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O Line why is it bad?


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18 minutes ago, wiskibreth said:

This^^  Plain and simple.

The lack of talent on this offense overall is astounding.

I pray Allen doesn't get hurt, and actually learns valuable lessons for every lump he's going to take this season and gets better.

Me too- Allen has to help himself some as well. Daboll also needs to come up with a way that allows Allen to get the ball out quick. He took a beating yesterday. Our staff should be ashamed they let it come to this. 

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54 minutes ago, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

It’s bad because it’s full of a bunch of no talent assclowns

Not to mention a no talent assclown line coach.    

22 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

One thing I remember from previous seasons' all-22 is how one clueless lineman can !@#$ up the entire blocking scheme, because everyone has to somehow try to support that hole.  It might be the position on the field most dependent on teamwork.  

 

This line, for whatever reason, not only isn't on the same page, they're not even reading from the same book.  They're not the most talented group, but when you've got guys double-teaming rushers and letting other rushers run free to the QB, it's not a talent issue.

Coaching... Or lack Ther of

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1 hour ago, GrizzReaper said:

Or if it's the players just not possessing the talent to get it done then they need to try to bring in someone off a practice squad or something right?

STOP SAYING PROCESS hahaha it's a noun, verb, adverb, adjective, pronoun, metaphor, myth. What the hell does that mean?? Maybe our offensive line isn't processing well cause they suck.

 

Oh.. you said possessing.. my b. No they don't possess the talent. And they possess more talent than *most PS players. In the NFL talent is a very high level. These guys suck in the NFL but they certainly belong more than most PS guys. Sucking is a granular degree in the NFL. They suck. But they don't suck as much as UDFA from Michigan State or whatever. They are the among the best offensive linemen in the world. They just happen to be in the 100-200 rank of OL. You can't just sling **** at the wall and hope it sticks. That's the Peterman train.

Edited by PetermanThrew5Picks
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23 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Me too- Allen has to help himself some as well. Daboll also needs to come up with a way that allows Allen to get the ball out quick. He took a beating yesterday. Our staff should be ashamed they let it come to this. 

Of course. There's absolutely things they can do to help hide their weakness.

Run the ball more with overloaded running packages - 2 tight end sets.

Quick passing - When was the last time we saw any semi-pick-play quick slants?

Would love to see McCoy involved more in the passing game. - Do what the Patriots do, scheme him to get him on-on-one with a LB.  That's an easy win.

Bubble screens, heck, screen passes in general.  Those are designed to defeat blitzing, and you know they're going to be coming after him.

 

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2 hours ago, GrizzReaper said:

 

Against the Chargers, it was evident that the OL was performing fine; but the TEs and RBs couldn't hold their blocks.  They fixed that against he Vikes game...However, agains the Packets, both the line and the TE/RBs sucked...On different plays we had at least 3 defenders running free towards Josh.  The Right Tackle was constantly getting bull rushed allowing the DL to get to the QB or the QB lane several times.

2 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

The Oline is bad

 

Receivers dont get seperation and run poor routes

 

The QB is raw and holds onto the ball too long

 

All this makes the O line look worse than bad

And teh TE and RBs haven't been able to block their guys!

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42 minutes ago, BuffaloBillies said:

In off season, need to sign a top notch experienced FA Center to be the leader.

Then draft monster LT in round 1. Move Dawkins to RT. Draft an OG in round 2 or 3.

Hopefully Teller is ready by then too.

 

Net: 4 new linemen,  move Dawkins to RT

 

It's slim pickings even before teams re-sign 2019 FA Centers.

 

Paradis and Morse (both playing tonight) and Easton (if his neck is healthy) will almost certainly be re-signed.

Brett Jones is a LG/C Vikes picked up after Easton went down.

Garland is a backup LG/C.

 

After teams re-sign there own Bills will have to "battle" with any other team wanting a Center in FA.

Ryan Kalil is old BUT he has that Carolina connection LOL.

Here is the list.

                                        Age

Ryan Kalil C   34   CAR TBD $8,375,000 UFA 0-
Jones Brett Jones C 28 MIN TBD $2,914,000 UFA 0-
Easton Nick Easton C 27 MIN TBD $2,914,000 UFA 0-
Garland Ben Garland C 31 ATL TBD $2,914,000 UFA 0-
Paradis Matt Paradis C 29 DEN TBD $2,914,000 UFA 0-
Morse Mitch Morse C 27 KC TBD $1,168,269 UFA 0-
Marpet Ali Marpet C 26 TB TBD $943,397 UFA 0-
Bergstrom Tony Bergstrom C 33 WAS TBD $880,000 UFA 0-
Harrison Jonotthan Harrison C 28 NYJ TBD $880,000 UFA 0-
Schwenke Brian Schwenke C 28 NE TBD $790,000 UFA 0-
Swanson Travis Swanson C 28 MIA TBD $790,000 UFA 0-
Grasu Hroniss Grasu C 28 BAL TBD $790,000 UFA 0-
LeRibeus Josh LeRibeus C 30 NO TBD $790,000 UFA 0-
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So we have a multi faceted problem here...

 

WRs can't get open quickly so line has to block too long...

 

QB is raw and can't determine where to throw the ball quick enough so he either a: holds the ball too long or b: rolls out right and takes a 30 yard sack after spinning like a top with no real sense of direction...

 

Then we have guys that really the talent just doesn't seem to be there. 

 

The OL coach seems to be just as talentless as the guys he's trying to coach up...

 

Then our only real light at the end of the tunnel is FA which looks bad and the draft which is a crap shoot... Not to mention we have to endure 13 more games of watching it...

 

This is bad boys... Really bad. Hope our rookie doesn't get crippled or mentally shell shocked before the line improves.

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22 minutes ago, BuffaloBillies said:

 

Good info. That doesn't look promising.

How about FA LTs? (And take top center in first round).

 

Don't shoot me I'm only the piano player.

 

Ty Nsekhe  LT   33   WAS TBD  $2,914,000   UFA 0-
Ogbuehi Cedric Ogbuehi LT 27 CIN TBD $2,331,419 UFA 0-
Smith Donovan Smith LT 26 TB TBD $1,517,215 UFA 0-
Fisher Jake Fisher LT 26 CIN TBD $1,064,880 UFA 0-
Sambrailo Ty Sambrailo LT 27 ATL TBD $961,489 UFA 0-
Young Sam Young LT 32 MIA TBD $915,000 UFA 0-
Clark Chris Clark LT 33 CAR TBD $915,000 UFA 0-
Robinson Greg Robinson LT 26 CLE TBD $790,000 UFA 0-
John Ulrick John LT 27 NE TBD $745,000 UFA 0-
Brown Trenton Brown LT 26 NE TBD $583,973 UFA 0-
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3 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

biggest issue I see is when teams bring delayed pressure , instead of picking up the free runner out guards have a tendency to needlessly double a guy who is under control thus opening up lanes for Allen to get smashed.  Allen not helping by some indecision (again out wr core sucks so hard to know if a passing lane is there) and also he's leaving a clean pocket too often mostly to flee to his right  He's gotta trust the protection and thus far its not happening  Run the football and have the vet center call out the protection till Allen is ready too the problems pre snap

 

When Castillo was coaching OL in Baltimore, the Ravens OL kind of sucked.  They looked confused a lot.  I haven't looked closely at their personnel, and TBF he wasn't the only coaching change, but last year and this year the Ravens run game took big steps forward - from like barrel-scraping to good - and Flacco looks revitalized.  Castillo appears to have been "addition by subtraction" for them.  But I think in Philly he and McDermott swore an oath to be as brothers and never let each other down so he's "Teflon Juan" here.  Wish they'd go Biblical on the brotherhood thing - Cain and Abel come to mind.

 

I see a lot of the same confusion on our OL with delayed pressure.  Under this scheme, it's like the OLmen have become automata who don't react to an unblocked defender right in front of their eyes.

 

The pass blocking isn't as bad as many think though.   There are times when Allen has time, and has a guy to throw to, and just doesn't see it.

 

The run blocking is what sucks great big drippy wads of goo.

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4 hours ago, DC Tom said:

One thing I remember from previous seasons' all-22 is how one clueless lineman can !@#$ up the entire blocking scheme, because everyone has to somehow try to support that hole.  It might be the position on the field most dependent on teamwork.  

 

This line, for whatever reason, not only isn't on the same page, they're not even reading from the same book.  They're not the most talented group, but when you've got guys double-teaming rushers and letting other rushers run free to the QB, it's not a talent issue.

The collective football IQ of this group is 58

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4 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

biggest issue I see is when teams bring delayed pressure , instead of picking up the free runner out guards have a tendency to needlessly double a guy who is under control thus opening up lanes for Allen to get smashed.  Allen not helping by some indecision (again out wr core sucks so hard to know if a passing lane is there) and also he's leaving a clean pocket too often mostly to flee to his right  He's gotta trust the protection and thus far its not happening  Run the football and have the vet center call out the protection till Allen is ready too the problems pre snap

I think this is the biggest problem. Allen is simply not reading these defensive stunts/delayed blitzes, etc and adjusting.

One of the better interviews I heard was with Gerald McCoy of the Bucs a couple years ago. Question: who is the best QB you ever played against? Answer: Peyton Manning. McCoy explained that the Bucs were going to run a little stunt where he and another D lineman or linebacker were going to swap the gaps they came through. McCoy said they'd never run this before, so there was no tape on it. He said that as far as he knew, they disguised it perfectly; no "tells." But guess what? They line up and the next thing McCoy hears is Peyton yelling out something like "93's got the B gap."  McCoy never figured out how Peyton knew this, but the fact is that he did; the Broncos adjusted coverages and got a big completion.  Sometimes it's not "the O line sucks." Sometimes it's "the QB is too inexperienced to put the O line in a position to succeed." And the Packers exploited this perfectly.

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9 hours ago, GrizzReaper said:

So I watched our QB get obliterated on the regular this Sunday... I also have seen our running game be nearly non existent this season. Then I watch these press conferences and listen as McDermott and Daboll try their best not to throw their offensive line under the bus... They say things like yeah they had a rough game and Josh took sacks and it's partly his fault for holding the ball too long etc etc... I get it noone wants to just Chuck a guy under the bus. However I think they need to address the offensive line failures asap. Like be for real and stop dancing around it because it's an issue.

 

The way I see it... If the coaches think these lineman have the talent to play at this level that they can be serviceable lineman in the NFL then the obvious culprit for their woes has to be Juan Castillo right? Or if it's the players just not possessing the talent to get it done then they need to try to bring in someone off a practice squad or something right?

 

My worry is that I've watched LeSean McCoy fade away into nothing as a running back trying to run behind these guys.

 

I've watched defenses blow straight past our line on numerous occasions this season. I watched Green Bay run a blitz up the same gap numerous times and watch the LB smash Allen Everytime he did it!

 

So what is the issue? Is it these guys are seriously that bad and just not growing? Or is Castillo just utterly failing them as a coach? 

 

Either way I'm hoping something is done to address that aspect of the team. If that line can't protect that rookie QB throughout this season say Allen gets broken.... Boy o boy what a total and frustrating waste of a season will this be then? What happens if Allen gets injured because he gets sacked how 28th time next week and we have Peterman for x amount of games? How pissed will people be about that situation?

 

So I'm just wondering what everyone else out there thinks about the state of our offensive line... The sacks, the lack of a run game, the abuse this rookie is taking behind these guys. Is it the players being that bad or is it the coach failing them? Personally I think it's the coach... I think whatever Castillo is coaching these guys up to do simply isn't working. I see them bumbling and stumbling, getting pushed into their QB/RB, I see defenders just flying through gaps umabated. It's horrible. 

 

What's the solution? Can it be fixed or patched up sometime this season if at least for the hopes of keeping Allen healthy for this entire "learning" season. Does anyone know if Castillo is historically bad? Has Shady just lost it as a RB or is it really the line to blame? Is it really just Josh Allen not reading what the defense is going to give him fast enough and holding the ball making them look so bad?

 

Anyways just wondering how the rest of the fanbase feels about the situation and how if any way it can be remedied at this point. 

This was what I had replied in the Monday press thread... It's my original rant

 

What I'm seeing is a HC try his damndest not to throw his o line under the bus... They are bad. Point blank period. So it's kind of comical to listen to him try to answer these questions in a way where he's trying spread the blame around a bit. I mean yeah I'm sure Allen being a rookie has something to do with the sacks and hitsbhes taken so far... but we can't keep trying to dance around the fact that this line is playing very poorly and inconsistent... Or maybe they're consistently bad idk. 

 

So if we do like McDermott says and start in the trenches and winning the line of scrimmage then who does that fall on the o line players and Juan Castillo. So if the coach believes his players are talented enough to at least be a serviceable offensive line then I think obviously the problem can be traced back to the coach. So fire the guy and get someone else... Either find a couple decent lineman in some dumpster out there if he believes it's the lack of player talent OR fire the fricken line coach and get a guy that can get these players to play up to the talent level he believes they possess....

 

We can't run the ball and the QB is under constant pressure. Something needs to be done sooner than later about the line. Keep messing around trotting either the same players or the line coach out there for the rest of this season and eventually that shiny new QB the GM worked so hard to acquire is going to get broken. You're also wasting the talent of 2 very good RBs in what may be their twilight years of football. Wasting what they could provide behind bad lineman or a bad line coach. Can this be traced to Castillo? This incompetent play is either his failure as a coach or these guys are really just bad players who don't belong as starters on an NFL roster. Personally I think it's more about the way they are being coached...

Not only are the players bad but Mcdermet buddy is the OLINE coach that has been bad since his philly days . We get rid of one of the best ao-line coaches in the league for this garbage.  

7 hours ago, wppete said:

Apart from Dion Dawkins who is a stud the rest of the oline unfortunately should be cut or traded. OL is awful. 

Dion Dawkins is no where near a stud he would have been a good right tackle to go with the good left tackle we already had. 

9 hours ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Bills scouts must have determined that with some new coaching these guys could be good or they were only expected to be depth players.

 

Personally I don't think the line is as bad as it may seem.  When a defense doesn't respect your passing game, they can throw the kitchen sink at stopping the run and rushing the passer and that may be a contributing factor here.  The packers brought pressure and the Bills didn't make them pay.  Somehow it didn't seem to be in the game plan to run the ball much as the Bills passed the ball a good majority of the time even before the game was out of reach.  You have to run the ball unless your passing game is superior.  The Bills' passing game is anything but superior and when you can't run effectively everything gets harder offensively.   

Mcdermett scouts have been wrong on a consistent basis 

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Whhile undoubtedly the talent level on the O-Line isn't especially good, the coaching has to go a long way towards the current debacle. Kromer was a terrific O-Line coach, who had Miller playing well as a rookie. There's some hard evidence right there.

 

Schematically, you have to question if they are employing the right schemes for the personnel. If they aren't understanding their protections, then it may be necessary to go back to the traditional 'hat on a hat', and leave someone else in (RB or TE) to pick up a blitzer.

 

While either McCoy or Ivory are ok at blocking, the evidence given so far by our TEs, is that they aren't. Clay generally, isn't a bad blocker, but he seems to be increasingly banged up, and less able to block because of it. Lee was hopeless at least on two occasions Sunday, one of which resulted in a holding penalty, where he felt obliged to tackle the guy from behind.

 

Tbh, I'd look to re-sign O'Leary, as he can block and catch, even if he isn't the most athletic guy. What he is, is a football player. This probably won't happen, as it would look lilke a mistake was made in the first place, by letting him go. On the evidence so far, it was a mistake. Even if they don't go after O'Leary, I'd like them to find a vet who can actually block, even if he can't catch, as Allen's health could depend upon it. ;)

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