CommonCents Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 38 minutes ago, JohnC said: My opinion is that Beane more than McDermott was the driving force making maneuvers and trading assets to get their future qb. There is no doubt that McDermott has a lot of influence in personnel decisions. But my sense is that these two men are in sync and work out where they want to go and how they will get there. I don't see that as a problem as much as a unity in thought and purpose. There is no doubt that there isn't unanimity regarding personnel. That would be impossible. I just think that they have a good working relationship in which each party knows how to make accommodations. I'm not bothered with how much authority McDermott seems to have. When you are rebuilding a team you are going to make a lot of player decisions. Not all of them are going to work out. That’s fair, I’d still love to hear an explanation of what occurred with Peterman and QB position. The only one’s that should have been in that room with Allen were guys that could help him. They are going to have a hard time going forward if they continue to mismanage the most important position in sports. Blind faith isn’t an option. The duo has showed forward thinking and had me excited for the future but this is a pretty glaring mistake and one that two new guys can’t make and survive. Anderson needs to salvage the season or Allen needs to finish it on fire, otherwise these guys head into year 3 on the hot seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Indeed not all of them will work out. It isn't the punts in the dark I am so much bothered by. It is the shots that we already know are failures. Like keeping the worst Quarterback in NFL history as your backup that really cause me to second guess. No respectable team in this league would have gone into the year with Peterman as a backup. We went in with him as a starter. It would be unbelievable if it wasnt so true. The mistake that was made was bringing in McCarron. As it turned out Peterman beat out McCarron in camp. And then McCarron made it clear that he didn't want to be a backup and play a mentoring role for Josh Allen. (hear the Peter King interview with Murphy on WGR). Gunner, let the Peterman issue go. You are letting it plague you more than it should. In the grand scheme of things there are bigger issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Indeed not all of them will work out. It isn't the punts in the dark I am so much bothered by. It is the shots that we already know are failures. Like keeping the worst Quarterback in NFL history as your backup that really cause me to second guess. No respectable team in this league would have gone into the year with Peterman as a backup. We went in with him as a starter. It would be unbelievable if it wasnt so true. Well..........then you have people like John C writing off the mistakes because of a perceived "re-build". That's been the "catch-all" excuse for every regime that's been here. How many NFL teams need to be "re-built" in the 3-4 year sense that is sold as "the plan" to Bills fans? If every consistently competitive team in the NFL in this century rose from mediocrity........what does that say about "re-building" anything? In the NFL if you don't do something stupid with the hand you inherit......the opportunity to take that next step will come to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Commonsense said: That’s fair, I’d still love to hear an explanation of what occurred with Peterman and QB position. The only one’s that should have been in that room with Allen were guys that could help him. They are going to have a hard time going forward if they continue to mismanage the most important position in sports. Blind faith isn’t an option. The duo has showed forward thinking and had me excited for the future but this is a pretty glaring mistake and one that two new guys can’t make and survive. Anderson needs to salvage the season or Allen needs to finish it on fire, otherwise these guys head into year 3 on the hot seat. Your expectations are stretched out beyond reality. Anderson is not going to salvage the season because he is incapable of doing it. He was a pedestrian qb a decade ago and he is a shadow of that now. When your option is the least worst option you take the least worst option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Well..........then you have people like John C writing off the mistakes because of a perceived "re-build". That's been the "catch-all" excuse for every regime that's been here. How many NFL teams need to be "re-built" in the 3-4 year sense that is sold as "the plan" to Bills fans? If every consistently competitive team in the NFL in this century rose from mediocrity........what does that say about "re-building" anything? In the NFL if you don't do something stupid with the hand you inherit......the opportunity to take that next step will come to you. Every team rebuilds every year. Some more than others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, JohnC said: Your expectations are stretched out beyond reality. Anderson is not going to salvage the season because he is incapable of doing it. He was a pedestrian qb a decade ago and he is a shadow of that now. When your option is the least worst option you take the least worst option. Right and that’s why their mistake was so horrendous. More likely then not they enter year 3 on the hot seat. That’s not good for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Well..........then you have people like John C writing off the mistakes because of a perceived "re-build". That's been the "catch-all" excuse for every regime that's been here. How many NFL teams need to be "re-built" in the 3-4 year sense that is sold as "the plan" to Bills fans? If every consistently competitive team in the NFL in this century rose from mediocrity........what does that say about "re-building" anything? In the NFL if you don't do something stupid with the hand you inherit......the opportunity to take that next step will come to you. Perceived rebuild? Are you blind? If this isn't a near total rebuild then I don't know what one is. The roster has been shredded. A decision was made to take a major cap hit this year to clear the decks from a lot of baggage contracts. The scouting department under the Whaley group was summarily dismissed. A lot of maneuvering and dealing of picks was done to draft a qb in the last draft. If that isn't a sign of rebuilding then you are oblivious to what is going on. Whenever a lot of transactions are made it is not surprising that some of them aren't going to work out. You may be prescient but the common person doesn't have talent that you possess. I don't agree with everything that has been done by McBeane. It is fair to say that the qb situation has been bungled this year. But on the flip side this is a regime that took it seriously that there was a need to find a qb. In my opinion they did. That's something that hasn't happened to this historically bumbling franchise for a quarter-century. Last year's team was an overachieving team. So the expectations were higher than they should have been for this year's team. Both the offense and defense were not going to be rebuilt in two years. It's not surprising that a defensive coach made a decision to rebuild the defense before the offense. I may be in the minority but although I don't agree with everything that has been done I do understand what it is being done. You may not see the rationality behind most of the decisions but I do. 12 minutes ago, Commonsense said: Right and that’s why their mistake was so horrendous. More likely then not they enter year 3 on the hot seat. That’s not good for anyone. This regime is invested in their highly drafted qb, Josh Allen. Just as the Browns are invested in Mayfield, and the Jets in Darnold and the Cardinals are in Rosen. That's the nature of the business. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 hours ago, JohnC said: Last year's team was an overachieving team. So the expectations were higher than they should have been for this year's team. Both the offense and defense were not going to be rebuilt in two years. It's not surprising that a defensive coach made a decision to rebuild the defense before the offense. I may be in the minority but although I don't agree with everything that has been done I do understand what it is being done. You may not see the rationality behind most of the decisions but I do. Last year's team did very well but overachieved only in the sense that they got to the playoffs. Be that as it may, the success should have been a launching pad for a better 2018 season yet it is obvious that the team as a whole regressed. There really is no logic to loading up on defense at such a serious disregard for the offense. You are willing to excuse that as a 're-build' but I say there really was no reason to do that. A more balanced approach and a less "not drafted by me syndrome" would have been a practical way to go. How many new coaches are credited with over-achievement only to follow it up with a bad next season due to the lop-sided talent loading ? Getting at least one OL, getting a receiver like Crabtree would have been totally doable in this past offseason. Then there is a mis-judgment of the QB situation despite ample proof from last year that IntercePeterman will never ever be good enough to be on a roster. The trading of AJM was a monumental mistake. I am not willing to write it off as the price of such a re-build. Much as I disagree with BADOL, I am with him on this point that we kept getting this bill of goods in the package of a "re-build" when there is little other evidence that it is a strategy which is a winning one in the long run. It makes me sad to see the turn around by teams like the Rams, 49ers when we continue to wallow in mediocrity. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Simple recap of the McDermott-made tear down in Buffalo commonly mischaracterized as a rebuild: Prime aged former 1st round picks McD let walk or dealt for far below worth to the team: -Stephon Gilmore (signed by rival.....excels, goes to SB......his departure increased pressure to add a first round DB......perhaps facilitating a fateful trade) -Marcel Dareus (highest draft pick in past 35 years......run D went to hell without....6-10 record since trade) -Sammy Watkins (two firsts were invested in him.......WR corps since his departure has been worst stretch in team history) Prime age former second round picks McD let walk or dealt for much below their worth: -Bob Woods (blossomed into a very good WR in LA) -Ronald Darby (the other starting CB has turned into a star for Philly) -Cordy Glenn (excellent LT.......been a key for Cincy getting back into contention this season) Third rounder -Marquise Goodwin (would have been the #1 WR option last season) Basically ridded the team of very good players who had accounted for 7 recent first and second round picks. No team can withstand that kind of gutting and not find themselves short of assets to even replace them......let alone get better quick. I love me some Josh Allen........hope he bounces back and turns into a franchise QB but this team should never have been in position to be on the "step back" this year. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: Last year's team did very well but overachieved only in the sense that they got to the playoffs. Be that as it may, the success should have been a launching pad for a better 2018 season yet it is obvious that the team as a whole regressed. There really is no logic to loading up on defense at such a serious disregard for the offense. You are willing to excuse that as a 're-build' but I say there really was no reason to do that. A more balanced approach and a less "not drafted by me syndrome" would have been a practical way to go. How many new coaches are credited with over-achievement only to follow it up with a bad next season due to the lop-sided talent loading ? Getting at least one OL, getting a receiver like Crabtree would have been totally doable in this past offseason. Then there is a mis-judgment of the QB situation despite ample proof from last year that IntercePeterman will never ever be good enough to be on a roster. The trading of AJM was a monumental mistake. I am not willing to write it off as the price of such a re-build. Much as I disagree with BADOL, I am with him on this point that we kept getting this bill of goods in the package of a "re-build" when there is little other evidence that it is a strategy which is a winning one in the long run. It makes me sad to see the turn around by teams like the Rams, 49ers when we continue to wallow in mediocrity. You state your position very well. However, I respectfully and strenuously disagree with your stance. This regime could have easily improved their roster from last year. That would have been done by not cutting players and absorbing a large cap hit this year in a lump sum. Instead, they decided to take the cap hit in one large package instead of stringing it out over more years. That was the plan. You can disagree with the strategy but it is what they by design decided to do. With respect to the OL there were unexpected things that happened that diminished the OL. Who knew in advance that Eric Woods would not be able to continue on with his career because of an injury? Incognito was arguably our best blocker. But there were well documented mental health issues exhibited by his erratic behavior that certainly were a factor in moving on from him. As much as I liked Cordy Glenn and would have wanted to keep him I'm not going to criticize this outfit for a trade deal that moved us up the board to get our future (hopefully) qb. The size of his contract certainly was also a factor in moving on from him. The players that this regime got to fill those holes were basically cheap one year rentals. That tells you that they weren't going to spend heavily this year to buttress the line because they were more interested in a temporary patch and were more serious in addressing that line void more meaningfully in the future. I strenuously disagree with Badol where the Bills were as a team and what the strategy was for this new regime when they took over. This is an in your face rebuild. There is no subtlety to it. It is an explicit strategy of significantly restructuring the roster and the cap structure. You can disagree with the strategy but you can't fairly not acknowledge what they are obviously doing. Next year the Bills will have a sizable cap amount to work with and they will have a full complement of draft picks. That was the plan and it is being executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JohnC said: You state your position very well. However, I respectfully and strenuously disagree with your stance. This regime could have easily improved their roster from last year. That would have been done by not cutting players and absorbing a large cap hit this year in a lump sum. Instead, they decided to take the cap hit in one large package instead of stringing it out over more years. That was the plan. You can disagree with the strategy but it is what they by design decided to do. Next year the Bills will have a sizable cap amount to work with and they will have a full complement of draft picks. That was the plan and it is being executed. I get that they were trying to build up cap space but why sacrifice an entire season to get there ? I am no capologist but surely there are less painful ways to get there. And how did getting rid of AJM/keeping Peterman fit into this logic ? It does not. What about preaching performance yet continuing to hang on to Crossman ? I have been all about patience but it ran out sometime during the Jauron/Gailey years. Edited October 18, 2018 by Fan in Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: I get that they were trying to build up cap space but why sacrifice an entire season to get there ? I am no capologist but surely there are less painful ways to get there. And how did getting rid of AJM/keeping Peterman fit into this logic ? It does not. What about preaching performance yet continuing to hang on to Crossman ? I have been all about patience but it ran out sometime during the Jauron/Gailey years. The mistake that was made was getting McCarron. As it turned out Peterman out-played McCarron in camp. Does that make him a better qb? No. But based on performance he earned a spot ahead of McCarron. Go back and listen to the WGR interview with Peter King. He pointed out that McCarron wasn't interested in tutoring a rookie qb. He came to Buffalo to start. So when he didn't start he wanted out, and he was accommodated. The mistake that this regime made was getting McCarron instead of getting another vet placeholder. Next offseason the Bills are going to have a large amount of cap to work with and a full complement of draft picks. Assuming those assets are wisely utilized I'm hoping the roster will be significantly bolstered. The bottom line for this strategy to work is how Josh Allen develops. That's the primary issue that will determine success or failure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: I get that they were trying to build up cap space but why sacrifice an entire season to get there ? I am no capologist but surely there are less painful ways to get there. And how did getting rid of AJM/keeping Peterman fit into this logic ? It does not. What about preaching performance yet continuing to hang on to Crossman ? I have been all about patience but it ran out sometime during the Jauron/Gailey years. The cap thing is the second step in the bullish*t excuse. "Oh they were saddled with dead money" The cap is malleable........even if you eat dead money you can push cap dollars into the future to get players now. The Bills have horded so much cap space into 2019 and even more into 2020 that there is literally no way they can possibly spend it efficiently. The potential for desperate, counterproductive deals to be made is thru the roof. And because they have no young players of note on the team prior to the 2017 draft they can't even use their cap excess to extend guys like Milano or Dawkins or White until basically the start of the next decade. The smart way to handle your salary cap is to spread it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JohnC said: The mistake that was made was getting McCarron. As it turned out Peterman out-played McCarron in camp. Does that make him a better qb? No. But based on performance he earned a spot ahead of McCarron. Go back and listen to the WGR interview with Peter King. He pointed out that McCarron wasn't interested in tutoring a rookie qb. He came to Buffalo to start. So when he didn't start he wanted out, and he was accommodated. The mistake that this regime made was getting McCarron instead of getting another vet placeholder. Next offseason the Bills are going to have a large amount of cap to work with and a full complement of draft picks. Assuming those assets are wisely utilized I'm hoping the roster will be significantly bolstered. The bottom line for this strategy to work is how Josh Allen develops. That's the primary issue that will determine success or failure. The mistake was trading McCarron to the Raiders. (IMO) I could care less what happened in the preseason. Edited October 18, 2018 by Figster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: The cap thing is the second step in the bullish*t excuse. "Oh they were saddled with dead money" The cap is malleable........even if you eat dead money you can push cap dollars into the future to get players now. The Bills have horded so much cap space into 2019 and even more into 2020 that there is literally no way they can possibly spend it efficiently. The potential for desperate, counterproductive deals to be made is thru the roof. And because they have no young players of note on the team prior to the 2017 draft they can't even use their cap excess to extend guys like Milano or Dawkins or White until basically the start of the next decade. The smart way to handle your salary cap is to spread it out. I'm not confident of the players they're going to bring in on offense since they've made some poor decisions on that side of the ball this past off-season. Your point of desperate, counter productive deals is taken; it can't be over looked. But...they know they'll need to bring in a lot of new players (more than they can draft) and they'll probably need to over pay for a number of FAs, so it is reasonable to think that the extra cap space going into 2019 will have to be used on FA player premiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Happy Gilmore said: I'm not confident of the players they're going to bring in on offense since they've made some poor decisions on that side of the ball this past off-season. Your point of desperate, counter productive deals is taken; it can't be over looked. But...they know they'll need to bring in a lot of new players (more than they can draft) and they'll probably need to over pay for a number of FAs, so it is reasonable to think that the extra cap space going into 2019 will have to be used on FA player premiums. The problem is that lot's of teams have tons of cap space. It's not special anymore. The Jets and Niners had more cap space last offseason than the Bills have this coming offseason and they ended up almost empty handed because better teams have money to burn too and given the choice players go to the better team. Cap room is not the asset it was years ago..........the owners got over well in the last CBA and teams are sitting on tons of cap space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JohnC said: The mistake that was made was getting McCarron. As it turned out Peterman out-played McCarron in camp. Does that make him a better qb? No. But based on performance he earned a spot ahead of McCarron. Go back and listen to the WGR interview with Peter King. He pointed out that McCarron wasn't interested in tutoring a rookie qb. He came to Buffalo to start. So when he didn't start he wanted out, and he was accommodated. The mistake that this regime made was getting McCarron instead of getting another vet placeholder. Next offseason the Bills are going to have a large amount of cap to work with and a full complement of draft picks. Assuming those assets are wisely utilized I'm hoping the roster will be significantly bolstered. The bottom line for this strategy to work is how Josh Allen develops. That's the primary issue that will determine success or failure. John, I don’t think you’re right about the soundness of the McBeane Khmer Rouge approach to the roster - but even if you are, I’m quite certain the owners didn’t sign up for it. You make it sound like the team is acting in concert pursuant to a settled script and that’s really where I think you go off the rails. There is simply NO WAY that the Pegulas thought they were stomaching a 4-5 year gut reno. McDermott acts like he’s at the helm of some cushy college program where he’s been assured enough time to wait for his first recruiting class to blossom into seniors and IMHO he is SORELY mistaken about that. Again, I have been saying this since August - many of us have - these are reactive owners who hate being embarrassed and are patient until all of a sudden they aren’t and I predict that the patience will run out sometime over the next two weeks when Anderson’s custard melts all over the field. It’s going to be awful football to watch, the fans are going to lose it and the owners are going to take notice and react. How what will all manifest itself vis-a-vis Pol Pot McBean remains to be seen but we will see cracks in the OBD facade, I can almost guarantee it. Edited October 18, 2018 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 31 minutes ago, JohnC said: The mistake that was made was getting McCarron. As it turned out Peterman out-played McCarron in camp. Does that make him a better qb? No. But based on performance he earned a spot ahead of McCarron. Go back and listen to the WGR interview with Peter King. He pointed out that McCarron wasn't interested in tutoring a rookie qb. He came to Buffalo to start. So when he didn't start he wanted out, and he was accommodated. The mistake that this regime made was getting McCarron instead of getting another vet placeholder. Next offseason the Bills are going to have a large amount of cap to work with and a full complement of draft picks. Assuming those assets are wisely utilized I'm hoping the roster will be significantly bolstered. The bottom line for this strategy to work is how Josh Allen develops. That's the primary issue that will determine success or failure. No, the mistake they made is keeping and starting Peterman. It's inarguable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Again, so there is no misunderstanding about it: I predict that within 2-3 weeks we start hearing tangible reports that the owners are furious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 24 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: No, the mistake they made is keeping and starting Peterman. It's inarguable. That and with Allen's injury they appear to be late in getting him replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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