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kbarrettb

Good Head Coaches

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On 11/6/2018 at 4:05 PM, Watkins90 said:

I count 13 defensive minded head coaches.  Of those 13, Rivera, McDermott, Lewis, Tomlin, Zimmer, Carroll, Bill B., and Quinn have made the playoffs in the last three seasons. Three — Matt Patricia, Steve Wilkes, and Mike Vrabel — are in their first year. Bowles and Joseph are awful. 

Of the ones you mentioned BB, Carroll and Tonkin can be argued as top 5 HC in the NFL. 

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3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

2017 champion Eagles: #7 offense, #4 defense

2016 champion Pats: #4 offense, #8 defense

2015 champion Broncos: #16 offense, #1 defense

2014 champion Pats: #11 offense, #13 defense

2013 champion Seahawks: #18 offense, #1 defense

 

Very arguable indeed. The defenses average a lot better than the offenses during the last five years that you mentioned.

How? Lol. The offences were basically all top 3, where these are top 10 for the most part. How would that average out to be better?..

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16 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

Ok if you’re saying you can win with a defensive minded head coach that’s fair. I would still take my chances with an offensive head coach but you’re right there are multiple ways to win.

 

In regards to my stats, it was to show you basically need an elite offence to win a super bowl in the past 4 years and probably 5 after this year.

 

I am not saying defence doesn’t matter. But it really doesn’t matter as much as offence. If I looked up the defences that went to the super bowl in the past 4 years and the elite teams of this year so far,  I can almost guarantee at the top of my head no one has even a top 5 defence with the exception of Denver. Maybeee Seattle?

 

Either way, stats show the past 4-5 years that it is way more important to have an elite offence rather than an elite defence. That’s pretty inarguable in my opinion.

 

This was not a conversation about whether you need a good offense or not, obviously that’s important.  Not once did I downplay the importance of an offense.  This isn’t a conversation even about style of play. 

 

Its a conversarion about the HC and the false narrative that you have to have an offensive minded HC to field a good offense and win the SB, which is false.  Many of the teams you cited for offenses have a defensive HC.  In fact almost every single team you mentioned with the exception of the 2018 teams have a defensive HC or had one when they were in the SB.  

Edited by Alphadawg7

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5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This was not a conversation about whether you need a good offense or not, obviously that’s important.  Not once did I downplay the importance of an offense.  This isn’t a conversation even about style of play. 

 

Its a conversarion about the HC and the false narrative that you have to have an offensive minded HC to field a good offense and win the SB, which is false.  Many of the teams you cited for offenses have a defensive HC.  In fact almost every single team you mentioned with the exception of the 2018 teams have a defensive HC or had one when they were in the SB.  

Ya fair enough. Wasn’t sure of your overall point which is why I put that in brackets earlier. I understand what you’re saying now

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Good head coaches can coach both sides of the ball. McDermott can coach defense. 

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3 hours ago, The_Dude said:

Good head coaches can coach both sides of the ball. McDermott can coach defense. 

Yes he can.

 

That said he has no clue about the offense like so many failed defensive coaches and some we had here already.  I don't trust this FO to find quality offensive players next off season judging by the way they screwed up this past season.

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On argument in support of having a good, offensively oriented HC is this:

 

Really competent coordinators tend to be promoted to HC; if you landed a top notch, innovative OC, he would likely be snatched from you to be someone's HC before too long.


So then just make sure the brilliant offensive guy is your HC in the first place.  He won't go anywhere then.

 

McD is one of many HCs around the league who have been over-promoted.

 

I think he would be a very good defensive coordinator and that's his niche.  

 

 

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Are you seriously following your sentence saying there's a 2:1 ratio of offensive coaches and defensive coaches with the conclusion there are more successful offensive coaches and that proves which is better?

 

THAT JUST PROVES A SUCCESSFUL COACH IS TWICE AS LIKELY TO BE OFFENSIVE BECAUSE... EVERY COACH IS TWICE AS LIKELY TO BE OFFENSIVE.

 

But let's see.. 2013 John Harbaugh: defense, 2014 Pete Carroll: defense, 2015 Belicheck: defense, 2016 ??? (Wade Phillips' defense) 2017 Belicheck: defense, 2018 Pederson: offense

 

So if the last 4 of 5 SB winning HCs are defensive, it means they do pretty darn well representing 1/3 of the league yet winning 5/6 Superbowls.

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On 11/6/2018 at 3:50 PM, Rc2catch said:

Rivera is a pretty good coach, also Marvin Lewis despite the playoff failures. Tomlin. Harbaugh. Just off the top of my head, quite a few super bowl appearances there 

 

Bellycheck

 

 

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11 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Are you seriously following your sentence saying there's a 2:1 ratio of offensive coaches and defensive coaches with the conclusion there are more successful offensive coaches and that proves which is better?

 

THAT JUST PROVES A SUCCESSFUL COACH IS TWICE AS LIKELY TO BE OFFENSIVE BECAUSE... EVERY COACH IS TWICE AS LIKELY TO BE OFFENSIVE.

 

But let's see.. 2013 John Harbaugh: defense, 2014 Pete Carroll: defense, 2015 Belicheck: defense, 2016 ??? (Wade Phillips' defense) 2017 Belicheck: defense, 2018 Pederson: offense

 

So if the last 4 of 5 SB winning HCs are defensive, it means they do pretty darn well representing 1/3 of the league yet winning 5/6 Superbowls.

Its skewed because everyone thinks Bellichick is defense. Ever ask yourself who taught McDaniels.

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18 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

Its skewed because everyone thinks Bellichick is defense. Ever ask yourself who taught McDaniels.

I was on my way to putting together a coherent response to your point, but your avatar is making me too ill. Good strategy! :sick:

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On 11/6/2018 at 3:50 PM, Rc2catch said:

Rivera is a pretty good coach, also Marvin Lewis despite the playoff failures. Tomlin. Harbaugh. Just off the top of my head, quite a few super bowl appearances there 

 

Each of these guys grew up on the defensive side of the ball, but they're just "head coaches" now in the sense that they don't have any real impact on play calling. They rely on their coordinators to call the games and install the game plans and it works for them. 

 

All of these guys are CEO type coaches. 

 

Guys like Andy Reid, Sean McVay, Sean Payton and Doug Pederson are a bit different in the sense that they actually call the offense. They are 100% in charge of what's going on on the offensive side of the ball, and each of them has hired a very experienced Defensive Coordinator to run that side of the ball. 

 

Recently the NFL seems to be moving more and more towards the second group of coaches being the more successful hires in recent years. You need one of these elite offensive play callers as your HC, because if you just have them as a coordinator it's inevitable that they will get a head coaching job somewhere. 

 

IMO it's a lot harder to find a really good offensive play caller than it is a defensive coordinator. 

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17 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

On argument in support of having a good, offensively oriented HC is this:

 

Really competent coordinators tend to be promoted to HC; if you landed a top notch, innovative OC, he would likely be snatched from you to be someone's HC before too long.


So then just make sure the brilliant offensive guy is your HC in the first place.  He won't go anywhere then.

 

McD is one of many HCs around the league who have been over-promoted.

 

I think he would be a very good defensive coordinator and that's his niche.  

 

 

 

This could be the truth, especially if the defensive minded head coach who knows nothing about offense isn't even good at evaluating and selecting the right offensive coordinator, which McDermott is already 0-for-2 at. 

 

I don't mind a defensive minded head coach if he has somewhat of a handle on the offense and can hire the right OC to carry out his vision. 

 

I know people put up numbers about how teams led by great defenses can still win a superbowl...however, what's being left out is it is very difficult to keep an elite defense together for multiple years. Your best shot at having a team that is a perennial contender is developing a franchise QB. And I think that's the biggest question that needs to be asked of McDermott...is he the right head coach to develop one? To me that's an emphatic no, starting with him and the horrible OC's he's hired. 

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Any recent issue of Cosmo should give you all the tips and pointers you want.  No need to hire a head coach in my opinion.  Just relax your jaw, keep those teeth out of harms way and experiment. 

 

Good luck, OP!! You're doing the lord's work.

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3 hours ago, Chris66 said:

Its skewed because everyone thinks Bellichick is defense. Ever ask yourself who taught McDaniels.

He's still a former defensive coordinator which is the metric OP is going by. You spend long enough as HC in the NFL and your specialty isn't going to always translate to that side of the ball being amazing (although it is many years the Pats win). 

 

Mike Tomlin is a former DC and that regime whiffs on defenders and nails offense. The line of recievers they've had is probably the best the NFL has ever seen.

 

OP's point is McD is a former defensive coordinator and that doesn't work. The above 2 are former DCs that worked.

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