Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I'm not sure some of these guys really do anything well. I'll give an example. It was clear from a couple years back that several of the OLmen were decent in straight-up power blocking schemes. Not top notch, but capable. So at the start of the year, Daboll (or Castillo, but signed off by Daboll) had them doing lots of pin-pull stuff with multiple guys pulling, alternating with lots of cut blocking. It was a dismal fail, and on the occasions when they did employ more straightforward stuff (duo-type stuff with no lead blocker) it was notably more successful. Daboll would try 3 run plays resulting in -1 or -3 yards with DL/LB hurdling failed cut blocks or Ducasse tripping over Groy, then say "whups, we can't run" and put it all on Allen's arm. It took until Tenn. for Daboll to get the memo and scheme up some stuff that our OL could do - and when he did, lo and behold, we were able to get 3-5 yd chunks with some very nice play design. I haven't looked in as much detail, but it wouldn't surprise me if there would be similar examples in the pass game. Don't have Benjamin going deep, for example. He's gonna be covered like a blanket and Allen's gonna throw it away to a chorus of "look he's inaccurate on deep throws!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianthomas Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Buddy Hix said: "It wasn't until Charlie Weis joined those same Patriots decades later that the modern iteration of the system came to be. Instead of using a simplified passing system to minimize the duties of the QB, Weis used it to massively enhance the multiple options and possibilities within a given play." You neglected to include the following sentence: This was the Lego of offensive systems. Its inherent simplicity could be exploited to build any machine imaginable. For sure Charlie Weiss built upon the system & added his own wrinkles & formations that he felt were good. I'd think any OC should/would do this. No OC just takes a vanilla system & copies it, they form it into something that they believe will work. We can debate whether Daboll has been making the wrong play calls or throwing too much on Allen too soon. But on a straight concept basis, the EP system has less terminology for players to learn & a less complicated playbook vs other systems. Of course i'm no expert, just going off of everything ive researched into it & heard from other sources. And it makes sense. In our situation i believe our issues stem more from a lack of talent in key positions such as our oline & wr group. Not to mention a QB who came from the Mountain West in college which was one giant leap to the NFL. This team wasnt really ready for Allen to be starting this year. And #2 Allen needed tons of work, from his footwork & mechanics to reading the defense both presnap & post snap. With so many big issues where any of one them could bring an offense trouble, the system itself i feel is not the problem. There has been countless analysis done on Allen so far, and you can see receivers wide open all over the field. The downfield scheme has provided ample opportunities in the passing game. We just havent been executing on those chances. To me thats less on the system & more on Allen & his supporting cast. Edited October 16, 2018 by brianthomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Most of it. Like 90% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLess Price Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 5 hours ago, SaratogaMike said: When your offensive line stinks, screen passes and quick hitters need to be the staple of your offense. I don't see much of that. This. We have 2 good backs and a star in mccoy. Y are we not running an offense similar to Rothlisburgers rookie year? Your asking a rookie who historically had a hard time reading the defense and beating the blitz with his arm in college, to read complex nfl defenses and hit down the field throws. Tallrod isnt that good yet. Let the running game be the focus with some gadget plays to mccloud foster with zay jones clay and benjamin on 3rd down plays. Jallen has shown its too much too soon for him. So take the pressure off his shoulders and call soke easy reads for him before u ruin him, hes already running from ghost pressure 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: Are we still in the Blame everybody BUT McDermott phase? I think we're in the "who should we blame in addition to McDermott"? phase. But that could just be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 According to Hughes, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Daboll isn’t blameless in this scenario but his hands are tied more than any coach that I can remember. They handed him an expired can of spam, brussell sprouts, a match and asked him to go win a James Beard award. While others may make a better spam and sprouts dinner it’s still going to suck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris66 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 9 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: This He was going to be the patriots next OC when McDaniels was supposed to go to the colts. He certainly didn't suck when he was with Alabama and the Patriots. But somehow he is an idiot when he was/is on no talent teams like the Browns and Bills. We were excited about him when reading about his offense but now hes a bum. I haven't agreed with all his calls but I believe he will much better when we redo the weapons. You mean like the last two weeks?? No he wasnt. The reason Dabol left for the jets after the 05 season was because BB gave McDaniels play calling duties. Chad o Shea would have taken over play calling duties had McDaniels left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Exactly 53.7% of the blame. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Chris66 said: No he wasnt. The reason Dabol left for the jets after the 05 season was because BB gave McDaniels play calling duties. Chad o Shea would have taken over play calling duties had McDaniels left Interesting. So Daboll wasn't going to cut it with BB. And to think we were all proud that we stole Daboll from NE, where he was just going to be an assistant with no scheming or play calling duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris66 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Interesting. So Daboll wasn't going to cut it with BB. And to think we were all proud that we stole Daboll from NE, where he was just going to be an assistant with no scheming or play calling duties. Dont get me wrong BB likes Dabol. He has given him a job everytime he has needed one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFBillsfan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 IMO, he deserves just as much of the blame as anyone else. Players not lining up correctly, few rub routes, screens, short passes, reverse direction, motion, etc. Yes, talent is lacking but he continues to try to throw deep routes with WR’s who can’t separate, an OL that struggles to block and a QB who is still learning. The deep out he called with NP in the game was inexcusable and down right idiotic. Everyone knows NP can’t make that throw except NP, McDermott and Daboll! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel101 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) A lot a blind and def new born infant knows the Buffalo Bills are handing it off on first down. He has been out coached every game besides the minn game his schemes are basic no idea how to help get receivers open or how to put his rookie QB in a situation to read the field easily he was a waste Edited October 16, 2018 by Rebel101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Daboll, along with the entire staff around the offense deserves blame but I agree that the #1 problem is talent. I hear so many different things from fans saying what "he needs to do" it's really funny. 1. People want him to simplify his play calling while others say he runs too simple of a scheme. 2. Quick hit passes. That is Allen's weakness.......he can't see them yet. 3. Screen plays.......sure makes sense except that screen plays are designed with the OL having a lot of responsibility. 4. Scheme to protect the OL. 5. Scheme to help the WRs. 6. Ground and Pound.........Bills are second to last in Yards per Run. Ivory is averaging 2.5 yards per carry. The players on offense cannot even line up correctly (something they should know how to do since PeeWee) Bills offense has the MOST penalties of any team in the league. These are drive killers. Daboll may never be an elite or outstanding or even better than average OC. I don't know that yet but don't tell me that the talent doesn't have a lions share of blame when an offense is averaging 3.7 yards per play. 3.7 yards per play is "historically bad". These guys are playing football. You score points by running, passing and blocking better than the D. Better schemes win you Divisions and Super Bowls this teams O talent can't execute simple plays. I'm done with my rant. They can fire Daboll and hire any OC they want but until they get better players the O will suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FistingBot Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Daboll is offensive coordinator in Cleveland 2009-2010. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is offensive coordinator in Miami 2011. Among the worst offenses in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is offensive coordinator in Kansas City 2012. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" ….now Daboll is offensive coordinator in Buffalo. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is like my ex-wife. Never at fault. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, October 1918 said: Daboll is offensive coordinator in Cleveland 2009-2010. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is offensive coordinator in Miami 2011. Among the worst offenses in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is offensive coordinator in Kansas City 2012. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" ….now Daboll is offensive coordinator in Buffalo. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is like my ex-wife. Never at fault. ? All that is true. Now go look at his Head Coaches (all of them fired and among the worse in the league) and his QBs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 27 minutes ago, October 1918 said: Daboll is offensive coordinator in Cleveland 2009-2010. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is offensive coordinator in Miami 2011. Among the worst offenses in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is offensive coordinator in Kansas City 2012. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" ….now Daboll is offensive coordinator in Buffalo. Worst offense in the league. Fans: "it's not Daboll, it's a lack of talent" Daboll is like my ex-wife. Never at fault. ? Overall talent on those teams were also not great; GMs/HCs left a lot to be desired as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'll give an example. It was clear from a couple years back that several of the OLmen were decent in straight-up power blocking schemes. Not top notch, but capable. So at the start of the year, Daboll (or Castillo, but signed off by Daboll) had them doing lots of pin-pull stuff with multiple guys pulling, alternating with lots of cut blocking. It was a dismal fail, and on the occasions when they did employ more straightforward stuff (duo-type stuff with no lead blocker) it was notably more successful. Daboll would try 3 run plays resulting in -1 or -3 yards with DL/LB hurdling failed cut blocks or Ducasse tripping over Groy, then say "whups, we can't run" and put it all on Allen's arm. It took until Tenn. for Daboll to get the memo and scheme up some stuff that our OL could do - and when he did, lo and behold, we were able to get 3-5 yd chunks with some very nice play design. I haven't looked in as much detail, but it wouldn't surprise me if there would be similar examples in the pass game. Don't have Benjamin going deep, for example. He's gonna be covered like a blanket and Allen's gonna throw it away to a chorus of "look he's inaccurate on deep throws!" They have definitely had more success running since they simplified their blocking scheme but it isn't all positive. Ducasse who was decent through three weeks has sucked since because he couldn't block his dinner straight up 1 v 1 in run or pass. Equally the point of the more complicated rushing scheme they were trying to run was it set up the pass better. Daboll is a package play guy he wants looks that are the same that you can run, pass or option out of. That is harder when you are trotting out 21 personnel blocking the man in front and trying to run it down their throats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 The whole 'talent' argument. First off, I'm not so sure about that. Shady has had a HOF career and he has really struggled this year, once again, it's like no thought was put into our run blocking designs, none. Ivory and Murphy should also be way more productive, I miss the complexity of Greg Roman's run designs, I think Allen could really benefit from being on a power run team. This offense Daboll is running is for more polished and seasoned QBs, not someone that should have been sat down a year. Bottom line, this offense is meant to create mismatches in the passing game, which in theory sounds great if you have a QB that is developed, which we do not. So far Daboll's offense has been a complete disaster in terms of running the football. How much of this is talent? Let me ask you guys this, if we gutted our entire offense, all of the players, gone. Would you be surprised if some of our guys ended up with New England, LA and KC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Look I am not saying Daboll is great or even good. There is nothing in his history to suggest he is a great OC. I am saying you bring a guy in to run his offense and give him players who can't execute. They did it with Rick Dennison last year and they have done it with Daboll this year. The biggest problem last year was not Dennison. The biggest problem this year is not Daboll. The talent sucks folks. Not just a bit. A lot. LeSean McCoy apart this might be one of the least talented offenses that has ever taken an NFL field. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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