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Hapless Bills Fan

Run Blocking vs Titans - all 22

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38 rushes by a back, I got miles to go. 

 

@BADOLBILZ  was speculating we wouldn't see anything substantially different in the run blocking this week.  That's both true and untrue.  While some elements were used at times (the more successful times) in previous games, a gimondulous pruning shears was taken to the run blocking of previous games, and there was much rejoicing.  3 key takeaways so far:

 

1) Not seeing those fancy-butt run-blocking wrinkles so badly executed in the first 4 games on the run plays - no pin-pull stuff, no cut blocks.  KISS, baby, KISS.  Simplify.  "There's your man, beat his ass".  "Got it"  For a change, the line looked like they knew what to do and enjoyed doing it.

 

2)  The backs, TE, and WR brought the Nasty this game.  Big time smackdown.  4th and 1 on possession after fumble, DiMarco just LEVELS TN linebacker Derrick Morgan, and in fact shoves him into the path of another LB and for a critical instant, holds the both while Ivory drives in and gets his yard and more.

 

Anyone seeking rest and refreshment of the spirit, I commend to you the watching of that play.  Aaaaaahhhh.  :beer:

 

3) Daboll has been using a lot of motion on run plays from the start - fake end-around, fake jet sweep by a nice light speedy dude like Foster or RayRay.  This game, he substituted a TE and used that to introduce a lead blocker.  On one play he sent Croom across the formation at the snap, almost like a fake jet sweep then used him as the lead blocker.   Shady picks up 4.  Niiiiice.

 

This is the sort of thing I was expecting out of Daboll and looking forward to pre season.  Now if it can only keep up.

 

 

 

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So you're saying this wasn't a total disaster offensively?  

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36 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

So you're saying this wasn't a total disaster offensively?  

Well, it was in the grand scheme of things since the NFL is a passing league.

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38 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

So you're saying this wasn't a total disaster offensively?  

 

I'm saying the run blocking was competent.  This is a positive change.

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1 minute ago, iinii said:

13 ain’t winning ball games either.

Won last week.

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1 minute ago, aceman_16 said:

Won last week.

So I left out many ball games. I think you know what I meant. 

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11 minutes ago, Boca BIlls said:

Well, it was in the grand scheme of things since the NFL is a passing league.

It's funny, it's a passing league and yet running teams with solid defenses always seem to make deep runs into the playoffs and appear in super bowls all the time too.

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6 minutes ago, iinii said:

So I left out many ball games. I think you know what I meant. 

Actually.... I don't know you well enough to "know what meant." I just assumed it was another "hot take" by some random poster.

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17 minutes ago, Boca BIlls said:

Well, it was in the grand scheme of things since the NFL is a passing league.

 

Oh, and all this time I thought it was having more points that won the game. My bad....

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KB sighting!  This is 2-12 from the Buff 6, 7:24 left in the 1st.  KB lays down a nice block, and really goes hard to stay with it for several seconds and enable Shady to get through the 2nd level without a lead blocker.  Croom, though, is a MONSTER.  Could we finally have found a TE who can block and catch?  That's 322 lbs of charging DaQuan Jones he stops and walks back (!!!)

 

image.thumb.png.27d2bdcc1cb7e5391dd72536cd51c110.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Oh, and all this time I thought it was having more points that won the game. My bad....

You cant do this weekly and expect a win every week... you cant be a winning team like this. Sure you can win a few game but you will never reach the goal doing it this way.

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Here's an example of a play that didn't work.  I can see what Daboll wanted to do, but I'm not quite sure what should have happened to adjust to the D coverage.  Your thoughts?  I have mine of course.

 

This is the 1st play of 2Q.  1-10 Bal41.  11 pers but Holmes is lined up inside the TE, fundamentally it's 12 pers.  Looks like Benjamin out wide, not sure who the slot is.  "No Sale #1": Fundamentally, the Titans have no concern about the WR on the weak side.  You can see before the snap that the CB opposite the slot guy is 100% focused on the line.  He could care less about the guy he's covering.  He's either gonna blitz, or he's gonna get in on some run tackling.

 

Spoiler: It's a run play, and he makes the tackle.

 

image.thumb.png.8569b2d182014bf9f52518a41566d2e6.png

 

Here's just after the snap.  Even before it, the CB was already three big steps towards the hashes.  As the slot receiver takes his first step, he's got no one covering him.

We can see Ducasse is gonna pull and Holmes is moving up to block.

image.thumb.png.5e3edde7265b33add2c0d781ca8c5a44.png

Holmes through the gap, Ducasse heading into it, Ivory still 2 yds back - but it looks like the CB is gonna get to the hole before Ivory does.

image.thumb.png.3aeebe6ea69e748b8954dd03c9c3d5a1.png

Here's a different view.  Holmes gamely taking on the LB, Ducasse heading for the hole with Ivory right behind him, but the CB closing fast.  Keep in mind this is forshortened, so you can't tell that Ducasse is still about 2 yds back from the hole and Ivory about 2 yds behind Ducasse, but you can tell by the blurry that Mr CB has a full head of steam on.

image.thumb.png.c33fd0cdf80f2fd53d2cdedc89f46d59.png

Timber!  That's Ivory at the L, being tackled by the CB who started the play lined up across from the slot guy. 

image.png.75de19006fa37d079047807da151fe47.png

At this point, the blocking across the line is breaking down.  Clay has lost his battle with his LB and been shoved back past the LOS.  Mills has been shoved right into the gap by his guy, so there isn't much gap left for Ducasse.  But the main issue is the CB charging over, who gets his mitts on Ivory to tackle for a loss (only, being Ivory, he fights his way back to the LOS)

 

What should have happened on this play?  Is it just a case of Ducasse and Ivory aren't fast enough to pull it off?  Or??

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

3) Daboll has been using a lot of motion on run plays from the start - fake end-around, fake jet sweep by a nice light speedy dude like Foster or RayRay.  This game, he substituted a TE and used that to introduce a lead blocker.  On one play he sent Croom across the formation at the snap, almost like a fake jet sweep then used him as the lead blocker.   Shady picks up 4.  Niiiiice.

 

This is the sort of thing I was expecting out of Daboll and looking forward to pre season.  Now if it can only keep up.

Would love to see Allen start to diagnose defenses on these run plays with pre-snap motion. It could potentially be a great foundation builder for him to read coverage without the added pressure of having to throw. I know how that sounds in reference to the future of our franchise, but if he really needs the help in this area of the game, this could be an equally efficient method in addition to the short/mid throw passing game. We all know what pre-snap motion can do on run plays in manipulating defenses, or giving the QB ability to flip the play, or note gaps in coverage. Something the Pats have used against us yearly, and Rivers does to us every other year.

 

As for Daboll, I think you even made the point in another thread that Daboll shouldn't be excused for what we've seen thus far, and the more I re-watch the games, I can see what people are saying about him. There are some great playcalls, and situational calls that make me excited for an offense we haven't seen in a long time. And at other times we just look lost. As much as I put this on the players before, I have to remember this is also Daboll's first year back in the NFL, not to mention his first year with these guys. So regardless of player talent, there will be natural growing pains in addition to some truly head-scratching calls and play execution. So far I've returned to the realm of skeptical for how our OC is fairing thus far in the league. Let's hope this gets better with the season moving forward.

Edited by ctk232

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3 hours ago, ctk232 said:

Would love to see Allen start to diagnose defenses on these run plays with pre-snap motion. It could potentially be a great foundation builder for him to read coverage without the added pressure of having to throw. I know how that sounds in reference to the future of our franchise, but if he really needs the help in this area of the game, this could be an equally efficient method in addition to the short/mid throw passing game. We all know what pre-snap motion can do on run plays in manipulating defenses, or giving the QB ability to flip the play, or note gaps in coverage. Something the Pats have used against us yearly, and Rivers does to us every other year.

 

As for Daboll, I think you even made the point in another thread that Daboll shouldn't be excused for what we've seen thus far, and the more I re-watch the games, I can see what people are saying about him. There are some great playcalls, and situational calls that make me excited for an offense we haven't seen in a long time. And at other times we just look lost. As much as I put this on the players before, I have to remember this is also Daboll's first year back in the NFL, not to mention his first year with these guys. So regardless of player talent, there will be natural growing pains in addition to some truly head-scratching calls and play execution. So far I've returned to the realm of skeptical for how our OC is fairing thus far in the league. Let's hope this gets better with the season moving forward.

 

I'm not exactly sure what pre-snap motion would do for us here.  Most of the runs I've seen so far vs Titans were heavy personnel - 21, 12, 22 or equivalent (eg positioning Holmes as a TE.

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3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Croom needs to stay on the field and be involved a lot more.......

 

I tell you what, I'm building up some Croom love.  Logan Thomas also laid down an evil block.

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90% of this board all knew that the strength of this line was in run blocking. Why Daboll failed to take advantage of that until the 4th game is beyond me, but I'm just going to assume that there was a justified reason because he's paid to coach and I'm not. Regardless, they played fantastic especially on the last drive and this proves it. Good defense and running the ball with an occasional "chunk" play by Allen should be this teams MO. I mean some Superbowl teams of the past were built on this very same notion. (I'm not saying Buffalo is a Superbowl or even a playoff team, but it's a good recipe.)

57 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I tell you what, I'm building up some Croom love.  Logan Thomas also laid down an evil block.

 

Croom is a surprisingly good blocker. I've been paying attention to him more and I think he's gonna end up replacing Clay in the long haul. 

 

Logan Thomas intrigues me as a project QB to tight end. He's the reverse Tannehill.

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On 10/9/2018 at 6:54 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

38 rushes by a back, I got miles to go. 

 

@BADOLBILZ  was speculating we wouldn't see anything substantially different in the run blocking this week.  That's both true and untrue.  While some elements were used at times (the more successful times) in previous games, a gimondulous pruning shears was taken to the run blocking of previous games, and there was much rejoicing.  3 key takeaways so far:

 

1) Not seeing those fancy-butt run-blocking wrinkles so badly executed in the first 4 games on the run plays - no pin-pull stuff, no cut blocks.  KISS, baby, KISS.  Simplify.  "There's your man, beat his ass".  "Got it"  For a change, the line looked like they knew what to do and enjoyed doing it.

 

2)  The backs, TE, and WR brought the Nasty this game.  Big time smackdown.  4th and 1 on possession after fumble, DiMarco just LEVELS TN linebacker Derrick Morgan, and in fact shoves him into the path of another LB and for a critical instant, holds the both while Ivory drives in and gets his yard and more.

 

Anyone seeking rest and refreshment of the spirit, I commend to you the watching of that play.  Aaaaaahhhh.  :beer:

 

3) Daboll has been using a lot of motion on run plays from the start - fake end-around, fake jet sweep by a nice light speedy dude like Foster or RayRay.  This game, he substituted a TE and used that to introduce a lead blocker.  On one play he sent Croom across the formation at the snap, almost like a fake jet sweep then used him as the lead blocker.   Shady picks up 4.  Niiiiice.

 

This is the sort of thing I was expecting out of Daboll and looking forward to pre season.  Now if it can only keep up.

 

 

 

 

That makes sense because they said the focus was on being more physical than the other team on both sides of the ball.  Usually when that is the gameplan, that means using simplified blocking schemes and just look to kick the other guys ass across from you.

Edited by matter2003
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On 10/9/2018 at 8:38 PM, Boca BIlls said:

Well, it was in the grand scheme of things since the NFL is a passing league.

 

So, I guess the grand scheme favors style points over wins?

 

I'll take the micro-scheme. 

 

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31 minutes ago, BillnutinHouston said:

 

So, I guess the grand scheme favors style points over wins?

 

I'll take the micro-scheme. 

 

Micro-Scheme... being just good enough to disappoint in the long run.

 

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1 hour ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

90% of this board all knew that the strength of this line was in run blocking. Why Daboll failed to take advantage of that until the 4th game is beyond me, but I'm just going to assume that there was a justified reason because he's paid to coach and I'm not.

 

We lost two of the OLmen who made runblocking a strength of the team, so I would have to say 90% of the board were uncertain, and worried, about the run blocking this year.

I've spent way too much time watching all-22 of the run blocking and I can tell you the run blocking for the first 2 games and much of the 3rd and 4th was a morass of unmitigated suckitude in the run blocking with occasional glimpses of competence.  I think a large part of this was asking the OLmen to do things they're not good at, such as cut blocking and pin-pull (which I know is basic stuff but Ducasse struggles and Bodine just can't)

 

So far in what I've watched, the run blocking has been greatly simplified, much to its advantage.  Some of what he's doing now may not succeed as well once it's on game film and other teams get the flick that the TE running across the formation is a blocker, not a sweep .  But a lot of it is just based on whup your man, so depending upon the man, it might.  I mean, DiMarco and Croom laid down some serious "I don't care if you know I'm gonna block eat dirt" Lumber. 

 

None of it will succeed as well without Shady.

 

Quote

Regardless, they played fantastic especially on the last drive and this proves it. Good defense and running the ball with an occasional "chunk" play by Allen should be this teams MO. I mean some Superbowl teams of the past were built on this very same notion. (I'm not saying Buffalo is a Superbowl or even a playoff team, but it's a good recipe.)

 

Agreed on both counts, although last week was probably a bit too heavy on the run.  50/50 is more like it.

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

That makes sense because they said the focus was on being more physical than the other team on both sides of the ball.  Usually when that is the gameplan, that means using simplified blocking schemes and just look to kick the other guys ass across from you.

 

One ass-kicking, delivered on schedule.  Now, will this work against Clowney and JJ Watt?  Stay tuned

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3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We lost two of the OLmen who made runblocking a strength of the team, so I would have to say 90% of the board were uncertain, and worried, about the run blocking this year.

I've spent way too much time watching all-22 of the run blocking and I can tell you the run blocking for the first 2 games and much of the 3rd and 4th was a morass of unmitigated suckitude in the run blocking with occasional glimpses of competence.  I think a large part of this was asking the OLmen to do things they're not good at, such as cut blocking and pin-pull (which I know is basic stuff but Ducasse struggles and Bodine just can't)

 

So far in what I've watched, the run blocking has been greatly simplified, much to its advantage.  Some of what he's doing now may not succeed as well once it's on game film.  But a lot of it is just based on whup your man, so depending upon the man, it might.

 

None of it will succeed as well if we sell Shady.

 

 

Agreed on both counts, although last week was probably a bit too heavy on the run.  50/50 is more like it.

 

It's pretty cool that you can divulge that info by watching the all-22. Do you have coaching exp by any chance? IMO as long as they get the win then I don't care if they go back to the wish bone and run it 90% of the time. The better Allen gets, the more that ratio should even out, but for now if it's working then why not? They just have to keep the score close. At the very least I think they should stick w/ that game plan heading into Houston. Watson has 300+ passing yards in his last 4 games and their best bet is to keep him off the field as much as possible. We all saw what happened when we tried unleashing Allen against Greenbay.

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22 hours ago, Boca BIlls said:

You cant do this weekly and expect a win every week... you cant be a winning team like this. Sure you can win a few game but you will never reach the goal doing it this way.

 

Here’s the thing...I DON’T expect to win every week. We are not talented enough for that yet (or probably ever). Right now I’m happy with a gritty win and the hope that they learn to win the close games. Down the road? That all depends on if Allen is the guy. I need to see more there to have a strong opinion. This year is about progress and hope, to me. 

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1 hour ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

It's pretty cool that you can divulge that info by watching the all-22. Do you have coaching exp by any chance? IMO as long as they get the win then I don't care if they go back to the wish bone and run it 90% of the time. The better Allen gets, the more that ratio should even out, but for now if it's working then why not? They just have to keep the score close. At the very least I think they should stick w/ that game plan heading into Houston. Watson has 300+ passing yards in his last 4 games and their best bet is to keep him off the field as much as possible. We all saw what happened when we tried unleashing Allen against Greenbay.

 

I'm not sure what info I'm "divulging".  If I were a coach, I could see it on broadcast film.  I'm not, I need the crutch of all-22 to slow things down, look at them from different angles.  Then they become much clearer.

 

No "Football Brain Trust" or advanced football acumen was needed to perceive the SNAFU on many of our run plays, I'm sorry to say.  When you got 3 OLmen cut blocking, and it winds up with 3 OLmen eating dirt while three DLmen hurdle them towards the RB, coaching chops ain't needed to say "well that was a Fail".  When you watch the LG trying to pull and he appears to trip over the center's feet, ditto.  When I tap someone who is a coach and who does scout and ask him "help a pal and tell me WTF that was supposed to be 'cuz I just can't figure it out" and he gets back to me saying "well I watched it about 15 times and I think they were trying to...."....yeah, that's AFU.

 

You should try it, it's fun.  Well, not as fun when watching something like the Packers game.  But generally fun.

 

I agree with the principle Just Win Baby, and I'm perfectly happy playing dink-n-dunk grind it out football, but if they can't diversify I feel we will quickly get stuffed.   Even when they have their Superchargers revved up, we don't have the quality of OLmen overall who can face a D that knows exactly what they're gonna do and force their will anyway.   

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