The True reason to fire McDermott

[Big Gun]

52 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

If that is your philosophy so be it. Coaches in this league, imo, cant be succesful until you have a franchise QB and a complement of players to go with. Right now, he has neither yet. We can agree to disagree- and disclaimer, im not sold on McD but im willing to give it a little more time.

I'll give you the QB part but there was talent here, McBeane was the one who decided to make this a talentless team.

[C.Biscuit97]

Relax everyone.  Dick McDermott is doing a great job.  

[Lurker]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:52 PM, cgg716 said:

 normally

 

Sober up, bud.   Don't end up like Chad Kelly...

[Bing Bong]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The difference being that McVay is reloading, not rebuilding. He joined a team with a GM who's been in place, building a solid roster for years and picking the #1 overall QB the year before he got there.

 

The Bills did not have a roster that would have made a reload tenable. They weren't good. The Rams had build a strong defense that was very young, and had brought in Gurley and Goff before McVay arrived, and they were in good shape with the salary cap.

 

But yeah, you make a good point, McVay was a lot better than Fisher. And you're certainly right that you don't always have to start over. Do you really think the 2015 Bills had enough talent to reload around? I don't, especially when Whaley had built a very mediocre squad while treating his salary cap situation like a sailor in port treats his pocket money.

 

If you do think we could have reloaded, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

All true. I suppose I'll counter that it's not black and white and there's you can better your football team by reloading and/or rebuilding. My end point ultimately is I don't like new GM/coaching regimes to have too much hubris that they insist on a rebuild with "their guys" because it's their way or the highway ie Jon Gruden.

 

I"ll put on my uninformed football czar cap and tell what I've agreed and disagreed with so far.

 

2014 Bills squad: i'd have retained Swatkins, dumped Tyrod (when they did agree with that move) played a cheap game manager quarterback this year such as say.. Glennon, KAEP?! (national media is roasting us and Jags for not getting better), Bridgewater, Matt Moore, Chase Daniel etc... idk I think a lot of backups had more experience game managing than McCarron for a similar price. And banked on ANY coach that could have motivated Dareus because that's the coach the roster needed.. if such a man exists. Point is McVay seems to get his roster of slackers to perform. Obvs in hindsight we could have gotten a good QB in 2017 draft but that's another question.. that's a good roster with some but not much cap relief (I think).. I'd dump Clay if we needed to.. he was clearly brought in for Roman/Taylor power run offense.

 

Say no coach on the planet can give us 2014 Dareus, say we're starting last off-season.. playoff team: make it better! Defensive unit was clearly good enough, spend some draft and FA capital on offense, maybe keep Tyrod who at least can get a W or 2 when the rest of the offense is ****in the bed. Draft O Line, WR, and keep up the fantastic garbage diving for secondary. I don't know if we have the draft capital to get Edmunds or Allen.. but if we love Allen we go Allen and keep Tyrod around year to year. Otherwise Tyrod and Edmunds.. point is I think THIS off-season was a junction where we failed to reload.. we had little cap but it was a rebuild simply by not giving a **** about the offense. Call it a hybrid at that juncture and friggin go offense, reload after a simultaneous rebuild that gave us a playoff team..

 

And maybe I'm crazy but I think the offensive linemen that retired, Cogs and Woods we're not ready to restart and were out simply because we dumped Tyrod. The vets are likely to go when they no longer recognize the offense they had so much success with pound and ground those 2 years. A hybrid rebuild is our intact 2015 offense with our great defensive coaching and secondary from 2017 along with draft capital aimed at WR and ANY FA capital at WR (although the wr class was weak)..

 

Any of that seem feasible to you? Just felt like we could have simply improved the offense, kept some vets along with the secondary core intact instead of following the master plan of building a Lego peice team by putting Legos on a defense unchanged that basically carried us to the playoffs and while tossing away Legos on the other offensive half.. we could have beefed up with Edmunds type and/or Allen type in 2 years rather than having a raw QB on a **** offense and a great rookie MLB in a unit that is already a strength at the same time.

 

and for the record I find the statement that the Rams were in a prime position regardless of what happened when Fisher left is dismissing just how good McVay was. AT THE TIME: Goff was a bust, Gurley had a bad year, the offense looked bad. They had one lynchpin in Aaron Donald and questionable pieces. They we're likely similar to us.. they went what.. like 4-12 under Fisher? I don't think people were saying they were a coaching staff away from reloading. It's apparent now they were, and that's sort of my theory on what I want new regimes to fully understand when they take over a team. DON'T BE A GRUDEN lol

Edited October 23, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[billsfan_34]

29 minutes ago, pop gun said:

I'll give you the QB part but there was talent here, McBeane was the one who decided to make this a talentless team.

I think they were trying to rip the band aid off and build it their way. I would of definitely tried to retain Woods- always thought he was a true football player. Watkins I get in a way- always hurt and not living up to his first round expectation- but then again tough to evaluate without a franchise QB right? I dont think anyone saw the Woods/Incognito thing coming- we lost 2/3 of our interior line.

 

I am not making excuses- like I said im not sold yet. Im just looking at this as the glass is half full right now. This is certainly a fun conversation my friend and I value your point of view and dont think your wrong, just think we need a little more time.

[twoandfourteen]

6 hours ago, Maybe Someday said:

 

These are both great ideas in theory and I've seen the same basic concept posted again and again but you've got to have the players in order to make these work.  How innovative of an offense can you really run when you have a QB with the skillset of Tyrod Taylor or a raw rookie like Josh Allen?  Neither of which has shown the ability to consistently make quick reads and get the ball out.  Do you really want either of them throwing the ball 30+ times a game?  Do you believe that Daboll has the offense fully installed at this point and would be doing everything exactly the same way if we had a veteran QB?  Daboll has to restrict the offense to what Allen and now Anderson can handle.  I fully expect that as Allen improves and we add some players around him, the things we try to do on offense will expand as well.  Will Allen ever be good enough to fully run one of these innovative, modern offenses with all the checks and reads, I don't know but I do know that he is not able to mentally handle it right now.  Asking him to do so would probably be even more disastrous than what we've already seen. 

 

Also, the modern NFL is not only passing the ball despite what many seem to think, the best offenses in the league can also run the ball really well.  Over the coarse of history, that has usually been the case.  

 

Maybe hire a coach & GM that will actually go out and make obtaining these players the top priority, instead of wasting time drafting DBs. 

 

I agree with all of the Allen points, however... maybe time, draft capital, and cap resources should have mostly been poured into the offense, so that the very-limited rookie QB that is literally going to make or break this franchise has a solid group to work with from day 1. 

 

Between the situation they dropped their most important asset into & the bizarre devotion to Peterman, I think very serious discussions concerning McD & B's future with the team are absolutely warranted. If I'm the owner -- It's game over for McD & B unless there are several legitimate signs of improvement between now and January.

[twoandfourteen]

6 hours ago, Maybe Someday said:

 

These are both great ideas in theory and I've seen the same basic concept posted again and again but you've got to have the players in order to make these work.  How innovative of an offense can you really run when you have a QB with the skillset of Tyrod Taylor or a raw rookie like Josh Allen?  Neither of which has shown the ability to consistently make quick reads and get the ball out.  Do you really want either of them throwing the ball 30+ times a game?  Do you believe that Daboll has the offense fully installed at this point and would be doing everything exactly the same way if we had a veteran QB?  Daboll has to restrict the offense to what Allen and now Anderson can handle.  I fully expect that as Allen improves and we add some players around him, the things we try to do on offense will expand as well.  Will Allen ever be good enough to fully run one of these innovative, modern offenses with all the checks and reads, I don't know but I do know that he is not able to mentally handle it right now.  Asking him to do so would probably be even more disastrous than what we've already seen. 

 

Also, the modern NFL is not only passing the ball despite what many seem to think, the best offenses in the league can also run the ball really well.  Over the coarse of history, that has usually been the case.  

 

I wonder if those numbers have anything to do with the defense being more concerned with trying to prevent 350 yards passing & 4 TDs, plus the fact that the best offenses are more likely to be running out the clock at the end of games. 

 

Everything revolves around the passing game now. 

 

Those quick hitters for 5-7 yds are the new "running game". Guys like Edelman & Thielen have replaced the workhorse RB. Snap, take a step, throw. 

 

Stupid teams smash the ball right into the middle of the line for a yard or two half the game. Smart teams get the ball downfield.

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, pop gun said:

I'll give you the QB part but there was talent here, McBeane was the one who decided to make this a talentless team.

 

AND McDermott helped. He pretty much ran the first draft and passed on 2 QBs that are  better, not to mention at least one we traded.  Beane was busy drafting McCaffrey.

 

McDermott is far from blameless when it comes to the (lack of) talent level on this team IMHO.

3 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

2014 Bills squad: i'd have retained Swatkins, dumped Tyrod (when they did agree with that move) played a cheap game manager quarterback this year such as say.. Glennon, KAEP?

 

Hotrod wasn't even on the team in 2014.  But yeah, sign Kaepernick.  Start him vs da Bears.

Edited October 23, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

Hotrod wasn't even on the team in 2014.  But yeah, sign Kaepernick.  Start him vs da Bears.

Just speculating on what could have happened. I don't think an extreme Jon Gruden type rebuild is necessary for any team. It comes across as a cop out for regimes that are unwilling to compromise a long-term vision of Their Own with the long-term ramifications of the pieces they are given. 

 

Last year we could have invested much more in the offense and been competitive. How does a hamper you when you rebuild filling in your weaknesses year-to-year? The ultimate goal is to be competitive on both sides of the ball. why not Leverage our defense strength to invest in offense. If the plan is to go all out on offense with all this cap I'm hearing about as well as draft capital why couldn't we have built up both sides in the course of 2 years rather than beefing up a defense that already proved they could carry a crap offense to the playoffs.

[RosenNOTchosen1]

Here are my reasons to fire McBeane.

 

1) Complete mismanagement of the quarterback position.

First we had the chance to draft Pat Mahomes who is arguably the most dynamic quarterback in the league. I know Whaley was technically the GM in charge at time, but let's be honest we all know McDermott was calling the shots. You mean to tell me he's that bad at evaluating QB's that he didn't want to draft Mahomes? Didn't he watch film on the college quarterbacks or what? Then we have the whole mess of a situation with Peterman. I don't even know why he's still on the roster. Yeah let's not even get into that. UGH.

 

2) Number of blowout losses.

McDermott has only coach 24 games thus far and 8 of them have been blowout losses. 1/3 of the games is an astounding numbers of games to be blown out in. Very alarming statistic.

 

3) Dubious draft picks, trades, free agent signings

-Giving up a 3rd round pick for Benjamin. I'd grade that trade an F.

-Paying Star Lotueleli 50 million just to take on double teams? Really you gotta pay a guy 50 million to take up double teams. 

-Trading up in the draft for Zay Jones. Not only is he not a good receiver but we actually traded up to get him. SMH.

 

4) Historically bad offense.

This may be the biggest reason to fire McDermott. This regime seems to be completely clueless on the offensive side of the ball. We're ranked dead last in offense and this has to be the worst offense in the NFL in years. I'm not sure if it's just brining in inept coordinator's or lack of talent but either way the results speak for themselves. We have 3 touchdown passes this season. Are you kidding me!? Say that out loud. 3 touchdown passes in the entire damn season. SMH. What makes anyone think the offense is gonna improve in year 3 with this regime? 

[Buffalo03]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:11 PM, clayboy54 said:

One thing I don't understand...

 

How is it that the past Bills organization under Ralph Wilson is constantly assumed to be the same organization under the Pegulas? Saying that the Bills organization has been bad for 50 years makes no sense when today's Bills are a new organization, except for Jim Overdorf.

 

Someone explain this to me, please.

Because the team has existed for 58 years and has been just as bad as it is now and sometimes worse under Ralph. By saying that the team is not the same team under Pegula is like saying that this team didn't exist for the first 54 years and we were an expansion team in 2014 which makes no sense. New ownership doesn't mean new team it's still the "Buffalo Bills". 

 

If Robert Kraft sold the Patriots and the new owner came in and got rid of Belichick, all of his coaches and the whole front office and started over with someone else but they still continue to dominate the league and win multiple Super Bowls over the next 10 years, would you say "The Patriots have only been good for 10 years"? You shouldn't because it makes no sense. They would be dominating for 30 years at that point. It's still the "New England Patriots". 

 

Another way to look at it is for 17 years we waited for the Bills to make the playoffs but we had like 7 different regimes and were constantly told to have patience under each regime because the current regime is not the last one ehich is true but it doesn't mean that all those other years they didn't make the playoffs didn't count. The "team" didn't make the playoffs for 17 years. Under your logic you would be saying every time we got a new regime "we haven't made the playoffs in 3 years" which is incorrect

Edited October 23, 2018 by Buffalo03

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Buffalo03 said:

 Another way to look at it is for 17 years we waited for the Bills to make the playoffs but we had like 7 different regimes and were constantly told to have patience under each regime because the current regime is not the last one ehich is true but it doesn't mean that all those other years they didn't make the playoffs didn't count. The "team" didn't make the playoffs for 17 years.

 

A -Freakin '-Men

 

 Bills fans are the most long suffering AND patient fans.

 

we made the playoffs last year and this year we 're the worst team in the league but it's cool. Be patient. Trust the process. We're gonna rock in 2020.  I hope I'm still alive.

[Bing Bong]

26 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

A -Freakin '-Men

 

 Bills fans are the most long suffering AND patient fans.

 

we made the playoffs last year and this year we 're the worst team in the league but it's cool. Be patient. Trust the process. We're gonna rock in 2020.  I hope I'm still alive.

You get a taste of the playoffs and all the sudden you never want to miss it again.. maybe that's why TBD is going nuts.

[iinii]

On 10/22/2018 at 11:59 AM, Wayne Arnold said:

LMAO at the posters who think this is exactly what McDermott wants.

 

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

It is what he has engineered 

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, Avisan said:

Yeah no

 

Our WRs were fine and vastly more talented than what is currently on our roster ...

 

Yeah, no, indeed. Our WRs were even worse than this year. Zay Jones and Benjamin have both started to look pretty decent the last two to three games.

 

Brandon Tate, Deonte Thompson, Jordan Matthews and the rookie Zay (plus Kaelin Clay and Taiwan Jones) weren't as good. They just weren't. They did have a slightly better QB throwing to them, but that didn't make them better, just in a slightly better situation.

 

 

15 hours ago, Avisan said:

... our LBers were similarly solid ...

 

 

Bwah ha ha ha ha. Oh, that's precious, Avisan, really. It's clear you didn't mean it to be, but that's hilarious. Yeah, Humber, Preston Brown and Alexander, the early starters last year, were better than Tremaine Edmunds, the second-year Matt Milano, and Alexander. Right, gotcha.

 

 

15 hours ago, Avisan said:

... and our D-line was expected to continue to be good.  Average defense at worst.

 

On offense our WRs were fine, as mentioned, our RB stable looked great, TE was looking pretty good... what we were missing and have been missing is a productive, efficient passer and good overall coaching decisions, the Bills' not being considered as annual contenders is specifically because we've been missing those elements

 

I really don't feel like doing the Thurman-thinks-he's-smarter-than-everyone-even-though-he's-of-pretty-standard-intelligence dance with you because it's exhausting and completely pointless but in a nutshell we underperformed relative to previous years on both sides of the ball last year but the way things shook out we made the playoffs anyway, and now the complete gutting of the roster is kicking in, yielding the atrocity we now see on the field

 

Right, average defense at worst. Great, go find all the preseason forecasts that predicted that, especially the "at worst" part. Some thought we'd be average but I'd love to see all of your links to the articles predicting we'd be average at worst on defense. In the real world, the D-line looked OK but nobody expected Tre to be as good as he was so early.

 

The D looked like it might possibly be decent but equally might be pretty bad, and the O looked like it would be sub-mediocre.

 

Not going to bother going point by point through your nonsense, but last post you amazingly said this:

 

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:21 AM, Avisan said:

 

Buffalo consensus and national musings were that we were good coaching and competent QB play away from being annual contenders for the playoffs, 

 

... and I challenged you to produce a few of those articles that mentioned "being annual contenders for the playoffs." Surprisingly, you didn't link to any of them in this post ....

 

Still waiting ...

 

 

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, iinii said:

It is what he has engineered 

 

 

Yup. He engineered a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like this early.

 

It is painful, but that's the way these things go. We'll see over the next few years how good a job they've done.

 

 

9 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Because the team has existed for 58 years and has been just as bad as it is now and sometimes worse under Ralph. By saying that the team is not the same team under Pegula is like saying that this team didn't exist for the first 54 years and we were an expansion team in 2014 which makes no sense. New ownership doesn't mean new team it's still the "Buffalo Bills". 

 

If Robert Kraft sold the Patriots and the new owner came in and got rid of Belichick, all of his coaches and the whole front office and started over with someone else but they still continue to dominate the league and win multiple Super Bowls over the next 10 years, would you say "The Patriots have only been good for 10 years"? You shouldn't because it makes no sense. They would be dominating for 30 years at that point. It's still the "New England Patriots". 

 

Another way to look at it is for 17 years we waited for the Bills to make the playoffs but we had like 7 different regimes and were constantly told to have patience under each regime because the current regime is not the last one ehich is true but it doesn't mean that all those other years they didn't make the playoffs didn't count. The "team" didn't make the playoffs for 17 years. Under your logic you would be saying every time we got a new regime "we haven't made the playoffs in 3 years" which is incorrect

 

 

Yeah, we've been really bad for a long time.

 

No, the vast majority of that isn't the new regime's fault. 

 

Yes, some fans have been very patient. Of course, some have screamed, moaned and whined for the whole 18 years, but let's look past that.

 

But no, the fact that we've been patient for a long time doesn't mean more patience isn't needed. 

 

"No matter how great the talent or efforts, some things just take time. You can't produce a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant."   - Warren Buffett

 

Rebuilds are one of those things that just take time.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Chandler#81]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:55 PM, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Gailey's offense was lightyears better  than this team in every position besides running back. I don't think he's trying to build a defense first team, so much as he inherited a team that already had most of the defensive pieces in place, and doesn't really need to be rebuilt like the offense does. 

 

? Star, Harry & Jordan Phillips, Murphy, Edmunds, Milano, T.White, Hyde, Poyer, Eddy Y, Taron Johnson & Phillip Gaines say ‘Hi!’

 

Only Lawson, LoAl, Hughes & Kyle were inherited.

 

To the OPs point, if this much talent can be amassed in a year & a half, in addition to Allen, Dawkins & Zey, would the team be more balanced talent-wise if these acquisitions were split like 8-7 instead of 12-3? Dead Cap burden notwithstanding, there was ample time to find replacements for the unexpected losses of Wood & Ritchie. McDermott’s archaic PROCESS the thread alludes to is a stark and valid observation. The reason we’re witnessing alarming blowout losses is we don’t have the horses to compete in high scoring affairs taking place everywhere in the League. 17, 20 & 24 point leads are overcome virtually every week now, by teams with “Great Defense”. Does anybody here think the Bills could overcome a 10 point deficit this year?

 

[oldmanfan]

He is not getting fired.  Rant all you want if it makes you feel better

[JerseyBills]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:55 PM, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

Gailey's offense was lightyears better  than this team in every position besides running back. I don't think he's trying to build a defense first team, so much as he inherited a team that already had most of the defensive pieces in place, and doesn't really need to be rebuilt like the offense does. 

That would make sense and all , except the defense he inherited 1.5 years ago only has 3 of the same starters, Kyle, Jerry and Lorax. We already rebuilt the defense

[The Process]

Is it a possibility that it was the plan to stack the defense this year rather than sprinkle in guys on both sides of the ball? A plan to just get by on offense and address it next draft and FA cycle. I mean ...you'd never admit that just like never admit you are tanking. Maybe it's all in the plan. I hope it's the plan....It better FREAKIN BE THE PLAN!!!!