transplantbillsfan Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) It should be pretty clear winning is at least priority 1B. Priority 1A is clearly development of young players. But development of young players isn't mutually exclusive from winning. I proposed starting Peterman weeks ago to get a higher draft pick. It's pretty clear McBeane don't care how high their draft pick is, they care about Ws, even if they're fumbling their way through the season trying to get them. But in this process, they're finding a core group of players--mostly on defense--who will make up the nucleus of this team for years to come: Hughes (I think he's resigned) Lawson (I think he's resigned) Harrison Phillips Star Edmunds Milano Tre Hyde Poyer Zay Jones Dawkins Wyatt Teller Josh Allen (we hope) Now we go into an offseason with massive amounts of money to spend in Free Agency for the next couple of years. The problem is that you need to attract Free Agents with the team situation along with the finances. If Peterman started the entire year and we ended up with the #1 draft pick, that's one excellent non-QB we get, or maybe a couple after trading down. But Beane has proven to be pretty capable at finding gems later in the draft, so is the difference that great? But if we started Peterman and just absolutely sucked the rest of the year without showing any promise, who would we draw in at Free Agency? Obviously development is priority #1A, otherwise I believe Barkley would start against the Jags (and he still might). But with the benching and cutting of Peterman (FINALLY!!!), I think there's a clear signal that Beane and McDermott never wanted to tank and aren't trying to right now, they just SERIOUSLY screwed up the QB position. But in the end, I think our 6-10 to 8-8 record we'll end the season with will be enough to draw in some of the prized Free Agents this offseason at positions of need that we'll be looking for. And I suspect Kyle and Lorax are convinced to come back for one more run at something... But this time, a real run at something. Edited November 14, 2018 by transplantbillsfan 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 oy.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: oy.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 The long term vision trumps the next few Sundays. Period. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 The money attracts the free agents. In this day and age the only thing that would scare players off is ridiculous instability like the browns had for a few years. The Bills look to have coaching and managerial stability for the next few years, a young and upcoming roster. Who is gonna turn down a big payday? You have some players chasing a ring who have already cashed in bigtime and will sign a little cheaper for a contender and players looking for their first and maybe last real guaranteed contract. The notion players don’t want to play here needs to go, it’s all about that guaranteed cash, highest bidder wins 90% of the time 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Dont forget about Jordan Phillips.......this year is also about identifying all the talent and not just the draftees We have not been so luck on the offensive side of the ball 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 29 minutes ago, Augie said: The long term vision trumps the next few Sundays. Period. It does, but the next 6 Sundays (we play) are very much intertwined with that long term vision. 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: Dont forget about Jordan Phillips.......this year is also about identifying all the talent and not just the draftees We have not been so luck on the offensive side of the ball I wanted to mention both Phillips because I think #97 has been a great acquisition... I just wonder if he sticks. 13 minutes ago, Rc2catch said: The money attracts the free agents. In this day and age the only thing that would scare players off is ridiculous instability like the browns had for a few years. The Bills look to have coaching and managerial stability for the next few years, a young and upcoming roster. Who is gonna turn down a big payday? You have some players chasing a ring who have already cashed in bigtime and will sign a little cheaper for a contender and players looking for their first and maybe last real guaranteed contract. The notion players don’t want to play here needs to go, it’s all about that guaranteed cash, highest bidder wins 90% of the time The worse your team, the more money you need to throw at Free Agents. Sure, they'll still come, but the better your team looks, the better your negotiating stance financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChattanoogaBills Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 I do hope Josh Allen starts so we can still lose some games i think we would win with barkley starting. The higher the draft position the better the trade down will be for us. I dont really care about signing free agents i want young players from the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, ChattanoogaBills said: I do hope Josh Allen starts so we can still lose some games i think we would win with barkley starting. The higher the draft position the better the trade down will be for us. I dont really care about signing free agents i want young players from the draft. Starting Allen doesn't mean we're trying to lose and it doesn't mean we will. We're 2-2 in games Allen's started and finished. It just means we want to keep developing him and maybe show those FAs we have a solid young guy at QB. Edited November 14, 2018 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said: The worse your team, the more money you need to throw at Free Agents. Sure, they'll still come, but the better your team looks, the better your negotiating stance financially. What history generally shows is that guys go to whoever pays the most, winning team or losing. And yeah there are a few who don't do it that way. But probably 90% do. The ones who don't tend to be the guys looking for a third contract who've already made a ton of money. There are a few cases when it helps. Guys going with one-year prove-it contracts, especially if they play complementary positions like WR or RB, are going to want to be in good situations. A WR doesn't want to have a prove-it contract with a team with poor QBing and an RB looking for a prove-it contract doesn't want to joint a team with a poor OL. But overall it generally comes down to who pays the most. Oh, and yes, we were never tanking. Tanking is a basketball and hockey word. We were rebuilding and absolutely valuing the long-term over the short-term but you're right that it was never a pure rebuild where they gave zero thought to winning this year. They proved that the minute they hung on to Tyrod and Kyle Williams and Shady last year. Edited November 14, 2018 by Thurman#1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Winning should always be the top priority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Rc2catch said: The money attracts the free agents. In this day and age the only thing that would scare players off is ridiculous instability like the browns had for a few years. The Bills look to have coaching and managerial stability for the next few years, a young and upcoming roster. Who is gonna turn down a big payday? You have some players chasing a ring who have already cashed in bigtime and will sign a little cheaper for a contender and players looking for their first and maybe last real guaranteed contract. The notion players don’t want to play here needs to go, it’s all about that guaranteed cash, highest bidder wins 90% of the time Football players are just like the rest of us. What prompts the regular/everyday working person to change jobs? What do they consider important in an employer? I think most of us would admit that MONEY is the most important factor MOST of the time. No matter how much we may enjoy working somewhere, if a competitor offers a significant pay raise - then we would absolutely jump for the bigger salary. But at the same time, some people may not like picking up their home and moving. They may be willing to take less money from their current employer, so they can enjoy the stability of staying in one place. They may want to live close to family or friends, or not want to pull their kids out of their school district. Some may put emphasis on the work environment or what their boss is like. For football players, this would be choosing a GM or coach they have familiarity with (why the Bills have attracted so many from Carolina). Veterans may prefer a certain offensive or defensive scheme, which takes advantage of their skill set. And for every person that wants to live in warm weather, surrounded by exciting nightlife - there is another person who hates hot summers and enjoys the peace and quiet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 I'm not sure we need another thread on tanking versus not-tanking. Though, I suppose, Peterman's cutting adds a new wrinkle to the conversation. I personally never thought we were "tanking" per se. I'm sure McD and his staff try their hardest to win each week. And I don't believe Beane ever talks about intentionally losing games. But leading the league in dead money this year and then being #3 in available cap space next year is no accident. Beane did very little to make 2018 a successful year. He's doing a lot to make 2019 and beyond good years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said: I'm not sure we need another thread on tanking versus not-tanking. Though, I suppose, Peterman's cutting adds a new wrinkle to the conversation. I personally never thought we were "tanking" per se. I'm sure McD and his staff try their hardest to win each week. And I don't believe Beane ever talks about intentionally losing games. But leading the league in dead money this year and then being #3 in available cap space next year is no accident. Beane did very little to make 2018 a successful year. He's doing a lot to make 2019 and beyond good years. Great points. Beane and McDermott have been very clear on their philosophy of trying to win now while building for the future and, if one takes precedent over the other, it is the future. The choices they made, primarily last year, were going to make it more difficult to win this year; however, leave them with a greater ability to improve the team next year. This year was never about tanking, but, rather, about trying to win within the constraints they placed on themselves for what, they believe, are the long-term interests of the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Loves Bills Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Well said and a solid assessment. This is another way of stating what Coach McDermott said weeks ago: they are planning/playing for now AND the future in the best way they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, mjt328 said: Football players are just like the rest of us. What prompts the regular/everyday working person to change jobs? What do they consider important in an employer? I think most of us would admit that MONEY is the most important factor MOST of the time. No matter how much we may enjoy working somewhere, if a competitor offers a significant pay raise - then we would absolutely jump for the bigger salary. But at the same time, some people may not like picking up their home and moving. They may be willing to take less money from their current employer, so they can enjoy the stability of staying in one place. They may want to live close to family or friends, or not want to pull their kids out of their school district. Some may put emphasis on the work environment or what their boss is like. For football players, this would be choosing a GM or coach they have familiarity with (why the Bills have attracted so many from Carolina). Veterans may prefer a certain offensive or defensive scheme, which takes advantage of their skill set. And for every person that wants to live in warm weather, surrounded by exciting nightlife - there is another person who hates hot summers and enjoys the peace and quiet. I disagree with you. Money isn't necessarily the most important thing once you've reached a certain threshold of how much you make. Where you live, who you work with and work conditions are hugely important. I'm a public school teacher in the state of Hawai'i. When you factor in cost of living, we are some of the lowest paid teachers in the country. But I love my life where I live, where I work, and who I work with. If a school in North Dakota offered me 10 times more than what I currently make, I wouldn't accept. I think NFL players put a lot of thought into what teams they're going to play for, and when they end up on teams or in places that surprise people, you discover it's because they were offered SIGNIFICANTLY more by that unexpected team. Edited November 14, 2018 by transplantbillsfan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 I largely agree with the OP. The only time I think it might ever be beneficial to actually tank would be if a can't-miss QB prospect is going to be available, and you need a QB. Think Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning as seniors, but keep in mind that people advocated tanking for them the previous years, hoping that they'd come out as juniors*. That would've been dumb. (Hi, Jets!) I also wouldn't tank just because you need a QB and it's easier to get one at the top - like last year, for example. Otherwise, I'd rather have something positive to build on, as well as some degree of confidence that the team already has coaches and players that are worth keeping around. Tanking makes more sense in the NBA, where you usually only play 8-9 players a game, but even there, it doesn't generally work very well. Ask the Kings or Suns how quick high picks can take you back to the playoffs. *Yes, I know Luck came out as a redshirt junior, but in the real world, that was his senior year and he graduated from Stanford that year. He could've enrolled in grad school, but never gave any indications that he would, so I felt at the time that the risk of him not declaring for the draft was very low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 On 11/14/2018 at 6:23 AM, Cash said: I largely agree with the OP. The only time I think it might ever be beneficial to actually tank would be if a can't-miss QB prospect is going to be available, and you need a QB. Think Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning as seniors, but keep in mind that people advocated tanking for them the previous years, hoping that they'd come out as juniors*. That would've been dumb. (Hi, Jets!) I also wouldn't tank just because you need a QB and it's easier to get one at the top - like last year, for example. Otherwise, I'd rather have something positive to build on, as well as some degree of confidence that the team already has coaches and players that are worth keeping around. Tanking makes more sense in the NBA, where you usually only play 8-9 players a game, but even there, it doesn't generally work very well. Ask the Kings or Suns how quick high picks can take you back to the playoffs. *Yes, I know Luck came out as a redshirt junior, but in the real world, that was his senior year and he graduated from Stanford that year. He could've enrolled in grad school, but never gave any indications that he would, so I felt at the time that the risk of him not declaring for the draft was very low. McDermott and Beane have proven in 2 years they can draft and assess young talent pretty well. Dawkins, White, Milano, Edmonds, Johnson, Teller, Phillips... these are all guys who look like they might be steals where we drafted them. All we can do is cross our fingers that Allen pans out. If he can develop some over the offseason and McBeane utilize our CAP space (which is the most in the NFL) wisely this offseason and continue to draft well and probably bring back Kyle and Lorax for one more year... we will be contenders next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Tomato-Toe mah toe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 On 11/14/2018 at 8:09 AM, hondo in seattle said: I'm not sure we need another thread on tanking versus not-tanking. ... just the OP's incessant need for LAMP. nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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