Hire Kliff Kingsbury

[boyst]

I'm drinking so I can say it but damn it I miss being f single. Those girls were like an average Tuesday Thursday. ?

[ProcessAccepted]

38 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

His offensive evaluation has been dreadful to be kind.  Our offense is awful. 

65 points in the last 2 games. Personally I believe that there are signs that it's beginning to click. Jacksonville have a pretty good defense and we put up 24. It deserves more time to mature especially with the youth on this team.  

[Kelly the Dog]

Wasn't he on the Bills for a short while? 

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

I don't understand why the BIlls don't just mail Jordan Palmer a blank check to be the quarterback's coach for Allen and the Bills.  He seemed to do a great job between the draft and the start of the season working with Allen.  Of all the places this franchise can spend money, it seems like over paying for Palmer might be a smart move.  There is no "cap" on coaches salaries. If Allen continues to develop with Palmer's help, then every penny of that money spent will be a bargain.

 

Leave Daboll in place for another year to see what he can do with an offense with some talent on it,  bring in a real, accomplished quarterback coach to help Allen develop, and move Culley on to some other position.  Culley has spent all of his time in the league as a wide receiver's coach, maybe that would be a better fit for him in this organization. 

 

Honest question: but what has Palmer proven to be a qb coach?  There is a big business of combine/ draft QB “gurus” who never sniff the nfl.  These guys teach them certain skills to prepare for the combine and pro days.  

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Wasn't he on the Bills for a short while? 

It feels like we have had every washed up qb on our roster at one point.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question: but what has Palmer proven to be a qb coach?  There is a big business of combine/ draft QB “gurus” who never sniff the nfl.  These guys teach them certain skills to prepare for the combine and pro days.  

It feels like we have had every washed up qb on our roster at one point.

I think he was. Like in preseason. I will look it up. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

You know, looking at that picture a name popped into my head...Russ Brandon.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

EDIT: Yup. 2006.

"The Buffalo Bills signed Kingsbury in 2006 and he attended training camp with the Bills, but did not see any regular season action with the team.^[2]"

[ctk232]

19 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

With due respect, you don’t see the difference between being a failed first time head coach and a consistently bad OC?  I think Tech averaged around 40 points while KK was there.  He worked with the best young qb in the nfl and worked with the first overall pick this year. Daboll’s only “successes” have been with NE and Alabama, where we could have been successful there. 

 

This is is a bold move.  SM, as much as I doubt his football philosophy, isn’t going anywhere.  But the Rams fires their defensive minded coach to hire a young offensive one.  The same with the Bears. Mahomes has one of the best offensive coaches in the nfl.  Watson has an offensive head coach.  I’d argue that Allen is rawer than any of those guys. But Bills fans should be happy with our 14 point offense. 

I do see the difference and acknowledged his track record, but both arguments rely upon the premise of past experience regardless of how extensive, and ignore the present. KK could very well be a better OC than Daboll, I'm not arguing that, I'm simply saying Daboll has done enough with arguably the least amount of talent on an NFL offense this year to see where we are at next season. The other issue is if Allen does continue to progress, if Daboll is at all responsible or if Allen is acclimatizing to the playbook, moving on from Daboll this year could negatively impact Allen and require another year or two to have him brought up on a new scheme.

 

I also find it difficult to be so high on KK given his own track record. 40 pt per game in 2015 and 2016 (2013-2018 being his full tenure), 29 the year before and regressed in 17 and 18 if we're going solely on that metric. But he also went 35-40 and was fired after 5 years so I'm not sure his track record speaks for itself either. And yet, maybe he has learned and is doing more now as with any case study of past experience v. the present. In my mind you can't value one over the other but do need to take both into account. You also assume he was solely responsible for Mahomes development, and while my own guess would be he definitely had an influence, Mahomes greatest success has been under Reid in KC and believe much of what you're seeing is the result of Reid translating what Mahomes did in college effectively, not so much KK being the next guru.

 

Lastly, you believe the ppg this year for us are due to only Daboll? 14 point offense with Nate Peterman and Derek Anderson? Allen is certainly raw, like you say, so expecting anything more is a bit much. Not to mention our OL and WR woes. I don't excuse Daboll from the entirety of the blame, it is his offense to coordinate, but I'm hard pressed to believe what we are seeing this year is primarily the result of his incompetency as an OC. No one is saying we should be happy with the offense we have now, just that we need a full offensive roster before we put forth any absolutes one way or the other.

Edited November 27, 2018 by ctk232

[WhoTom]

Whether or not the Bills hire him, I'm glad his middle name is 'Timothy' and not 'Kevin."

[Inigo Montoya]

21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question: but what has Palmer proven to be a qb coach?  There is a big business of combine/ draft QB “gurus” who never sniff the nfl.  These guys teach them certain skills to prepare for the combine and pro days.  

 

Hey C.Biscuit, It's a good question, and I'm not pretending to be an expert here by any means.  My understanding is that a lot of Allen's issues had to do with the mechanics of his throwing motion.  Palmer has been able to help clean that up.  According to reports that I read, Allen's mechanics looked better at the Senior Bowl than they did at Wyoming, and he had better mechanics at the Combine than he did at the Senior Bowl, and better again at training camp than he did at the Combine.  I think that is because of Palmer's work.  I have to admit that I'm not sure when Palmer started working with Allen after the end of Wyoming's season but I know it was definitely before the Combine.

 

If Allen can become just a little more accurate with his throws that will pay huge dividends.  Learning how to read defences, how to slide in the pocket to avoid pressure, and deciding where to go with the ball is a separate skill from the mechanics of throwing the football, and to your point, I have no idea if Palmer can teach that.  If Palmer can't, then maybe that's where Daboll steps in or another coach steps in and Palmer can just focus on Allen's mechanics.  With Culley's years of experience teaching the wide receiver position, I always though he was a curious choice to be Allen's QB coach.

 

For the most important player on a franchise worth 1.5 billion dollars, it might be worth it to pay a little bit extra for a mechanics coach and a quarterbacks coach if that's what they need to do to give Allen the best chance to reach his potential.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Inigo Montoya

[Inigo Montoya]

15 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

I don't excuse Daboll from the entirety of the blame, it is his offense to coordinate, but I'm hard pressed to believe what we are seeing this year is primarily the result of his incompetency as an OC. No one is saying we should be happy with the offense we have now, just that we need a full offensive roster before we put forth any absolutes one way or the other.

 

Well said.  Give the man a chance to put an offense together when he has some players who are better able to execute his scheme.  We all know the offensive cupboard was pretty empty when Daboll walked in here.  It's great seeing some of the young guys starting to develop with their playing time and hopefully many of them will continue to develop over the last third of the season and be real contributors next season.   I think it's clear to most that the "Process" was to get their franchise QB and build the defense this season.  I suspect next season it will be time to build the offense. Let's see what Daboll can do with a legit offense before we cut the cord on him.

[Beast]

Hell, I’d hire Kliff Dinglebury if I thought he could bring us to the present from the 70’s.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Typical WEO.  You spent all offseason crushing Reid being overrated as an Offensive coach, now you’re giving him credit for Mahomes? Or Mahomes is such a special talent that his college coach didn’t help him get 50 tds in college?  Which one is it?  Or perhaps, and this is wild, maybe both guys really helped Mahomes develop into a record setting nfl qb?

 

Aaron Rodgers wont make it in the nfl because he was a Tedford qb.  Mahomes is just an air raid product.  Great franchise take risks.  But when you have an offense that is averaging 14 points/ game after scoring 60 the last 2 weeks, why upset that?

Our number 1 priority is developing Josh Allen.  Daboll has no history of being a dynamic offensive mind.  

 

For once, wouldn’t it be nice to the team that hired the young, gifted coach? Of course, we’ll fire Daboll and hire Nate Hackett because his dad gave McDermott a job once.

 

 

I was just referring to others who disagree with you here, pretty simple.

 

Anyway, we aren't talking about QBs, we are talking about hiring a guy who helped a very good QB throw a million TDs on a college team where QBs typically throw for a million yards and TDs, yet only 1 has made it in the NFL (including Kliff himself).. Doesn't that convince you that maybe it is the natural talent of Mahomes, and not just who "developed" him?  The rest of these Texas Tech guys were bums.  

 

Unless Klingsbury is bringing Hill, Hunt and Kelce with him, why would you roll the dice on a guy who has never coached against an NFL defense before?  I get the frustration with the offense, but you can't stump for a guy who you saw an article about (in which there is nothing that actually supports his readiness for NFL OC) just because "something must be done!!"

 

And you have to move off of the Mayfield connection.  Baker couldn't wait to get out of there.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

 

I love all the recommendations of bringing in a guy and adding talent as the solution and that McD is the issue. Maybe we just continue to add talent and let McD continue to do his thing. Next year we have picks and $$$$. KB will be gone and we'll get a comp pick there as well. 

 

Bills will get no comp picks - too many free agents they will hire.

[ProcessAccepted]

2 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Bills will get no comp picks - too many free agents they will hire.

You might be right Yoda ?

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, ctk232 said:

I do see the difference and acknowledged his track record, but both arguments rely upon the premise of past experience regardless of how extensive, and ignore the present. KK could very well be a better OC than Daboll, I'm not arguing that, I'm simply saying Daboll has done enough with arguably the least amount of talent on an NFL offense this year to see where we are at next season. The other issue is if Allen does continue to progress, if Daboll is at all responsible or if Allen is acclimatizing to the playbook, moving on from Daboll this year could negatively impact Allen and require another year or two to have him brought up on a new scheme.

 

I also find it difficult to be so high on KK given his own track record. 40 pt per game in 2015 and 2016 (2013-2018 being his full tenure), 29 the year before and regressed in 17 and 18 if we're going solely on that metric. But he also went 35-40 and was fired after 5 years so I'm not sure his track record speaks for itself either. And yet, maybe he has learned and is doing more now as with any case study of past experience v. the present. In my mind you can't value one over the other but do need to take both into account. You also assume he was solely responsible for Mahomes development, and while my own guess would be he definitely had an influence, Mahomes greatest success has been under Reid in KC and believe much of what you're seeing is the result of Reid translating what Mahomes did in college effectively, not so much KK being the next guru.

 

Lastly, you believe the ppg this year for us are due to only Daboll? 14 point offense with Nate Peterman and Derek Anderson? Allen is certainly raw, like you say, so expecting anything more is a bit much. Not to mention our OL and WR woes. I don't excuse Daboll from the entirety of the blame, it is his offense to coordinate, but I'm hard pressed to believe what we are seeing this year is primarily the result of his incompetency as an OC. No one is saying we should be happy with the offense we have now, just that we need a full offensive roster before we put forth any absolutes one way or the other.

Good post and dialogue.  My counters:

 

1) points by starter:  Peterman 6 points/ game (2 GS), Anderson 5.5 (2 GS), Barkley 41/ game!!!, and Allen 16.2/ game (6 GS).  I also put blame on the OC for the qb situation.  

 

Also, Hurts regressed under Daboll after being SEC offensive player of the year as a freshman. 

 

2) Texas tech started a true freshman and averaged 33.7 points.  

 

3)  what’s more likely:  KK thrives solely concentrating on offense in a nfl that values wide open offenses? Or Daboll fields another bottom 5 offense?  

 

Its not not so much about Daboll as it is about doing whatever you can to maximize a major investment.  The Titans stuck with Mularkey to keep consistency with Mariota.  The Bucs did the same thing with Dirk K.  

 

There is is no rule that says Buffalo has to watch awful offense.  Ask yourself what Dick Jauron would do or what Sean McVay would do?  Jauron keeps Daboll. 

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I was just referring to others who disagree with you here, pretty simple.

 

Anyway, we aren't talking about QBs, we are talking about hiring a guy who helped a very good QB throw a million TDs on a college team where QBs typically throw for a million yards and TDs, yet only 1 has made it in the NFL (including Kliff himself).. Doesn't that convince you that maybe it is the natural talent of Mahomes, and not just who "developed" him?  The rest of these Texas Tech guys were bums.  

 

Unless Klingsbury is bringing Hill, Hunt and Kelce with him, why would you roll the dice on a guy who has never coached against an NFL defense before?  I get the frustration with the offense, but you can't stump for a guy who you saw an article about (in which there is nothing that actually supports his readiness for NFL OC) just because "something must be done!!"

 

And you have to move off of the Mayfield connection.  Baker couldn't wait to get out of there.

 

 

Mayfield left because he was told he had to compete for his job.  I think he worked out well for everyone involved. KK also started Mayfield as a true walk on freshman.  So yeah, he deserves credit for helping his development.  

 

But great point about all those bums.  KK only recruited/ developed Mayfield (again a walk on) and Mahomes.  Clearly, he has no idea what he is doing.  Did you see Daboll’s work with Tom Brady???

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

That's too bad because he just finished reading his playbook.

 

Took him a long time 

[Mr. WEO]

21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Good post and dialogue.  My counters:

 

1) points by starter:  Peterman 6 points/ game (2 GS), Anderson 5.5 (2 GS), Barkley 41/ game!!!, and Allen 16.2/ game (6 GS).  I also put blame on the OC for the qb situation.  

 

Also, Hurts regressed under Daboll after being SEC offensive player of the year as a freshman. 

 

2) Texas tech started a true freshman and averaged 33.7 points.  

 

3)  what’s more likely:  KK thrives solely concentrating on offense in a nfl that values wide open offenses? Or Daboll fields another bottom 5 offense?  

 

Its not not so much about Daboll as it is about doing whatever you can to maximize a major investment.  The Titans stuck with Mularkey to keep consistency with Mariota.  The Bucs did the same thing with Dirk K.  

 

There is is no rule that says Buffalo has to watch awful offense.  Ask yourself what Dick Jauron would do or what Sean McVay would do?  Jauron keeps Daboll. 

Mayfield left because he was told he had to compete for his job.  I think he worked out well for everyone involved. KK also started Mayfield as a true walk on freshman.  So yeah, he deserves credit for helping his development.  

 

But great point about all those bums.  KK only recruited/ developed Mayfield (again a walk on) and Mahomes.  Clearly, he has no idea what he is doing.  Did you see Daboll’s work with Tom Brady???

 

 

Mayfield was a walk-on!  He was not a scholarship recruit.  He left because Klingfield couldn't see that he was obviously the better QB vs Webb (and he was obviously right!).  Yes, that worked out very well for Texas Tech LOL.

 

 

So...not recruited, not developed.  And, in keeping with this theme...

 

McVay was an assistant/position coach in the actual NFL for 5 seasons before he was named an OC.  Another horrible comparison that destroys your argument

 

 

I'm no fan of Daboll, I think he's a lightweight.  But then jumping to the conclusion that tossing some college guy with zero relevant experience into the most important coaching position on THIS team, is nuts.  It makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[atlbillsfan1975]

I’d like to see Daboll back another year. Personally I think he will put it together with Allen and get better. I also think he can help with draft analysis and FA players. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Mayfield was a walk-on!  He was not a scholarship recruit.  He left because Klingfield couldn't see that he was obviously the better QB vs Webb (and he was obviously right!).  Yes, that worked out very well for Texas Tech LOL.

 

 

So...not recruited, not developed.  And, in keeping with this theme...

 

McVay was an assistant/position coach in the actual NFL for 5 seasons before he was named an OC.  Another horrible comparison that destroys your argument

 

 

I'm no fan of Daboll, I think he's a lightweight.  But then jumping to the conclusion that some college guy with zero relevant experience into the most important coaching position on THIS team, is nuts.  It makes no sense whatsoever.

He started a true freshman walk on.  It was the first time ever a BCS school has ever done that.  

 

But awesome point.  The 1st time head coach started a true freshman walk on (who became the 1st overall pick), replaced him with a 3rd round pick, and then replaced him with the 10th overall pick who is setting nfl records.  Clearly, he has no idea what he is doing.