How many coaches/GMs survive a tank?

[vorpma]

53 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

Serious question. Not a fan of giving away talent in order to bring in "your guys" since I believe in tanking breeds losing. I'm just wondering if anyone can come up with an example from any sport, where a coach/gm started a tank and where there to see a championship.

Tanking breeds losing; what about mediocrity for 16 years, sign a big name free agent - take your pick - make a coaching change, draft poorly and stay in the hunt until December then watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January.  Build up excitement during the off season, keep fan favorites because you are so close (not in reality though), and watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January. Why is it so difficult to understand this is an organization in desperate need of a "rebuild" bringing new culture and identity? Your way we stay mediocre for the next twenty years and repeat the off season hope to the January without the Bills! 2001 - 2016 a total organizational failure! Me, I'm sticking with the rebuild and from I have seen from the "Scientific TBD Polls," so are many others who get it!

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

They had a real QB while he sat!!!!  You don’t get this????  This is nothing like what KC did. 

 

The point is that it was a throwaway year.  The only difference is they kept their QB while we traded ours.  Sure, we could have middled if we kept TT, just like we have in the past and just like KC did with Smith, but that doesn't get us anywhere. 

[vorpma]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

Serious question. Not a fan of giving away talent in order to bring in "your guys" since I believe in tanking breeds losing. I'm just wondering if anyone can come up with an example from any sport, where a coach/gm started a tank and where there to see a championship.

BTW, how many Bills coaches survived mediocrity since 2001? 

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

The point is that it was a throwaway year.  The only difference is they kept their QB while we traded ours.  Sure, we could have middled if we kept TT, just like we have in the past and just like KC did with Smith, but that doesn't get us anywhere. 

Your trying to use rational thinking against pure emotion and frustration, good luck!

[frostbitmic]

If a GM and HC decide to tank a season, more likely than not they have the blessing of the owner of the team otherwise it's plain and simply going rogue.

 

That said, the offense they put together for this season is incompetence at best if it isn't a tank.

[mannc]

13 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Its literally working for KC right now.  They drafted their future, sat him for a year, and are now moving forward. 

If you think the comprehensive offensive collapse we are witnessing in Buffalo bears any similarity whatsoever to what has happened in KC, then I think this discussion is pointless.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, vorpma said:

BTW, how many Bills coaches survived mediocrity since 2001? 

Your trying to use rational thinking against pure emotion and frustration, good luck!

I am trying just so hard. 

 

Reasonable minds can disagree on so many things.  But to think that the failure of the offense THIS year means anything is just so beyond ignorant. 

Just now, mannc said:

If you think the comprehensive offensive collapse we are witnessing in Buffalo bears any similarity whatsoever to what has happened in KC, then I think this discussion is pointless.

 

Its the same basic strategy.  Draft a QB that needs to develop, hold off on the development, and then go full bore the following year.  The only difference is they kept their middling QB whereas we traded ours.  Sure, if we had TT we would be middle of the road, just like KC was last year, but where would that get us? 

[John from Riverside]

Sorry guys....you dont have an offense this bad and teh OC survives all of it unles it was part of the plan

 

Its not necessarily a tank....the just are not doing everything they can on the offensive side

[jahnyc]

I would feel better about the future of this rebuild if we had more draft picks in next year's draft.  I understand that we have more than our usual allotment, but the additional picks we have next year are after the third round.  We may hit on one or more of those picks, but chances of finding quality players are higher in the early rounds.  I suppose we can trade down if there are opportunities to do so, but this team also needs pro bowl caliber players, and if we have a top five pick, we may have a shot at that kind of a player.  That would be hard to pass up.

[JerseyBills]

54 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

This ain’t a tank. It’s a collapse. How many GMs survive completely destroying the QB position after making the playoffs (no matter how they made the playoffs) the previous year.  But your point is valid! 

But we all expected to be a 4-5 win team. At least on here , I remember the majority of posters expecting Bufffalo to take a step back , mainly because the QB position.  So then it happens and everyone is freaking out, Even calling for the firing of McBeane!

 

Did they mess up the QB position? Yes. But it's ok , McBeane has said from day 1, this is going to take time and they are all about LONG TERM success. And they laid a phenomenal foundation on D,  with the most dead money in the league , it's all about next year and beyond. They have a TON of resources to fix the O, get a suitable backup for Allen , and fix the WR group.

 

They get a pass from me. Again , we all knew the 19-20 season is when we'd be legit contenders. They deserve and definitely will get that opportunity. I personally think McD is the real deal and just needs the appropriate talent. He's 11-13 but when you look at the talent level , most coaches, especially first year, would have a worse record. 

 

I just don't understand how fans expected a certain outcome and when it happens , they're calling for McBeanes head on a stake! Mind boggling really , it stinks we are essentially done at the halfway point but if you can't see that they have a clear vision and have built a fantastic core on defense and have 90 mil and solid draft capital to get the O on track . They should be set for long term success starting next year.. 

[row_33]

39 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Its literally working for KC right now.  They drafted their future, sat him for a year, and are now moving forward. 

 

i wasn't aware that KC needed a miraculous resussssitation to get back to decent football

 

they have been pretty darn good for a LONG TIME!!!

 

 

[mannc]

2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I am trying just so hard. 

 

Reasonable minds can disagree on so many things.  But to think that the failure of the offense THIS year means anything is just so beyond ignorant. 

 

Its the same basic strategy.  Draft a QB that needs to develop, hold off on the development, and then go full bore the following year.  The only difference is they kept their middling QB whereas we traded ours.  Sure, if we had TT we would be middle of the road, just like KC was last year, but where would that get us? 

You started out saying the Bills were tanking.  Now you're saying they are just following the KC Chiefs' model (which most certainly was not a tank). At any rate, here are a few of the differences: 

• As you pointed out, KC kept its veteran QB, thus assuring the team would not set NFL records for offensive futility when forced to play a failed 5th round draft pick and/or a 35-year old street free agent at QB.  KC's strategy also meant that they weren't forced to throw their rookie QB to the wolves when their historically inept 5th round pick flamed out in the first half of the first game of the year.   
• KC had offensive weapons all over the place.  They actually tried to add to that arsenal, rather than giving it away. 
• KC has a head coach who actually knows offensive football and knows that the way to succeed in the NFL is not by losing. 
• KC's strategy did not result in a "lost year" but rather a playoff appearance.

Again, there is absolutely no resemblance between this year's Bills and anything that has happened in KC recently.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by mannc

[JerseyBills]

16 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I am trying just so hard. 

 

Reasonable minds can disagree on so many things.  But to think that the failure of the offense THIS year means anything is just so beyond ignorant. 

 

Its the same basic strategy.  Draft a QB that needs to develop, hold off on the development, and then go full bore the following year.  The only difference is they kept their middling QB whereas we traded ours.  Sure, if we had TT we would be middle of the road, just like KC was last year, but where would that get us? 

Very Well said!! 

We could be 5-3 with Taylor but it'd mean nothing except a lower draft pick. He's not winning a championship and not the answer for the long term

[Captain Hindsight]

This year sucks, but at least its not a half assed rebuild. Tear it down and do it if your going to do it.

 

I hope it works out

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Cowboys, Jimmy Johnson 1989 (1-15). Steelers, Chuck Noll 1969 (1-13). 

 

Can't speak to Chuck Noll.

 

Although the Cowboy one is often cited I'm not so sure.  I lived in Dallas and was a HUGE Cowboy fan during the entire Tom Landry era and continued to follow and root for them somewhat a few years after that.

 

In 1988, the Cowboys were 3-13 under Tom Landry. It was a bad team.  But do you really think HOF Coach Tom Landry was tanking that year for draft picks?  Really?  They also already had Michael Irvin and some of the OLine (Mark Tuinei and The Kitchen) and some D players they made the run with. 

 

The JJs fell into the #1 pick.  And it was fortunately in a year with a really good college QB coming out.  Results may have been different if it was a class like say 2014,  It was most definitely not a lose on purpose to tank and dump talent for them.  they didn't have that much talent to dump and several of the veterans like Danny White and Randy White retired.

[BillsFan4]

Reggie McKenzie survived tearing down the Oakland Raiders.

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/oakland-raiders/post/_/id/2375/davis-speaks-on-deconstruction-of-raiders

 

I am guessing there are probably more who have. But I’d have to look into it. I just happened to remember the Oakland story because I was out in Cali at the time. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by BillsFan4

[mannc]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

A tank for who?

Talent!

[JerseyBills]

5 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

This year sucks, but at least its not a half assed rebuild. Tear it down and do it if your going to do it.

 

I hope it works out

It's already worked on defense. . This D has 3 starters from when McD took over and is a top 5 unit littered with talent.

They can heavily focus on offense this off season through draft and/or FA , as well as add some pieces to the D if deemed necessary!

[uticaclub]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

It's already worked on defense. . This D has 3 starters from when McD took over and is a top 5 unit littered with talent.

They can heavily focus on offense this off season through draft and/or FA , as well as add some pieces to the D if deemed necessary!

The defense is a paper tiger. Whenever a team needs to score, they do. There's no reason to show anything against the Bills, just hold on to the ball. Tom Brady could have knelt every play and we still lose 7-6.

 

Oh wait, I forgot how dominate we were against Baltimore, Chargers & Indy this year

[US Egg]

Regarding tanks, McBeane, like Gruden, not only think they'll survive one, they feel they can blow it up and march on:

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

9 minutes ago, mannc said:

You started out saying the Bills were tanking.  Now you're saying they are just following the KC Chiefs' model (which most certainly was not a tank). At any rate, here are a few of the differences: 

• As you pointed out, KC kept its veteran QB, thus assuring the team would not set NFL records for offensive futility when forced to play a failed 5th round draft pick and/or a 35-year old street free agent at QB.  KC's strategy also meant that they weren't forced to throw their rookie QB to the wolves when their historically inept 5th round pick flamed out in the first half of the first game of the year.   
• KC had offensive weapons all over the place.  They actually tried to add to that arsenal, rather than giving it away. 
• KC has a head coach who actually knows offensive and knows that the way to succeed in the NFL is not by losing. 
• KC's strategy did not result in a "lost year" but rather a playoff appearance.

Again, there is absolutely no resemblance between this year's Bills and anything that has happened in KC recently.

 

 

 

A fair argument.  But you are confusing the result with the intent.  The moment KC drafted Mahomes it was clear that 2016 was no longer about win now but win in the future.  Now, granted, things went very differently for them- based on what you outlined- but the premise is the same - the redshirt year is irrelevant.  Sure, they made the playoffs, and we may have as well if we kept Tyrod, but our sole purpose this year (including in the off season) was to get capital, get the QB, and build for the future.  When they chose Allen, it was a giant flag that this year was never going to be a success.