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corta765

Coach Length To Put Program In

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24 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Imo Whaley had no self control. Sure, Sammy was "good." This is beyond dispute but for 2 1sts and a 4th and having no quarterback? Whaley just couldn't/wouldn't stop giving away our picks.

Sadly, Buffalo doesn't seem to be very high on the list of places where free agents want to play. For this reason we need more, not less draft choices and they need to be properly utilized. Whaley was decent at recognizing talent, but he never would have won here imo. Not with those stupid trades.

I think a worse trade is getting KB for anything more than a 7th. He's a bum. They should already know he's a bum for working with him for three years. It just goes to show Beane's talent evaluation, or his lacking in that area.

Edited by CuddyDark

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23 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

I think a worse trade is getting KB for anything more than a 7th. He's a bum. They should already know he's a bum for working with him for three years. It just goes to show Beane's talent evaluation, or his lacking in that area.

That too was bad.

 

We will know what the story is early on in the next draft. We have dire need at every offensive position. If they draft early round secondary and neglect WRs and OL, it would not surprise me if the franchise folds.

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1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Imo Whaley had no self control. Sure, Sammy was "good." This is beyond dispute but for 2 1sts and a 4th and having no quarterback? Whaley just couldn't/wouldn't stop giving away our picks.

Sadly, Buffalo doesn't seem to be very high on the list of places where free agents want to play. For this reason we need more, not less draft choices and they need to be properly utilized. Whaley was decent at recognizing talent, but he never would have won here imo. Not with those stupid trades.

 

I don't have any proof, but I'll go to my grave believing that the Watkins move was ordered from Brandon/Ralph. That move had marketing all over it. 

 

Fully agree with the rationale of WHY it was a bad move. Hated it at the time and now. 

Edited by Cash
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2 hours ago, Chemical said:

woahcool so meta!

 

another post about the negative posters complete with a misrepresentation of what people are saying.

 

Actually, as sarcastic as my post was meant to be, I believe it does represent some of the things I've seen posted on TSW over the past few weeks.

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4 hours ago, Cash said:

 

I still don't want McD or Beane fired at season's end (or earlier!), although I reserve the right to change my mind if things get even worse.  I think I advocated for giving McBeane 4 years when they were brought in, and in theory, I stand by that.  In practice, there's no excuse for putting an offense on the field that's this consistently bad.  I don't think they need to make the playoffs in 2019 to save their jobs or anything, but if 2019 is as bad as 2018, they shouldn't be with the team in 2020.  I would ideally like to have some amount of hope by the end of 2018 - young players getting better, the offense scoring on its own once in a while, etc.  But there NEEDS to be something to build on next year, or it's time to move on.  I don't think giving Dick Jauron more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Gregggggo more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Jeff Fisher more time would've helped the Rams.  I don't think giving John Fox more time would've helped the Bears.  For now, I'm willing to give McBeane more time, mostly because of last year.  

 

Oh I don't disagree with this. That's why I did say they are getting their shot with cap space and picks to build for next year. If the offense moves from historically bad to mildly below average that's fine as long as Allen shows progress also and the games are close. But yea I don't think he stays if they are nearly historically bad again regardless of continuity.

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34 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

How come Sean McVay didn’t need 4 years?

 

For starters, he had a very talented QB heading into his 2nd year and also one of if not the best RB in the game waiting for him.  That's a combination that not too many 1st time HCs get. 

 

In the history of the NFL, what McVay has been able to accomplish in his first 2 seasons is more of an anomaly, not the norm.

 

EDIT:  By saying that, I'm not trying to diminish what McVay has been able to do.  He's a heck of a coach but having the right pieces in place for him to install his offense has greatly helped. 

Edited by Maybe Someday

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On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:53 PM, corta765 said:

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

You wrote a lot of stuff in here.  I'll simplify it for you.  You aren't ***** without a QB!

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49 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Oh I don't disagree with this. That's why I did say they are getting their shot with cap space and picks to build for next year. If the offense moves from historically bad to mildly below average that's fine as long as Allen shows progress also and the games are close. But yea I don't think he stays if they are nearly historically bad again regardless of continuity.

 

Agreed. I hope that improvement happens. I worry that it won't. First, going from where we are now to something like 20th overall is probably like going from 31 to 1 - there's a long way to go. Second, we only have 3 picks in the first 3 rounds. Third, this regime has shown a propensity to trade up, which I'm generally against. Fourth, there aren't that many good free agents available. We'll see though. If Allen makes a big leap (maybe via not being coached by a WR coach?!), that alone will go a long way. 

 

The other scenario that worries me is that due to feeling the heat, McBeane go all in on FA spending, winding up with a bunch of bad contracts and a 7-9 team. I'd rather see a few Micah Hyde type signings and roll over a bunch of space. In an ideal world, we'd eventually use that space to re-sign our own (good) players. 

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On 11/7/2018 at 11:34 AM, K-9 said:

Who is this coach Length you speak of and when did we hire him to put a program in? 

Coach Length is a locker room legend.

 

How dare you speak ill of his program?

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On 11/7/2018 at 7:53 PM, corta765 said:

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

No. 

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On 11/7/2018 at 2:34 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

the bottom line is most of these arrogant ego coaches blow out perfectly good players already in place. Then in all their divine wisdom have to go out shopping for new players that hopefully fits their philosophy. The great coaches play to to strengths of the players already on the roster. Rex and McD are the classic examples of this.

 

 

Who are are these great coaches that do not change their roster.  I keep hearing guys like McVay for this - when in reality since he arrived the entire WR core, 1/2 the OLine, The D line, the secondary - have all been changed out.  In his 2 years well over 50% of the starters are new.  The difference between Buffalo and LAR was they had the cheap QB in place and were able to begin to spend FA money as soon as McVay arrived.  The Bills had to clear some cap space because of the timing and the contracts given to try and win under Rex.

 

The truth is all coaches change the locker room and the players to fit what they want.  The timing and the amount they can spend varies because of the salary cap.  

 

I think people confuse immediate success and rebuild with changing or not changing the roster, but teams like the Rams changed a large percentage of the roster, but because they had a huge amount to spend - they brought in improved players rather than having to fix things first.

 

Even places with young offensive minded coaches like SF/Chicago have moved a large portion of the roster to fit their current needs ( see Chicago’s WRs).

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On 11/7/2018 at 9:57 PM, hondo in seattle said:

The Steelers have had 3 coaches since 1969 and have gone 758-458-2 with 6 SB victories.

 

The Bills have had 18 coaches over that same span with slightly different results.  

 

Maybe our leadership model is wrong?

 

 

(Sidebar: The Steelers have had the same guy - Kevin Colbert - running the draft since 2000.  There might be something to be said for stability).  

Everyone here wants continuity but it needs to be lead by the right people. These guys are not the answer so we should move on. 

 

The biggest prb with this front office / coaches is philosophical . They just dont got the right mind set to bulid this team. Nor do they have the right people or the answers to develop a QB. Not one guy on his staff has ever developed a QB.

Edited by BillsFan1988

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1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Who are are these great coaches that do not change their roster.  I keep hearing guys like McVay for this - when in reality since he arrived the entire WR core, 1/2 the OLine, The D line, the secondary - have all been changed out.  In his 2 years well over 50% of the starters are new.  The difference between Buffalo and LAR was they had the cheap QB in place and were able to begin to spend FA money as soon as McVay arrived.  The Bills had to clear some cap space because of the timing and the contracts given to try and win under Rex.

 

The truth is all coaches change the locker room and the players to fit what they want.  The timing and the amount they can spend varies because of the salary cap.  

 

I think people confuse immediate success and rebuild with changing or not changing the roster, but teams like the Rams changed a large percentage of the roster, but because they had a huge amount to spend - they brought in improved players rather than having to fix things first.

 

Even places with young offensive minded coaches like SF/Chicago have moved a large portion of the roster to fit their current needs ( see Chicago’s WRs).

I completely disagree with the whole cap argument. The only guy they couldn't afford to pay was Gilmore. They were not in "cap hell."

 

For better or worse, they decided to move on from the talent that was on the roster believing they could find better players who fit in with their version of "culture."

 

They were pretty much like most middling teams; a QB away. Now they have a QB with a ton of question marks and huge holes to fill pretty much everywhere on the offensive side of the ball. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

How come Sean McVay didn’t need 4 years?

 

Because when McVay was hired the Rams were at the point the Bills will be next year.

 

Lots of Cap space to sign FAs, a young cheap QB, and lots of draft picks to begin trading for players.  

 

If you think McVay comes to Buffalo and has even a semblance of the success he had in LA - I would call you crazy.

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7 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I completely disagree with the whole cap argument. The only guy they couldn't afford to pay was Gilmore. They were not in "cap hell."

 

For better or worse, they decided to move on from the talent that was on the roster believing they could find better players who fit in with their version of "culture."

 

They were pretty much like most middling teams; a QB away. Now they have a QB with a ton of question marks and huge holes to fill pretty much everywhere on the offensive side of the ball. 

 

 

 

 

They were a middling team with a 16 million dollar QB that was not good, a WR in Sammy Watkins that would have required us to pay what about 15 million this year, guys like Dareus that was making huge money, but had been an issue under the last 2 HCs and had already been late for things under McDermott, an over paid TE, etc.

 

If they tried to keep that middling team together they could have, but that meant the issues with the salary cap would continue for the next several years.  They elected to try and eliminate as much of those future burdens as possible all within 1 year to begin to build what they want.

 

They knew they could not afford o keep doing what had been done under the previous regime and continue to pay for guys that were not productive for long term.

 

I agree they could have done things very different, but then we would be sitting here with a better team, but no way to improve and slowly trying to make changes.  It was either rip the band-aid off (take the cap hits and know that in 2019 you will have 90 million) or slowly peel the band-aid (keep the players and slowly change them out, but know that we would have 10-15 million per year until guys like Dareus & Clay were gone).

 

I do not agree with all of the moves, but I understand it.  The Rams have basically gone all in on this year because they have brought in a ton of guys with 1 year contracts - so the money they spent to resign guys that kicks in next year will mean many of these players are gone.  

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8 hours ago, BeginnersMind said:

There is NO DOUBT that the two year turnover machine that is the Bills needs to stop. Of all those guys who got 3 or less years, only Ryan earned his firing. He was the worst. The rest deserved longer tenures, even the ones I didn’t like!

 

Next year the trend needs to be upwards. and year 4 must be a clear season of depth and strength with playoff berths in the offing for 4-5 years possible. I’d give McD 5 years and only pull the plug if year 4 is a disaster. 

No it was painfully obvious that the guys who were fired earned it. 

 

Mularkey - final season was the only memorable thing, was able to get okay Offense out of team with Drew Bledsoe, but couldn't beat the Steelers backups for the playoffs.  Was an embarassing end, and he opted not to be the Head coach amongst the regime change in the FO.

 

Jauron (yawn) - fielded a roster that was short on talent and was good at getting decent play out of little talent, but didn't do much better with better talent.  It was a long 4 years.  He deserved to go, and the Offense was a joke.

 

Gailey and Nix bottomed out in year 1, got better in the start of year 2 (the Fitzmagic early season run) and then were middling the rest of the way until it was clear the team wasn't going anywhere under Gailey, especially with poor Defensive coaching.

 

So then they hire Marrone, who brings in a whole new staff and a DC that knows what he is doing, but they lost a serviceable QB in Fitz and hit reset with EJ, a poor choice for a franchise QB - they play decent the first year considering the QB position lumps they expected and then Marrone gets into it with the FO about personnel, the Bills get Orton, hire Schwartz and have a decent season predicated on solid defense and pedestrian offense at 9-7.  Marrone opts out.

 

The two guys who quit after going 9-7 would've been nice to see coach a little longer, not that I'm fondly remembering their tenures, but they achieved a winning record.  The guys that were fired simply weren't good head coaches, and their careers post-Buffalo speak for themselves. 

 

Jauron, Gailey and Rex all earned their firings and it was all painfully clear by the time it happened in each scenario that it was the right course.  What it shows is that they have had poor organizational structure that can't identify what works in the NFL, how to identify a good coach and how to make good personnel moves in a consistent way.  The coaching is a big deal, but the problems don't begin or end at the coaching staff.  Sure ultimately, those guys being hired aren't getting the job done, but neither are the guys bringing in the coaches and players.

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1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

How come Sean McVay didn’t need 4 years?

 

Beacuse McVay had a #1 drafted QB, Todd Gurley, an off season of additions that included Robert Woods WR and Andrew Whiteworth at OL along with one of the top 3 defensive players in Aaron Donald. Your also discounting that McD made the playoffs with a ragtag bunch.

 

Perspective people come on

1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

You wrote a lot of stuff in here.  I'll simplify it for you.  You aren't ***** without a QB!

 

Also true and something the Bills in terms of drafting suck so hard at. Which is why IMO if a coach doesn't get set time to get his guys its even more of a tire fire.

1 hour ago, BillsFan1988 said:

No. 

YES

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On 11/7/2018 at 2:36 PM, Soda Popinski said:

2018 is the full tear down

2019 is the full rebuild

2020 is when we should expect results. 

 

NFL fans have such low expectations for coaches/GMs.

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Much of the failures of previous regimes, has to do with the inability of the HC to find the right people to run things for them. Gailey actually did have some talent on D, but couldn't find a decent DC. Jauron never found an OC, although the first guy he had, might have been decent given better talent to work with (Fairchild, iirc).

 

Marrone might have been an exception to this - hiring Schwartz after Pettine was a terrific move, but while he came from an offensive background, he had next to no play-calling experience, and neither did Hackett, who he let do it. Marrone also let his ego get the better of him.

 

As others have also pointed out, the biannual change from a 4-3 to a 3-4 D hasn't helped either - we keep using up picks on specific defensive types, while largely neglecting the offense.

 

My current biggest concern, would be that we are going down a similar path again, with a HC who doesn't appear to know much about offense - unless it's what to do to stop it.

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5 minutes ago, Julio Hopkins said:

 

NFL fans have such low expectations for coaches/GMs.

 

In the context of the Bills or a club that needs a rebuild that's a relatively reasonable timeframe. Yea if your team is in a retooling mode dumping a coach after two years can be possible and make sense. But if the freakin Browns could give Hue two and half years during their rebuild McD should get 3 minimum.

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Just now, corta765 said:

 

In the context of the Bills or a club that needs a rebuild that's a relatively reasonable timeframe. Yea if your team is in a retooling mode dumping a coach after two years can be possible and make sense. But if the freakin Browns could give Hue two and half years during their rebuild McD should get 3 minimum.

 

Teams shouldn't ever hire coaches who plan on doing a full rebuild.  It doesn't work.

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4 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

In the context of the Bills or a club that needs a rebuild that's a relatively reasonable timeframe. Yea if your team is in a retooling mode dumping a coach after two years can be possible and make sense. But if the freakin Browns could give Hue two and half years during their rebuild McD should get 3 minimum.

The second we start using the Browns as some kind of barometer is the second we should just fold as an organization.

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On 11/7/2018 at 12:53 PM, corta765 said:

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

 

with the Pegulas earning their sea legs I believe they want to stick with McD like the Steelers do with their coaches.

 

 

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