Why do new coaches overhaul rosters?

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

3 hours ago, major said:

Heard today that Jon Gruden has a two year plan to completely overhaul the raiders roster to bring in his own players. Why do coaches do this (our own included)? I’ve seen this done in my profession as well and it rarely works. I know some answers will revolve around new schemes and new players. But it seems to be more of an ego trip, in my opinion. So why do you think they do this? 

 

Scheme fit, some players can play in every system but most are scheme fit. Gruden on the other hand just may be out of his mind.

[Roundybout]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

Sure but if some Miracle play ends the drought like McD he would have right?

 

Well, no, but it would have helped for sure. Im not saying extend McD, but let him stay for his contract, or 3 years at minimum. 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Well, no, but it would have helped for sure. Im not saying extend McD, but let him stay for his contract, or 3 years at minimum. 

 

So lets say without the Miracle you would be defending a coach that ends this season with

4-12 season with a Historically disgusting offense with over 10 blowout losses on a coaches resume. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 hours ago, major said:

Heard today that Jon Gruden has a two year plan to completely overhaul the raiders roster to bring in his own players. Why do coaches do this (our own included)? I’ve seen this done in my profession as well and it rarely works. I know some answers will revolve around new schemes and new players. But it seems to be more of an ego trip, in my opinion. So why do you think they do this? 

 

because if the old players don't buy in they have to be shipped out. We still have Kyle and Shady and others but those who didn't are gone. Also guys who didn't fit would need to go too, this is painful but if we hang in there McDermott will turn this around.

 

 

[Roundybout]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So lets say without the Miracle you would be defending a coach that ends this season with

4-12 season with a Historically disgusting offense with over 10 blowout losses on a coaches resume. 

 

Not as much as I am now but I would still give him a 3rd year at least. 

[BullBuchanan]

people give coaches in all athletics way too much credit. They think that because there's 1 of 32 in the NFL that they must be at minimum smart and understand the game. In reality coaching is so hard to get into because it's a good ol' boys network that demands 24 hours a day with an unlivable wage at the beginning. In order to get into high school or college ball you have to be available at 5am and 3pm even just to be an assistant. That means that you really need to be independently wealthy, a teacher, or have some other job with super flexible hours to try to break into coaching while feeding yourself. The result is an extremely small talent pool where mostly average coaches compete against each other.

 

Most of the coaches I see in pro sports run one scheme, their scheme. They've been successful because it has yet to be exploited and maybe they achieved something that impresses hiring managers. There is a small, elite group of coaches in the history of the profession that are able to completely throw out the playbook and write new ones to match the talent they have. For the rest, they get called when the existing talent matches their scheme, or when a coach thinks they can force it.

The coaches we have on our team fall into the "my way or the highway" standard fare coaches. They'll need to get lucky to win.

Edited October 22, 2018 by BullBuchanan

[eanyills]

1 hour ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

McVay didn't have to, that team was loaded. From years of high draft picks. 

 

 

But that’s not the entire story. Tons of coaches, especially the old guard of coaches, want “their guys.” When Aaron Donald and the Rams were having contract quarrels, McVay could have pulled a Gruden and had Donald dealt like the Raiders did Mack.

 

Goff looked like an unmitigated tire fire. It would have been easy for any new coach with leverage to say they wanted to move on from what looked like a sure bust in the making.

 

The Rams had a ton of talent but they’ve also had a bit of turnover in McVay’s tenure so far, especially on the defensive side.

 

The place they’ve really succeeded I think is in offensive player identification and planning. McVay clearly knows what he wants to do and what kind of players he needs to do it. Replace Kenny Britt with Robert Woods. Immediately get rid of Tavon Austin, get Cooper Kupp. Try Sammy, it doesn’t work, try Brandin Cooks.

 

So many coaches seem to haphazardly approach building their roster. McVay seems like he knows exactly what he wants and needs on the offensive side.

Edited October 22, 2018 by eanyills

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Maybe if Rex hadn’t screwed the team over.  .......

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, eanyills said:

But that’s not the entire story. Tons of coaches, especially the old guard of coaches, want “their guys.” When Aaron Donald and the Rams were having contract quarrels, McVay could have pulled a Gruden and had Donald dealt like the Raiders did Mack.

 

Goff looked like an unmitigated tire fire. It would have been easy for any new coach with leverage to say they wanted to move on from what looked like a sure bust in the making.

 

The Rams had a ton of talent but they’ve also had a bit of turnover in McVay’s tenure so far, especially on the defensive side.

 

The place they’ve really succeeded I think is in offensive player identification and planning. McVay clearly knows what he wants to do and what kind of players he needs to do it. Replace Kenny Britt with Robert Woods. Immediately get rid of Tavon Austin, get Cooper Kupp. Try Sammy, it doesn’t work, try Brandin Cooks.

 

So many coaches seem to haphazardly approach building their roster. McVay seems like he knows exactly what he wants and needs on the offensive side.

 

The Rams could retain Donald because Goff is still on his rookie contract, so the Raiders comparison is not appropriate.  Carr has signed his big 2nd contract which impacted negotiations with Mack.  

[apuszczalowski]

Because either their egos are so big that they have to win things their way (Rex)

 

Or because they are only good at one certain thing (certain scheme, type of offence/defence, etc) and feel that the only way they can win is to run what they know best. They cant make what they are given work, they need certain type of players to run a specific offence/defence tat they are used to

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Football coaches are some of the most stubborn people 

That's why they get fired constantly.  Their way or the highway.  Too lazy to adapt their offense/defense to the skillset of their current players. There is no process.  Just stubborn egotistical coaches who know more than anyone in the room. McProcess has no clue what to do offensively. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by LABILLBACKER

[Bangarang]

Chiefs go 2-14, hire Reid and immediately win 11 games.

 

Rams win 4 games, hire McVay and immediately win 11 games.

 

Eagles win 7 games, hire Pederson and win the SB in his 2nd year.

 

 

Every regime we hire, fans think it takes 4 or 5 years to build a team. It doesn’t. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Bangarang

[eanyills]

11 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

The Rams could retain Donald because Goff is still on his rookie contract, so the Raiders comparison is not appropriate.  Carr has signed his big 2nd contract which impacted negotiations with Mack.  

It’s absolutely applicable. The Rams franchise tagged Donald repeatedly because they couldn’t fit him into the salary structure of the team. Tavon Austin and Trumaine Johnson were making 30mil combined at the time. Next year, they’re going to have to make  serious room for the new contracts (see ya Suh, Joyner, etc.) That’s life in the modern NFL. It’s why the Raiders are rumored to be moving on from Cooper and potentially Carr.

 

Mack wasn’t a Gruden guy otherwise they would have kept him. Money is never an issue in the NFL. It’s whether a guy fits into the coaches vision for the team and obviously Mack didn’t.

Edited October 22, 2018 by eanyills

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

because if the old players don't buy in they have to be shipped out. We still have Kyle and Shady and others but those who didn't are gone. Also guys who didn't fit would need to go too, this is painful but if we hang in there McDermott will turn this around.

 

 

How do you know this? What have they showed so far to show any sign that this would or even could be true?

The team keeps getting worse, nothing is getting better, they have very little high end talent and a rookie QB that has not shown he can be a franchise guy.

They haven't shown they can evaluate and obtain good offensive talent. They only thing they have shown is that they can dump talent and collect Draft picks and dead cap

2 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Chiefs go 2-14, hire Reid and immediately win 11 games.

 

Rams win 4 games, hire McVay and immediately win 11 games.

 

Eagles win 7 games, hire Pederson and win the SB in his 2nd year.

 

 

Every regime we hire, fans think it takes 4 or 5 years to build a team. It doesn’t. 

Because fans always want to blow things up and start over, they also expect that by doing it, they will get a SB contender for decades.

They believe that its only worth it if your gonna be the Pats and be the elite for 20 years

[Victory Formation]

If McDermott does get fired 1 1/2 years from now I'd let Leslie Frazier and the defensive staff stay on board. Same playbook for the players, no player turnover and players keep their coaches. See if we can have some stability in the coaching ranks for a change. Thing is McDermott did build a good defense, McDermott's problem is he can't build a good offense or STs, his defense is fine though.

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Did a sell off occur in Rams, Chi? Philly? Colts? 

 

New adaptive coaches can perform with what is on the roster 

 

Did with the Colts a bit... since Ballard was hired as GM they have cleared out some pieces. 

[longtimebillsfan]

10 hours ago, major said:

Heard today that Jon Gruden has a two year plan to completely overhaul the raiders roster to bring in his own players. Why do coaches do this (our own included)? I’ve seen this done in my profession as well and it rarely works. I know some answers will revolve around new schemes and new players. But it seems to be more of an ego trip, in my opinion. So why do you think they do this? 

I have often wondered the same thing.   Successful coaches design a scheme to utilize the talents of the players on the roster.   Coaches like Rex dismantle a successful team and bring g in inferior talent just because they fit the scheme they want to run.   I how McDermott is not the latter.

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, major said:

Heard today that Jon Gruden has a two year plan to completely overhaul the raiders roster to bring in his own players. Why do coaches do this (our own included)? I’ve seen this done in my profession as well and it rarely works. I know some answers will revolve around new schemes and new players. But it seems to be more of an ego trip, in my opinion. So why do you think they do this? 

 

 

I suppose there are plenty of cases where ego has an effect. I doubt it's the majority, though. I think it's mostly, as you say, new schemes. And the other usual suspects,  things like lack of a QB and a consequent need to accumulate trade capital, the time that a rebuild takes and how the team's cap situation fits those time constraints.

 

Football teams have to deal with things that other businesses don't ... salary caps, the extreme speed with which players age compared to how it happens in most industries, the commonplace nature of injuries and the consequent need for depth ...

[Alaska Darin]

9 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Common denominator:  having a QB makes them look a whole lot more like geniuses...

Goff was considered a total bust before McVay.  Belichick went 11-5 with Matt Cassel.

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Chiefs go 2-14, hire Reid and immediately win 11 games.

 

Rams win 4 games, hire McVay and immediately win 11 games.

 

Eagles win 7 games, hire Pederson and win the SB in his 2nd year.

 

 

Every regime we hire, fans think it takes 4 or 5 years to build a team. It doesn’t. 

 

 

 

 

The Ram and Eagles were not rebuilds. They were reloads. Snead's been the GM in L.A. since 2012, building pretty consistently. Both teams brought in brand new franchise QBs before these miraculous "immediate ... turnarounds." Both had GMs who'd been in place. GMs don't generally get the chance to rebuild their own squads, not unless they've won a Super Bowl or two anyway. A rebuild says the team isn't good enough and won't be. A GM saying that about his own roster is grading his own performance poorly.

 

Those teams had been building for quite a while. Poor arguments that it doesn't take 4 or 5 years to build a team.

 

Our roster was simply poorer and we got a new personnel team in and they decided to rebuild. That's very different from teams that have been building for ages and continue along their path and hit a tipping point.

 

As for the Chiefs didn't they nearly replace everyone very very quickly? And their turnaround was all Reid? Didn't have anything to do with replacing Matt Cassel with Alex Smith? Or with Crennel pretty much losing the locker room? I actually do think that Reid is one of the very very few coaches who actually do make a major difference. But Reid changed a lot of personnel, particularly on the offense.

 

I'm looking at the offensive starters between the Crennel meltdown in 2012 and Reid's rosters and there was major turnover beyond dumping Cassel for a very capable veteran QB in Alex Smith.