T master Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 10:38 AM, Boatdrinks said: Many players do. Heck Bruce Smith took a little time to get it together. Bills should have kept Watkins. He’d be the primary weapon on this team. He'd be the only weapon in the WR room ? !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 46 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: I think 16 million a year for a receiver like Watkins was slightly overpriced at the time, but it won't be as the cap increases and more guys get paid. With that said, you keep saying "so what" that Andy Reid overpaid Watkins. But why do you disregard that? The guy made a huge difference for the Bills offense and Tyrod when he was in the lineup and one of the BEST OFFENSIVE MINDS in football felt it was necessary to give him that contract. Reid understands what a player like Watkins does. At times you have to overpay.... especially for a differece maker for your offense. What's sad and also ironic is many are predicting we don't even come close to spending up to the 90M and yes this # will go up every year. Would keeping Sammy & Robert really been that brutal. What's the point of drafting these guys if we can't keep any of them. Who's next, Zay? We'd sure have a better and more accurate read on Allen if he had decent wrs to throw to. Not these stiffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 53 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: I think 16 million a year for a receiver like Watkins was slightly overpriced at the time, but it won't be as the cap increases and more guys get paid. With that said, you keep saying "so what" that Andy Reid overpaid Watkins. But why do you disregard that? The guy made a huge difference for the Bills offense and Tyrod when he was in the lineup and one of the BEST OFFENSIVE MINDS in football felt it was necessary to give him that contract. Reid understands what a player like Watkins does. At times you have to overpay.... especially for a differece maker for your offense. This is nonsense. Reid is no offensive genius. He overpaid for useless Sammy Watkins. Unless we're comparing Mahomes to Allen of course. In those discussions, Andy Reid is the football equivalent of Russell Crowe in a Beautiful Mind. Even Peterman would be smashing records if given the privilege to operate in his sci-fi like offensive concepts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Would the Bills be better off having Sammy at $16 million (and it could have possibly been cheaper if we signed him earlier) and adding to him with weapons in the draft or FA for Josh Allen? Or having a bunch of garbage for Allen (who shouldn’t have been playing in the first place) to throw to and look completely lost? Sammy was supposed to D Hopkins and obviously that didn’t happen. But he would easily be the best receiver on this team and a huge weapon for Allen. I can’t believe people are nitpicking surrounding a raw qb with talent. This regime has been complete garbage at identifying receiver talent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) Again who do the bills have and who will they pay? What is a wr worth in the minds of this offensively challenged braintrust|? As said they never threw to him and when they did he caught the ball and produced. Not much you can do when not targeted, which was the problem with Buffalo and their 2014-2016 25 passes per game and their 200 yard average passing yards/game...... Buffalo football baby.... I gave many examples of those who are with the team that drafted them and were paid. What a novel idea to pay for your drafted stars. Edited November 8, 2018 by Billsfan1972 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeSomeProcess Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said: Again who do the bills have and who will they pay? What is a wr worth in the minds of this offensively challenged braintrust|? As said they never threw to him and when they did he caught the ball and produced. Not much you can do when not targeted, which was the problem with Buffalo and their 2014-2016 25 passes per game and their 200 yard average passing yards/game...... Buffalo football baby.... I gave many examples of those who are with the team that drafted them and were paid. What a novel idea to pay for your drafted stars. 16 million a year for a receiver who’s crack 1000k yards and never more than 9 tds who is always injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 I was always disappointed by his lack of explosiveness with the ball in his hands. He had a catch-and-run or two, but never really displayed the game-breaking RAC he showed in college. Conversely, his hands, route-running, and smoothness as a more traditional boundary WR were better-than-advertised. And he had a knack for those go routes, which was fun. Like Lee Evans, but with a more complete route tree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said: I was always disappointed by his lack of explosiveness with the ball in his hands. He had a catch-and-run or two, but never really displayed the game-breaking RAC he showed in college. Conversely, his hands, route-running, and smoothness as a more traditional boundary WR were better-than-advertised. And he had a knack for those go routes, which was fun. Like Lee Evans, but with a more complete route tree. Again I'll use 2015 Watkins best yuear to illustrate how underutilized he was. The Bills threw for 3600 yards that year or 225 a game. Watkins had had 60 catches in 96 targets in 13 games or 4.6 catches on 6.9 targets per game & 1047 yards. He was responsible for 29% of the passing yards for the team though missing 3 games. Same year. Hopkins 196 (12/gm) Targets 111 (6.9/gm) catches 1521 yards 4079 passing (from garbage QBs) or 37.2% of total.... OBJ 158 (10.58), 96 (6.4) 1450 of 4500 32.2% Brown 196 (12.25) 136 (8.5) 1834 of 4822 38.8% Very simply throw these players the ball and they catch it and produce. This year look at Thomas & Thielen as new examples....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 16 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: Why hasn't Julio, Antonio, Deandre, OBJ, Larry Fitz & other great receivers all bolted as soon as their contracts are up or 5th season? Because their teams value them (yes some arguing and in-fighting maybe), but all are thrown the ball and paid....... The stupidity of these arguments are ridiculous. because they're all better than sammy? 1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said: Again I'll use 2015 Watkins best yuear to illustrate how underutilized he was. The Bills threw for 3600 yards that year or 225 a game. Watkins had had 60 catches in 96 targets in 13 games or 4.6 catches on 6.9 targets per game & 1047 yards. He was responsible for 29% of the passing yards for the team though missing 3 games. Same year. Hopkins 196 (12/gm) Targets 111 (6.9/gm) catches 1521 yards 4079 passing (from garbage QBs) or 37.2% of total.... OBJ 158 (10.58), 96 (6.4) 1450 of 4500 32.2% Brown 196 (12.25) 136 (8.5) 1834 of 4822 38.8% Very simply throw these players the ball and they catch it and produce. This year look at Thomas & Thielen as new examples....... remember when you said sammy's lack of production was because the coach was telling his qb not to throw in his direction? i do. i do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 27 minutes ago, teef said: because they're all better than sammy? remember when you said sammy's lack of production was because the coach was telling his qb not to throw in his direction? i do. i do. Twist words..... I said he got no where near the same targets and the Bills QB's hardly threw and were 28th in passing in 2015, 30th in 2016, 31 in 2017 & currently last. Throw the ball to your best player (Watkins) and good things happen. Take a look at #1 receivers for every team and they usually will have 4 passes designed just to get him the ball (easy routes), a number of more complicated patterns (12-25 yards) downfield and then some deep routes they try. It is Football 101..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaMan79 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 If Sammy had/has an "ego" problem, the Bills as always had a talent evaluation and value problem. 16 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: Why hasn't Julio, Antonio, Deandre, OBJ, Larry Fitz & other great receivers all bolted as soon as their contracts are up or 5th season? Because their teams value them (yes some arguing and in-fighting maybe), but all are thrown the ball and paid....... The stupidity of these arguments are ridiculous. Sammy is none of those guys. 5+ years in the league, where coaches jobs are on the line week to week, if he was that good they'd find a way to get him to produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, YodaMan79 said: If Sammy had/has an "ego" problem, the Bills as always had a talent evaluation and value problem. Sammy is none of those guys. 5+ years in the league, where coaches jobs are on the line week to week, if he was that good they'd find a way to get him to produce. He is and was pursued and signed for $16,000,000. The Bills did not get him the ball enough and many teams thought enough to pay him that amount. Great players are paid and are highlighted in the offense. Decoy Sammy was not as a Bill and I understand the Ego problem. Answer me this. You are the #1 draft prospect at wr selected #4, have a good rookie season and in year 2 battle some injuries and are targeted half of what your peers are and still put up good #'s. A few setbacks in year 3 and less targets when healthy and often a decoy. You wouldn't be pissed? And this is exactly the Bills loser attitude about drafting skilled position players and then not wanting to pay them and thinking they can draft their heir. Let me guess your line of thinking...... "No receiver is worth $16,000,000 and there is not a single FA worth it". Me I'd rather have cheered the player the Bills drafted and developed for 10 years, then the FA signed. BTW Golden Tate is a FA. How much would you pay him and should the Bills sign him? Edited November 8, 2018 by Billsfan1972 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Twist words..... I said he got no where near the same targets and the Bills QB's hardly threw and were 28th in passing in 2015, 30th in 2016, 31 in 2017 & currently last. Throw the ball to your best player (Watkins) and good things happen. Take a look at #1 receivers for every team and they usually will have 4 passes designed just to get him the ball (easy routes), a number of more complicated patterns (12-25 yards) downfield and then some deep routes they try. It is Football 101..... i really wasn't trying to twist your words, but i don't think it's appropriate to include sammy in a conversation with those wrs in any circumstance. i know you were referring to targets, but those guys get the targets because they've proven to be productive and dependable. watkins hasn't shown to be that player yet. i like sammy as a wr, but i'm not going to repeatedly make excuses for him like you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: They are going to have to overpay for any receiver to come here.... and I hope they do. Fans here are too obsessed with the cap and I have no idea why. It's very difficult to get yourself into "cap hell" in today's NFL when you aren't paying a QB. Fans claim we were in that situation when McBeane took over, but it was never that bad. yes it was. i remember a post where thuman1 broke to down for you how bad it actually was, and you completely ignored it. you just claim it wasn't bad...how so? 17 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: He is and was pursued and signed for $16,000,000. The Bills did not get him the ball enough and many teams thought enough to pay him that amount. Great players are paid and are highlighted in the offense. Decoy Sammy was not as a Bill and I understand the Ego problem. Answer me this. You are the #1 draft prospect at wr selected #4, have a good rookie season and in year 2 battle some injuries and are targeted half of what your peers are and still put up good #'s. A few setbacks in year 3 and less targets when healthy and often a decoy. You wouldn't be pissed? And this is exactly the Bills loser attitude about drafting skilled position players and then not wanting to pay them and thinking they can draft their heir. Let me guess your line of thinking...... "No receiver is worth $16,000,000 and there is not a single FA worth it". Me I'd rather have cheered the player the Bills drafted and developed for 10 years, then the FA signed. BTW Golden Tate is a FA. How much would you pay him and should the Bills sign him? you keep mentioning the bills, but what about the rams. why would that team trade a second for him, only to let him go and use a first for another wr that they gave a similar salary too? they obviously didn't think enough of sammy either. why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, teef said: yes it was. i remember a post where thuman1 broke to down for you how bad it actually was, and you completely ignored it. you just claim it wasn't bad...how so? you keep mentioning the bills, but what about the rams. why would that team trade a second for him, only to let him go and use a first for another wr that they gave a similar salary too? they obviously didn't think enough of sammy either. why is that? Circular argument and a waste of time. I said if I was the GM, I would have extended him in year 4 (not traded him). I would have sat him down and commited to righting the wrongs of the previous coaches/gms and ensured we would get him the ball and see exactly what we have. If he prodiuced like OBJ (same draft class) then we have a comp and handle it like the Giants did. Instead the Bills got bubkus (an often injured DB who was not resigned and a second). In their quest for help they traded a third for Benjamin...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Circular argument and a waste of time. I said if I was the GM, I would have extended him in year 4 (not traded him). I would have sat him down and commited to righting the wrongs of the previous coaches/gms and ensured we would get him the ball and see exactly what we have. If he prodiuced like OBJ (same draft class) then we have a comp and handle it like the Giants did. Instead the Bills got bubkus (an often injured DB who was not resigned and a second). In their quest for help they traded a third for Benjamin...... that's not true. you completely blow off the second pick like it was nothing. the pick was the reason for the trade, not the player like you're making it out to be. the bills got a second and a player for a guy that would have walked for a high salary in FA. you and scott just keep saying sign him, like it's a lock. why wouldn't have sammy wanted to test fa? this team doesn't have an established qb, and i think we all know that another team was going to pay sammy a high salary alone based on potential. the rams traded for him and didn't want him, so kc is paying him. over paying him to be what...the third wr? again, i think sammy is a good wr. besides that, he's not great, and he's currently being over paid. i realize this team is going to have to over pay for some players. that's fine, but not for sammy. he just isn't worth it. all you've shown me is possibilities for sammy, no real results. 16 mill a year...3rd wr. it's sad. Edited November 8, 2018 by teef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfan1972 Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, teef said: that's not true. you completely blow off the second pick like it was nothing. the pick was the reason for the trade, not the player like you're making it out to be. the bills got a second and a player for a guy that would have walked for a high salary in FA. you and scott just keep saying sign him, like it's a lock. why wouldn't have sammy wanted to test fa? this team doesn't have an established qb, and i think we all know that another team was going to pay sammy a high salary alone based on potential. the rams traded for him and didn't want him, so kc is paying him. over paying him to be what...the third wr? again, i think sammy is a good wr. besides that, he's not great, and he's currently being over paid. i realize this team is going to have to over pay for some players. that's fine, but not for sammy. he just isn't worth it. all you've shown me is possibilities for sammy, no real results. 16 mill a year...3rd wr. it's sad. Yep poor KC..... God it must be terrible being a Chiefs' fan. I laid out 2017 as I would have handled Sammy and you keep ignoring that..... Obviously not the process that involved tearing the O down under McD & hiring terrible offensive coordinators....... But one I would have eschewed. Explain too how different that would be from Evans or OBJ from the same draft class and with the teams that drafted them and who they throw to? Why are they still on the same teams? They are "me too" guys and the Bills would have traded them too in 2017. Edited November 8, 2018 by Billsfan1972 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfod Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said: Yep poor KC..... God it must be terrible being a Chiefs' fan. I laid out 2017 as I would have handled Sammy and you keep ignoring that..... Obviously not the process that involved tearing the O under McD...... But one I would have eschewed. Explain too how different that would be from Evans or OBJ from the same draft class and with the same teams. Why are they still on the same teams? They are me too guys and the Bills would have traded them too in 2017. i don't know what being a chiefs fan has to do with anything. after the end of this year, i'm willing to bet that most fans will wonder why he's earning what he's earning. he isn't the reason for their success...at all. i know you laid you what you would have done, and i get it, but i think people are kidding themselves if they don't think sammy wanted to test fa at that point in his career. signing him isn't the slam dunk people are making it out to be. it's a possibility for sure, but i think unlikely. besides...if sammy was making a huge salary form the bills, and producing like he is now, can you imagine the fan outrage. the same posters criticizing the bills for not paying watkins would be the ones screaming from the mountain tops about how the bills are overspending on the wrong players. his salary doesn't match is production. i have no idea why you keep bringing up wrs that are far better than sammy. you know why guys like obj are still on their teams at large paydays? they're productive and worth it. sammy hasn't shown to be. sammy wasn't let go because of his attitude. if he showed that he was really a top wr, that doesn't matter. sammy isn't productive enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jpsredemption Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Quit worrying about Sammy. He's a good receiver on a good team. We are a trash team with no WRs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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