Thurman#1 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: The salary cap issue is way overblown on here. They were tight on the salary cap after the 2016 season, but they would've been fine going forward even with picking up Watkins contract, and keeping Dareus and Glenn. They obviously wouldn't have had the ability to sign guys like Star and Murphy but Id take keeping Watkins, Dareus and Glenn over having guys Star and Murphy on the roster any day. You act as if those guys were a prime reason for the mediocrity. Coaching was the issue. Not talent.... and as has been said millions of times, those guys are all starting on Super Bowl contending teams now. It's not, Scott. Not overblown one tiny little bit. They cut a number of contracts for cap reasons even under Whaley as the pressure mounted. And yeah, they could have kept going while picking up a bunch of other contracts. All they'd have had to do was keep re-negotiating contracts and kicking the can down the road, mortgaging the future and getting closer and closer to another complete purge year like the one that came about as a result of John Butler's overspending. Watkins, Dareus and Glenn would together have cost a ton more than Star and Murphy. Making that exchange would have put them yet further behind the eight ball. Watkins alone, with his 254 yards and 1 touchdown would have cost pretty much the same as Lotulelei and Murphy together over the next three years ... $48 mill over the next three years for Sammy. $22.5 mill over three for Murphy and Lotulelei averages $10 mill a year so his three year cost will be around $30 mill. And that's fine that those guys are starting on Super Bowl contending teams. First, none of those teams would NOT be Super Bowl contending teams without those players. Second and more to the point, those teams have different schemes, they have different coaches, different cultures and different salary cap situations. Know who else is on a Super Bowl contending team? Chris Hogan and Stephon Gilmore. Hell, Gillislee was there last year. Teams that use their cap intelligently can bring in guys who they think will help, as any look at the Patriots over the years will show. And as of next year, the Bills will be one of those teams because they'll have dug their way out of Whaley's overspending. Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Was LF's playbook too extensive and McD said simplify it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimebillsfan Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 12 hours ago, BringBackOrton said: McD was. The Titans don't have a losing record. They are the team with the winning record. I realized my error. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Oh, yeah, they had a ton of talent. Yeah, I remember those days, before Beane and McDermott came in, when this team was like a playoff juggernaut. Oh, for the good old days of 2016 when your three top receivers were frightening defenses all over the league by throwing up Madden-like stat years of production like 430 yards (Watkins), 613 yards (Woods) and 431 yards (Goodwin). Oh, and when you remember we had Percy Harvin and his hamstring on top of all those riches ... Yeah, we roamed the earth like titans back then. And all three guys have maintained their awesome levels of production on other teams as well. Oh, for the days when we had John Miller and Jordan Mills on the right side of the OL. Oh, wait. Yup, and remember that awesome defense? Wow, no telling how good we'd be if only we had starters like them ... Adolphus Washington, Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham with Jerel Worthy and Corbin Bryant picking up DL snaps and a gimpy Aaron Williams being spelled by Ihedigbo. Dude, that team was mediocre even before you get around to mentioning Tyrod Taylor, and that mediocre team was crammed up against the salary cap like a team at the end of a Super Bowl window. That's what ended up causing them to let go some pretty good players, such as Gilmore. Throw in the fact that they wanted to keep Eric Wood and Incognito but couldn't and it's ridiculous to think that team was a few pieces away. I mean, when you’re mentioning the third string safeties instead of the starters, that’s admitting defeat. “That team sucked! Look at the player we signed week 3 due to injuries.” Yikes dude. 10 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: It's not, Scott. Not overblown one tiny little bit. They cut a number of contracts for cap reasons even under Whaley as the pressure mounted. And yeah, they could have kept going while picking up a bunch of other contracts. All they'd have had to do was keep re-negotiating contracts and kicking the can down the road, mortgaging the future and getting closer and closer to another complete purge year like the one that came about as a result of John Butler's overspending. Watkins, Dareus and Glenn would together have cost a ton more than Star and Murphy. Making that exchange would have put them yet further behind the eight ball. And that's fine that those guys are starting on Super Bowl contending teams. First, none of those teams would NOT be Super Bowl contending teams without those players. Second and more to the point, those teams have different schemes, they have different coaches, different cultures and different salary cap situations. Know who else is on a Super Bowl contending team? Chris Hogan and Stephon Gilmore. Hell, Gillislee was there last year. Teams that use their cap intelligently can bring in guys who they think will help, as any look at the Patriots over the years will show. And as of next year, the Bills will be one of those teams because they'll have dug their way out of Whaley's overspending. How much did we save this year with KB over Watkins? 4M? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: What was our cap two years ago? How bout last year? Both ended up around $5 mill or less, if I remember correctly, but that's missing the point. You're not necessarily in cap trouble when you end up close to the cap for a given year. You're in cap trouble when you're running low on funds for the next year while you're still in this year. And that's how the Bills have been for the last three or four years. And thank goodness Beane and McDermott held their nose closed and swallowed their bitter medicine this year. Some of that dead money this year could've been kicked down the road. They didn't do it, for exactly the reason that they want to clear out future cap as they told the Pegulas they would do. Next year they'll be able to re-sign any players who play well enough to warrant it. They'll be able to bring in a bunch of the low- to medium-priced FAs who can fill holes at WR and OL and elsewhere with capable though not outstanding guys. And they'll be able to do that each year because with them in charge the Bills are finally treating the cap the way the Steelers, Pats, Packers, Ravens, Eagles (and, um, the Panthers) ... the best and most consistent teams ... treat it. Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: I mean, when you’re mentioning the third string safeties instead of the starters, that’s admitting defeat. “That team sucked! Look at the player we signed week 3 due to injuries.” Yikes dude. How much did we save this year with KB over Watkins? 4M? Hmm, how much will we save with KB over Watkins? You do the math, dude, Sammy's under contract for $48 mill over 3 years. KB's under contract for this year only for about $8 mill. The short answer? Not $4M. A ton. And the one admitting defeat is you. You couldn't even bring yourself to mention the players I listed, six or seven of whom were (lousy) starters. I mentioned Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham, Miller, Mills, Goodwin (431 yards), Woods (613 yards) and Watkins (430 yards) and Tyrod. No wonder you couldn't answer. Makes me a bit sick to my stomach to type that wave of mediocrity. My work here is done, because you're not even giving serious replies anymore, just unsuccessfully trying to distract and save face. Edited October 9, 2018 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 It’s really too bad these next two winnable games are on the road. I could see the Bills feeding off a home crowd against the Texans and Colts...but they’ll get no such break. This year’s schedule is a tough one for a team trying to figure itself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Hmm, how much will we save with KB over Watkins? You do the math, dude, Sammy's under contract for $48 mill over 3 years. KB's under contract for this year only for about $8 mill. The short answer? Not $4M. A ton. And the one admitting defeat is you. You couldn't even bring yourself to mention the players I listed, six or seven of whom were (lousy) starters. I mentioned Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham, Miller, Mills, Goodwin (431 yards), Woods (613 yards) and Watkins (430 yards) and Tyrod. No wonder you couldn't answer. Makes me a bit sick to my stomach to type that wave of mediocrity. My work here is done, because you're not even giving serious replies anymore, just unsuccessfully trying to distract and save face. Watkins played like 8 games that year. Stop embarrassing yourself. If we had picked up Sammy’s fifth year, it would have been $4M in difference from KB. Oh, and we would still have another 3rd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Regarding the wins...it doesn't matter who you beat or how....it's a win and it's a good thing...any of you that played competitive sports knows at the end of the game it's the final score that counts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 14 hours ago, BringBackOrton said: Because you're dead wrong. That's why it's so funny. We had the assets to get the QB all along. Our head coach passed on Watson AND Mahomes. If we had re-signed Woods, we would have had Watson/Mahomes in 2017 passing to Watkins, Woods, Zay, with Richie, Wood, Glenn, Darby, Hyde, Poyer, Dareus, Hughes, Kyle, Dawkins, Milano. Acting like this FO "got it right" trading everyone from the 2016 team away, just to get assets to try to replace them is hilarious. And acting like they needed to trade everybody to get a QB when they had already passed on two better ones to get a DB is even more funny. So, I guess you 2 don't agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 so...what i'm getting from this thread is that the bills are done building, and that the salary cap problems were a lie. nice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, teef said: so...what i'm getting from this thread is that the bills are done building, and that the salary cap problems were a lie. nice. ...and, apparently, that you should never, ever lose your rage over past team decisions you didn't agree with, or stop expressing that rage in every other post that you write... Edited October 9, 2018 by billsfan1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: ...and, apparently, that you should never, ever lose your rage over past team decisions you didn't agree with, or stop expressing that rage in every other post that you write... i am into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Dirty B Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Oh, I answered that post because I thought it was Orton. If I'd realized it was you, I wouldn't have bothered answering. And you're right, your post was indeed some quality crap. Another awful post. You realize you're on two posts of saying nothing and attempting to insult people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 16 hours ago, BringBackOrton said: Because you're dead wrong. That's why it's so funny. We had the assets to get the QB all along. Our head coach passed on Watson AND Mahomes. If we had re-signed Woods, we would have had Watson/Mahomes in 2017 passing to Watkins, Woods, Zay, with Richie, Wood, Glenn, Darby, Hyde, Poyer, Dareus, Hughes, Kyle, Dawkins, Milano. Acting like this FO "got it right" trading everyone from the 2016 team away, just to get assets to try to replace them is hilarious. And acting like they needed to trade everybody to get a QB when they had already passed on two better ones to get a DB is even more funny. Himdsight is a factor, but this is undeniably a solid point. It’s not like there weren’t plenty of us calling for Watson or Mahomes either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: No, it's not on Beane's shoulders. What's on Beane's shoulders is what happened after he became GM. Many or most of the changes you're talking about happened before he got here. And no, stupid posts are absolutely NOT his fault. They are the fault of posters who don't get it. What don't they get? That we're a year and 5 weeks into a rebuild which will not be able to be judged till 3 - 5 years in. People who try to judge now are being clueless. And no, that's not Beane's fault in any way. As for the accelerated cap, yup, they're the ones who accelerated it. Precisely because they'd been told to completely clean up the cap mess by the owners. Fans love to ignore that, but GMs who enjoy their jobs can't ignore what they're told by the Pegulas of the world. They accelerated the cap hits because they'd been told to clear up the cap by the end of this year. Not before. By the end of this year. All those accelerated cap hits hurt this year but will be totally off the books by the owners deadline. Again, fans who want to make final judgments now are simply part of their own little process, in this case the process of "not getting it." And no, that's not Beane's fault. you got it backwards. Beane advised Pegula he was going to fix the cap problem and it would take a couple years to do it. Pegula wanted Mahomes as his QB and for unknown reasons Whaley and McDermott would not draft him when they had the chance. A report says Whaley was fired for that reason. I don't believe that, as other reports had Whaley really liked D Watson, and very likely McDerma exerted his influence on Whaley to not take a QB until his friend Beane was hired. 11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Oh, yeah, they had a ton of talent. Yeah, I remember those days, before Beane and McDermott came in, when this team was like a playoff juggernaut. Oh, for the good old days of 2016 when your three top receivers were frightening defenses all over the league by throwing up Madden-like stat years of production like 430 yards (Watkins), 613 yards (Woods) and 431 yards (Goodwin). Oh, and when you remember we had Percy Harvin and his hamstring on top of all those riches ... Yeah, we roamed the earth like titans back then. And all three guys have maintained their awesome levels of production on other teams as well. Oh, for the days when we had John Miller and Jordan Mills on the right side of the OL. Oh, wait. Yup, and remember that awesome defense? Wow, no telling how good we'd be if only we had starters like them ... Adolphus Washington, Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham with Jerel Worthy and Corbin Bryant picking up DL snaps and a gimpy Aaron Williams being spelled by Ihedigbo. Dude, that team was mediocre even before you get around to mentioning Tyrod Taylor, and that mediocre team was crammed up against the salary cap like a team at the end of a Super Bowl window. That's what ended up causing them to let go some pretty good players, such as Gilmore. Throw in the fact that they wanted to keep Eric Wood and Incognito but couldn't and it's ridiculous to think that team was a few pieces away. That team you speak so negatively about had a 9-7 record under Marrone and was ONE very good QB and a year of better health from the rest, away from being a real Super Bowl contender. Edited October 9, 2018 by cba fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, BringBackOrton said: No. Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes are 1000000000% better QBs than Josh Allen right now. That's pure objective fact. They threw out the baby with the bathwater. They have to prove their baby is better. When we have 1 million posts on how the offense sucks, how this team has no talent, how this is the growing pains, that's completely on McBeane's shoulders. They created this roster. They accelerated dead cap by moving players they didn't have to. They traded a 3rd round pick for KB. They let go or released or traded players. Stop saying "THEY"! Seriously what is your major malfunction that keeps from you understanding the fact that NEITHER Mahomes or Watson has ANYTHING to do with Beane. He was not the GM of that draft. Neither does Woods, Goodwin, etc. You keep ranting about moves our front office has done and lump in Beane with those decisions. Beane was here for ONE draft and in that ONE draft he went and got a QB. And that was THIS year. Edited October 9, 2018 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 3 hours ago, fridge said: Himdsight is a factor, but this is undeniably a solid point. It’s not like there weren’t plenty of us calling for Watson or Mahomes either. What there were a bunch of fans calling for the drafting of one of the top QB prospects for a team with a bad QB...how shocking. I mean just looking at the last draft there were plenty of people rooting for several different QBs but you don't listen to the fans on that you do some serious scouting and pick who, with your actual football experience, you think is the best fit. I don't think he had enough time to be as confident as you want to be when making that choice in that draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 9 hours ago, teef said: so...what i'm getting from this thread is that the bills are done building, and that the salary cap problems were a lie. nice. Cake walk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Stop saying "THEY"! Seriously what is your major malfunction that keeps from you understanding the fact that NEITHER Mahomes or Watson has ANYTHING to do with Beane. He was not the GM of that draft. Neither does Woods, Goodwin, etc. You keep ranting about moves our front office has done and lump in Beane with those decisions. Beane was here for ONE draft and in that ONE draft he went and got a QB. And that was THIS year. Dude, McD hired Beane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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