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So Eli Manning gets a pass but Josh Allen needs to produce NOW??


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31 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

So you fellas think I'm dumb. Well take a look at the preseason projections of the so called "experts" who have the Giants either winning the NFC East or having a record of 10-6 or better.  All based on the addition of Barkley, a solid WR corpse and an improved O Line.  So from day one, Eli has been given the benefit of the doubt given the improved team.

 

Yet Josh Allen has "Turnstile Trio" (Miller, Ducasse, Bodine), St. Francis High School JV split backs and a TE who averages a whopping 20 yards per game, yet he needs to sit??

 

This boy has fire in his belly, he's a wrecking machine and only wants to win. He needs to be unleashed.

 

Dude, one of the hallmarks of the "Troll" is the reiteration of a monotonic viewpoint while totally failing to acknowledge or respond to any viewpoints which logically disagree.  Just sayin'.

 

Your whole initial premise is faulty and false.  Eli is far from getting a "pass" for his play.  He is getting eviscerated in the press, before last night and worse now.

 

Next, Eli's struggles and Allen's are not comparable, because they have different root causes.  Eli has always been statuesque and needed a stout OL to function.  He's got the worst adjusted sack rate in the league at 12.7%, that's not because the OL is stout in front of him.  Eli can read D and make progressions, he's been doing it for 14 years.  The questions about Manning are, given enough time and WR separation, does he have enough arm yet to get it there and has his mobility gone from "adequate given protection" to "nonexistant"?  And finally, even the "Wreck of Elisha N Manning" is producing 6.7 ypa, 277 yds per game, and completing almost 68% of his passes.  We would all swoon for pass production like that from Allen at this point.

 

Now to this post:

Ivory and Shady are good backs, calling them "St Francis HS JV split backs" is appropriately described as "Dumb".  Allen has decent pass protection most of the time and when he doesn't, it's typically because of wrong protections or failure to read/react to the blitz, not because his OL are turnstiles, so at best that merits the "Ignorant of actual facts" description.  Finally, Allen has yet to show he can read a defense, identify and react to a blitzer, and on a regular basis make progressions and find the open man, which is the reason many think he'd benefit from more time to watch and learn and figure it out before having crazed 350 lb maniacs trying to eviscerate him on every snap.

 

And that, as they say, is that.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

We may be looking for an OC in a couple of years.

 

Shurmur made Bradford look functional and Keenum look very good.  Just sayin'.

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1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Not if they end up with a top qb next year.  I think Herbert of Oregon is pretty good.

I haven't seen any QBs really separate themselves from the pack.   I'm glad we got one in 2018 instead of going full Bills and drafting something stupid like a RB.   We've done that too many times to mention.   

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1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

So you fellas think I'm dumb. Well take a look at the preseason projections of the so called "experts" who have the Giants either winning the NFC East or having a record of 10-6 or better.  All based on the addition of Barkley, a solid WR corpse and an improved O Line.  So from day one, Eli has been given the benefit of the doubt given the improved team.

 

Yet Josh Allen has "Turnstile Trio" (Miller, Ducasse, Bodine), St. Francis High School JV split backs and a TE who averages a whopping 20 yards per game, yet he needs to sit??

 

This boy has fire in his belly, he's a wrecking machine and only wants to win. He needs to be unleashed.

Not dumb (if they did shame on them)  Stirring the pot?  Maybe.  ;)   

 

Imho (for whatever it means) Eli is done.  He was never great but good.   Stick a fork in the Giants.

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9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Dude, one of the hallmarks of the "Troll" is the reiteration of a monotonic viewpoint while totally failing to acknowledge or respond to any viewpoints which logically disagree.  Just sayin'.

 

Your whole initial premise is faulty and false.  Eli is far from getting a "pass" for his play.  He is getting eviscerated in the press, before last night and worse now.

Pretty sure the media fawned over him in the early going this summer. Can provide links if needed. There are still Eli fans out there...can't say the NY media is calling for his head without them also noticing that OBJ and his crew have played less than stellar. Add the Oline to the mix and you have yourself a self-destructing ship. 

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Next, Eli's struggles and Allen's are not comparable, because they have different root causes.  Eli has always been statuesque and needed a stout OL to function.  He's got the worst adjusted sack rate in the league at 12.7%, that's not because the OL is stout in front of him.  Eli can read D and make progressions, he's been doing it for 14 years.  The questions about Manning are, given enough time and WR separation, does he have enough arm yet to get it there and has his mobility gone from "adequate given protection" to "nonexistant"?  And finally, even the "Wreck of Elisha N Manning" is producing 6.7 ypa, 277 yds per game, and completing almost 68% of his passes.  We would all swoon for pass production like that from Allen at this point.

Split backs are wide outs in high school parlance (as I recall).  Shady and Ivory are the bright spots on our team....our  WR's (on the other hand) are reminiscent of those I used to watch on a chilly October Saturday in Western NY.

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Now to this post:

Ivory and Shady are good backs, calling them "St Francis HS JV split backs" is appropriately described as "Dumb".  Allen has decent pass protection most of the time and when he doesn't, it's typically because of wrong protections or failure to read/react to the blitz, not because his OL are turnstiles, so at best that merits the "Ignorant of actual facts" description.  Finally, Allen has yet to show he can read a defense, identify and react to a blitzer, and on a regular basis make progressions and find the open man, which is the reason many think he'd benefit from more time to watch and learn and figure it out before having crazed 350 lb maniacs trying to eviscerate him on every snap.

Again, Manning is the "Pro Bowl, Superbowl winning QB" who continues to get the benefit of the doubt by those who say "Look at his Oline, look at his TE, etc" yet Josh Allen has no tools other than Shady. I'd wager that the Giants have $20 million invested in their Oline and WR's more than the Bills, but some are calling for Josh Allen to be thrown into the pit of misery?? And only after FOUR! (4!) (Quatro!) games?  I rest my cases.

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And that, as they say, is that.

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

I haven't seen any QBs really separate themselves from the pack.   I'm glad we got one in 2018 instead of going full Bills and drafting something stupid like a RB.   We've done that too many times to mention.   

I definitely get this way of thinking and am somewhat on board with it.  That said, I don’t think you ever lose but putting special players on your team.  Barkley is a special player plus he is great in the pass game.

 

Obviously I’m not as high on Allen but I think I might actually like Herbert better.  Need to watch more of him though but he hastens phtsical skills and production in a big conference that I like.

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2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Not if they end up with a top qb next year.  I think Herbert of Oregon is pretty good.

 

I am not at all convinced on him. Early days though. I have only seen two games on tv. Don't get in to the proper work until November. At the moment I have him, Drew Lock and Jarret Stidham all a bit of a jumble - I have seen all 3 look good once and awful once. Shea Patterson I am coming back round to a bit and Jake Browning is a solid low ceiling guy who looks like a backup at the pro level. I'll be honest after that I am struggling for guys I have seen who are draftable. I need to get back round on Will Grier not watched him this year yet and the numbers are respectable. But I watched him twice last year and thought he was awful both times so I am not starting from a good place on him. 

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1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I definitely get this way of thinking and am somewhat on board with it.  That said, I don’t think you ever lose but putting special players on your team.  Barkley is a special player plus he is great in the pass game.

 

Obviously I’m not as high on Allen but I think I might actually like Herbert better.  Need to watch more of him though but he hastens phtsical skills and production in a big conference that I like.

Barkley looks incredible, so I get passing on QBs while you still have Eli.  If I were them I'd take the best QB I could in 2019 and go from there.  

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43 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Pretty sure the media fawned over him in the early going this summer. Can provide links if needed. There are still Eli fans out there...can't say the NY media is calling for his head without them also noticing that OBJ and his crew have played less than stellar. Add the Oline to the mix and you have yourself a self-destructing ship.

 

OK, now this is better.  You're responding to other posts here.

 

The media gets a lot of stuff wrong during preseason.  The point is, Eli was facing a barrage of criticism based upon his play last year and is facing it this year as well, as his actual regular season play emerges.  He's not getting a "pass" for anything he's doing in this season's games.  The fact that his WR and OL are also being called doesn't change that.

Meanwhile, Allen critique is usually footnoted that he is playing with a poor OL and bad WR, like the "problems GO BEYOND" thread.

 

So your whole initial premise that Eli gets some kind of "pass" not offered to Allen appears flawed from the start.  They are both facing criticism, which also fairly points out the team's problems go beyond QB.

 

43 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Split backs are wide outs in high school parlance (as I recall).  Shady and Ivory are the bright spots on our team....our  WR's (on the other hand) are reminiscent of those I used to watch on a chilly October Saturday in Western NY.

 

I'm far from the football terminology maven but as far as I know, "split backs" remains a term for a side by side RB/HB vs an "I" formation where they are lined up behind each other as halfback and fullback.  HS, college, pro.   All the 'prep sports' coverage around here keeps stats on WR and the kids who play it refer to themselves as WR. 

 

43 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Again, Manning is the "Pro Bowl, Superbowl winning QB" who continues to get the benefit of the doubt by those who say "Look at his Oline, look at his TE, etc" yet Josh Allen has no tools other than Shady.

 

And Allen gets the same benefit of the doubt by people pointing out his WR are lacking in articles like Draft Network "Allen's struggles go beyond lackluster supporting cast".  "Lackluster cast" means WR, OL, and until last week, run game, see?  It's cutting him some slack for that. 

 

You have a point in that when a guy like Manning lasts in the league and wins 2 Superbowls, he has earned more "benefit of the doubt" or slack than a rookie who can't make reads yet and is struggling to learn the accuracy on his short throws that he failed to demonstrate in college.

 

I'm not sure what your point is there?  Alert the media, people with a track record of accomplishments usually get more "benefit of the doubt" than those who struggle without the track record behind them.  It's not some nefarious plot.

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You'll never hear me say anything negative about Eli Manning or the Giants again...

 

They saved us from having to endure 19-0 AND another NE SB win after that. Without Eli making a few key throws and the Giants D shutting down Brady NE would be 7-1 in the Super Bowl. The thought of that brings vomit to the back of my throat.

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14 hours ago, RiotAct said:

well, two Super Bowl rings will afford him that luxury. 

Yup. Though it is about time he hung them up. He hasn't been a good QB for over four years now in all honesty. He isn't the only problem that franchise has, but the giants really need to move on. 

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1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not at all convinced on him. Early days though. I have only seen two games on tv. Don't get in to the proper work until November. At the moment I have him, Drew Lock and Jarret Stidham all a bit of a jumble - I have seen all 3 look good once and awful once. Shea Patterson I am coming back round to a bit and Jake Browning is a solid low ceiling guy who looks like a backup at the pro level. I'll be honest after that I am struggling for guys I have seen who are draftable. I need to get back round on Will Grier not watched him this year yet and the numbers are respectable. But I watched him twice last year and thought he was awful both times so I am not starting from a good place on him. 

 

 

Haskins?

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16 hours ago, YodaMan79 said:

He can thank David Tyree and Mario Manningham for not being run out of NY 10 years ago.  He's never passed the eye test of being elite.  Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  

I agree that Manning is overrated (actually, I don't think that many people rate him highly anyway) but you cannot give all the credit for those two plays to the receivers. On the Tyree catch Manning made an amazing play to avoid being sacked and to hang in there and spot the receiver. The Manningham play I've always seen as 50-50. Perfect throw and perfect catch.

 

You may as well say Montana should thank Clark for making The Catch.

 

And I will always have a special place in my heart for Manning as without him that arrogant bastard Brady would have another 2 Super Bowl wins and a perfect season to be smug about.

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I think a lot of people are missing the original point.  They were arguing that Eli did terribly his first season, but a lot of people were willing to give him a pass that season, yet four games in, people are already willing to write Allen off now.

 

The original post has nothing to do with Eli or the Giants this season.  It was comparing Eli and Allen's first seasons, and how people reacted to them.

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