Bangarang Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: How is my example flawed? Please, go back like I did and watch the plays. Then if you think it's flawed, explain why. I already explained why it’s flawed but I’ll try again and you can let me know if I’m not making it clear. Your justification that he’s progressing is because you thought he played better against the Texans than he did the previous week against the Packers. I’m saying you need to take into account the entire body of work when trying to evaluate progress rather than simply going by a week to week basis like you did. Otherwise, one could counter your point and say he’s regressed badly because he was really bad against the Packers compared to his good performance the previous week against the Vikings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkirchofer Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Every other starting quarterback in the NFL has better stats that Allen this year. You could argue that Allen is more talented than some of those quarterbacks. The problem is coaching and game planning. McDermott and staff are over their heads when it comes to building a NFL caliber offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, jkirchofer said: Every other starting quarterback in the NFL has better stats that Allen this year. You could argue that Allen is more talented than some of those quarterbacks. The problem is coaching and game planning. McDermott and staff are over their heads when it comes to building a NFL caliber offense. Allen is more talented than all of them. The issue is that he's extremely unskilled. Who cares if you can throw a football 80 yards if you can't read a defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkirchofer Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Just now, jrober38 said: Allen is more talented than all of them. The issue is that he's extremely unskilled. Who cares if you can throw a football 80 yards if you can't read a defense? They drafted him under the understanding that they would teach him to read a defense. They have not accomplished that goal. Nor have they built the game plan that allows him to grow. They play it safe and vanilla because that is all McDermott and Dabol are capable of doing. If this kid washes out of the NFL, it is their fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Bangarang said: I already explained why it’s flawed but I’ll try again and you can let me know if I’m not making it clear. Your justification that he’s progressing is because you thought he played better against the Texans than he did the previous week against the Packers. I’m saying you need to take into account the entire body of work when trying to evaluate progress rather than simply going by a week to week basis like you did. Otherwise, one could counter your point and say he’s regressed badly because he was really bad against the Packers compared to his good performance the previous week against the Vikings. I see where you're coming from now. I would say he looks better in some ways even comparing to the Vikings game. The things folks are getting on him about are his ability to get pre-snap reads and go to a guy quickly, his pocket presence, and his accuracy particularly on short passes. I think he looked pretty good on all those Sunday. Now, that may be because the plays are calling for less reads. I don't know that; none of us would without knowing the play calls. But on most of his drop backs Sunday he looked like he knew right where he wanted to go with the ball and delivered it. That to me is progress. Other than the horrible first pass he either was putting the ball right on guys, or missing where it was a smart miss and where defenders could not make a play on the ball. He still needs to hang in the pocket longer on some throws. I think that will come with time. If what you are saying is that progress can only be defined as being better week 1, vs 2, then 2, vs 3, and so on, I would disagree. Young QB's will have ups and downs, good games and bad. Mayfield for example had a tough day this past Sunday, but I would not say he regressed. He just had a day that will happen with young QBs as they figure things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, jkirchofer said: They drafted him under the understanding that they would teach him to read a defense. They have not accomplished that goal. Nor have they built the game plan that allows him to grow. They play it safe and vanilla because that is all McDermott and Dabol are capable of doing. If this kid washes out of the NFL, it is their fault. When do raw QBs ever learn to read a defense once they get to the NFL? Josh Allen's college game tape didn't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, jrober38 said: When do raw QBs ever learn to read a defense once they get to the NFL? Josh Allen's college game tape didn't lie. I don't know. Terry Bradshaw? Jim Kelly? Carson Wentz? Phil Simms? Let's make it simple - pretty much any QB that comes into the league. They are all "raw" in terms of facing NFL defenses and their complexities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Fixit Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Epstein's Mother said: CJ (1-7) has only 3 more career starts than Allen (2-3) and 1 less career win. Measuring QB’s based on wins is so 1988. QBwinz. Hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronicAndKnuckles Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 15 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Goodwin has been in the league for 6 years and has 1,800 yards total receiving and 9 TDs. The bar is so low here we trip over it. I think he was being saecastic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris66 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I would say Allen has progressed since minny game. He hasnt fumbled 3x in any game since. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 41 minutes ago, jrober38 said: When do raw QBs ever learn to read a defense once they get to the NFL? Josh Allen's college game tape didn't lie. Um...all of them? Or did you think college defenses are as sophisticated as defenses in the NFL level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: If what you are saying is that progress can only be defined as being better week 1, vs 2, then 2, vs 3, and so on, I would disagree. Young QB's will have ups and downs, good games and bad. Mayfield for example had a tough day this past Sunday, but I would not say he regressed. He just had a day that will happen with young QBs as they figure things out. No, I’m not saying that progress can only be defined as something that is linear like that. I try not to look at it on a weekly basis though. However, I still think he’s struggling in all the same areas. Basically, I don’t expect to see much progression this year because of the situation he has been put in. Edited October 16, 2018 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisplacedBillsFan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, jkirchofer said: Every other starting quarterback in the NFL has better stats that Allen this year. You could argue that Allen is more talented than some of those quarterbacks. The problem is coaching and game planning. McDermott and staff are over their heads when it comes to building a NFL caliber offense. 1 hour ago, jrober38 said: When do raw QBs ever learn to read a defense once they get to the NFL? Josh Allen's college game tape didn't lie. I do think coaching is sometimes underrated actually. Speaking about McDermott specifically, as a defensive coach, look at what he has been able to do with this defense. And, he has done it with a group that includes a lot of guys that would be called below average from a talent level. Of course, now some of them seem like stars, but go back and look at how upset people were the Poyer was our choice for a starting safety. Now everyone loves him because our coaching is getting the most out of him. Tie this back to QBs, and for just one example, we'll use who seems like one of the ultimate QB gurus, or at least offensive minds, in Kyle Shanahan, and the QBs he has worked with. 2007 through 2009 - Houston Texans - In his first year as the Texans QB coach, Shanhan gets nearly 3900 yards passing and 24TDs out of Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels. We cannot really compare Schaub prior to this year, because he was mostly on the bench in ATL, but Schaub continued to produced mostly above average and even downright good (2009 - 4770 yards and 29TDs) good season, relying on Shanhan's coaching and development. 2010 - 2013 - Washington Redskins - An aging Donovan McNabb provided little production, and Rex Grossman was serviceable the following year, and Shanahan is then primarily credited with the development of both RGIII and Cousins. Remember, RGIII was once good, and his stats in 2012 read as 3200 yards, 20 TDs, 5 Ints. He had a similar season in 2013, though the interceptions increased. Cousins never got the chance to be the guy with Shanhan there, but did great during his limited playing time. 2015 and 2016 - Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan has always performed at a high level, but his only MVP season comes with Shanahan as the OC 2017 - Present - 49ers - Jimmy Garoppolo, who has a lot of hype but few stats, ends the season looking like the next great QB (After the trade with NE), and now we see Beathard, previously thought of as "not good", even in college he cause significant frustration during games with his play and decision making, playing at a high level. Even when Garoppolo went down, there were multiple analysts and writers that could not fathom how the 49ers were going to roll with Beathard. I guess what I'm saying with all of this is, yes, coaching absolutely does make a difference and is an issue for the Bills, and also yes, I do think Allen can learn to read a defense and can eventually be the guy that wins games for us, but man, we need that coaching for him, and right now, I believe superior offensive coaching is exactly what we do not have as part of this team. Edited October 16, 2018 by DisplacedBillsFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, jrober38 said: When do raw QBs ever learn to read a defense once they get to the NFL? Josh Allen's college game tape didn't lie. So it's all a lost cause. Josh Allen will never be successful in this league. Is that the bottom line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I’m not saying that progress can only be defined as something that is linear like that. I try not to look at it on a weekly basis though. However, I still think he’s struggling in all the same areas. Basically, I don’t expect to see much progression this year because of the situation he has been put in. I agree we won't see definitive progress till he has a better line and WR corps. But I am seeing good signs of progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Bangarang said: I think this method is flawed. I wouldn’t call it progress by comparing his worst game to a game where he was still bad but wasn’t a total tire fire. I see him still struggling with the same things now as when he first started. Would you say he’s regressing as a QB because he played significantly worse the week after the Vikings? When he first started - you mean a month ago? 1 hour ago, Chris66 said: I would say Allen has progressed since minny game. He hasnt fumbled 3x in any game since. Just can’t help yourself, can ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 3-more-career-starts and a Year riding the pine learning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 17 hours ago, BuffaloSkills said: Allen struggles to read defenses, holds the ball and then looks to run. he certainly doesn't look like a QB you take top 10 Sounds like you just described Tyrod, and I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris66 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, Success said: Just can’t help yourself, can ya? Just for you my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Chris66 said: I would say Allen has progressed since minny game. He hasnt fumbled 3x in any game since. Speaking of fumbles: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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