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John from Riverside

Beane took a lot of heat for his offseason pick ups

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15 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

FA isn't how you build a team. The draft is.

Also, it's kind of tough to be a buyer in FA with the dead cap. If you were truly a fair judge, you'd see how they do in FA next year before proclaiming the man a terrible GM.

 

I'm not sure what the OP you're responding to means by FA, but you can't fill a roster with the draft, either.  Past the 4th round or so, everyone has low odds.

To me, you have to fill out the roster with FA - not the big name high price FA, but the 2nd and 3rd tier FA guys you bring in to fill gaps and the UDFA you sign to backstop yourself from failure of the late round draft picks.

 

Beane seems to have a tendency to go for rifle shots - the "high ceiling/low floor" guys like Edmunds and Allen.  To build the franchise, you need a couple key guys who are superstars and unless you're drafting at the top of the draft, that's what a GM has to do.  Bully for Beane.  Whaley never would.

 

But when you're filling your roster out, you need guys who can play and maybe you hope they can play more or better than they've shown so far.  And Beane has a distressing tendency to go for the same "high ceiling/low floor" guys there (Vontae, Corey Coleman) - which is great if you hit.  So far his track record is mixed at best.  IMHO it looks like their pro personnel scouting has massive gaps and is superficial, or how would they not know who AJM was ("he's not who we thought he was") or what Corey Coleman's attitude and learning curve would be?

 

Beane does not get a "pass" for the dead cap, because he created it.  Coleman, $2.9M dead cap fluttering off in less than a month, like baby birdies fluttering out of the nest onto the porch floor to be gobbled up by the neighbor's cats.

 

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Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure what the OP you're responding to means by FA, but you can't fill a roster with the draft, either.  Past the 4th round or so, everyone has low odds.

To me, you have to fill out the roster with FA - not the big name high price FA, but the 2nd and 3rd tier FA guys you bring in to fill gaps and the UDFA you sign to backstop yourself from failure of the late round draft picks.

 

Beane seems to have a tendency to go for rifle shots - the "high ceiling/low floor" guys like Edmunds and Allen.  To build the franchise, you need a couple key guys who are superstars and unless you're drafting at the top of the draft, that's what a GM has to do.  Bully for Beane.  Whaley never would.

 

But when you're filling your roster out, you need guys who can play and maybe you hope they can play more or better than they've shown so far.  And Beane has a distressing tendency to go for the same "high ceiling/low floor" guys there (Vontae, Corey Coleman) - which is great if you hit.  So far his track record is mixed at best.

 

Beane does not get a "pass" for the dead cap, because he created it.

 

 

I actually AGREE with most of this. On your first two points, you're dead on. The second two, let's start with the last point. Yes, he created the dead cap...by design. And that dead cap impacts his choices in FA this year. My thinking is that's a this-year-only kind of thing. I can't judge his pro-personnel decisions this year with any kind of accuracy given the nature of the plan. However, I CAN judge by what he does next year in FA. And if I'm honest, I'm more than willing to give him a pass on just about ANY FA acquisitions so long as he continues his draft strategy.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

I actually AGREE with most of this. On your first two points, you're dead on. The second two, let's start with the last point. Yes, he created the dead cap...by design. And that dead cap impacts his choices in FA this year. My thinking is that's a this-year-only kind of thing. I can't judge his pro-personnel decisions this year with any kind of accuracy given the nature of the plan. However, I CAN judge by what he does next year in FA. And if I'm honest, I'm more than willing to give him a pass on just about ANY FA acquisitions so long as he continues his draft strategy.

 

You may be willing, but if he doesn't clean up the pro-player scouting, the roster will continue to have distressing gaps.

 

Your point about judging him on next year's FA comes back to the point in my first post up-thread: I think both those "hot takes" (massive upgrade and terrible) are premature.  We need to give this draft class a year and see what next year's draft and FA look like.  I'll feel better about what they look like if there are some changes in pro-personnel scouting off-season, because IMO, you can't build a successful roster on draft and top tier FA signings alone.  There has to be depth, and a few pleasant surprises.

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1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You may be willing, but if he doesn't clean up the pro-player scouting, the roster will continue to have distressing gaps.

 

It comes back to the point in my first post up-thread: I think both those "hot takes" (massive upgrade and terrible) are premature.  We need to give this draft class a year and see what next year's draft and FA look like.  I'll feel better about what they look like if there are some changes in pro-personnel scouting off-season.

 

And that's completely reasonable. My perception is often shaded positive toward Beane because he's doing what I BEGGED the Bills to do for the better part of 15 years.

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7 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Right.

 

So tell me again how the LAME DUCK gm was responsible for those picks, not McDermott.

 

Meanwhile, Whaley's gems in the first round...Watkins (who cost WAY too much), Shaq Lawson (pure trash at the DE position), Manuel (BWAHAHAHA) and Gilmore (massively overrated).

 

So again, tell me where the bias is in THAT factual accounting.

 

Again a coach and GM work together. If the GM has a list of players it's usually players that fit a scheme. The HC is 50% the GM 50%. I don't doubt McDermott was in also in control of the 2017 draft. Unlike you I believe the GM makes the board, scouts the players and shares his finding with the HC. Again your bias overshadows any objectivity you would have on any subject.

 

Also my major complaint is with the bad trades and FA signings. Whaley traded for Shady. Beane traded for KB. Whaley signed Alexander, Poyer, Hyde, with a tight cap. Beane signed Marshall Newhouse. I understand it should be built through the draft for 90% of your roster but that doesn't mean you don't need diamonds to come in as free agents. Not big signing, but guys who show up and overperform. If we're talking building a super bowl team we have to be a hell of a lot better at player signings and trades then Beane has shown in a year and a half.

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1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

And that's completely reasonable. My perception is often shaded positive toward Beane because he's doing what I BEGGED the Bills to do for the better part of 15 years.

 

And I totally get that.  It's how I came out of this year's draft, happy that whether they hit or missed, AT LEAST BEANE MADE THE MOVES AND TOOK HIS SHOT instead of whining about how we were "stuck in QB purgatory" as Whaley did.

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1 minute ago, CuddyDark said:

Also my major complaint is with the bad trades and FA signings. Whaley traded for Shady. Beane traded for KB. Whaley signed Alexander, Poyer, Hyde, with a tight cap. Beane signed Marshall Newhouse. I understand it should be built through the draft for 90% of your roster but that doesn't mean you don't need diamonds to come in as free agents. Not big signing, but guys who show up and overperform. If we're talking building a super bowl team we have to be a hell of a lot better at player signings and trades then Beane has shown in a year and a half.


Whaley did well in free agency (though he had some horrible misses like Clay...way too expensive for that guy). But again, when it came to foundational building of a team through the draft, he failed badly. Also, he was horrible at cap management.

 

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2 minutes ago, joesixpack said:


Whaley did well in free agency (though he had some horrible misses like Clay...way too expensive for that guy). But again, when it came to foundational building of a team through the draft, he failed badly. Also, he was horrible at cap management.

 

50+ catches with Tyrod is not a miss. He's too expensive but he's not a "miss." Again, I hope they replace him with a rookie, like Fant in round two but saying he was a miss is just bias.

 

Here's where we agree though. I believe they have to draft well to build a super bowl team.

 

Were we disagree is I don't trust Beane to sign or trade for any player worthy of what we've seen in Alexander or Hyde or Poyer. If he gets bogged down with big shots in the dark next year we could turn into the Redskins of the past. The easiest way to destroy roster building is to sign big contract players who are going through the motion.

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Whaley was good at identifying talent and GREAT at paying way too !@#$ing much for it. There are a bunch of Whaley's picks still playing in the NFL. But he wasn't a team builder, he was a scout. He didn't have a plan, he kind of just threw **** at a wall every year and hoped it stuck. That's why he failed.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Luka said:

Whaley was good at identifying talent and GREAT at paying way too !@#$ing much for it. There are a bunch of Whaley's picks still playing in the NFL. But he wasn't a team builder, he was a scout. He didn't have a plan, he kind of just threw **** at a wall every year and hoped it stuck. That's why he failed.

 

 


This.

 

And a lot of that overpayment is because he failed miserably in the draft.

 

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11 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

I still hate Newhouse and want him gone even more than DuCasse.. 

Newhouse has always been a low effort penalty machine. I’d rather have Benjamin line up at tackle than that guy. 

I was not very worried about the other signings compared to how many were on here going nuts we paid some of these guys to come here. I will stand by my Newhouse assessment though and pray they replace him ASAP. 

I was yelling that at the TV yesterday, guy has 5 offensive snaps and 4 penalties.   Worthless. 

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Just now, joesixpack said:


This.

 

And a lot of that overpayment is because he failed miserably in the draft.

 

 

Well even in the draft he was "overpaying." 4th round QB prospect drafted 18th overall. Trading away future picks for a wide receiver in an absolutely loaded class. I feel like his big board and free agent list consisted of a total of about 10 names and he pursued those 10 names at all costs.

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Two things:

 

1. I don't really think you can separate the two (McDermott and Beane). Yes, they have different roles, but they go hand-in-hand and make decisions together. McDermott is in on all of the personnel decisions. It may be Beane's group that identifies players, but I doubt many guys get brought in that McDermott hasn't agreed with. It is their relationship and how it came about (McD getting the job first and then bringing Beane in). McD has a lot of control in this organization. It's not like some other franchises where the GM makes all personnel decisions and the coach just has to coach them up. These two are a team and seems to me should be evaluated as such.

 

2. You can not discount how strapped we were for cash this year when looking at this year's crop of free agents. Did we bring in the best FAs out there? Obviously not. But only because we couldn't afford better (outside of Star). They had to identify players that fit the right price point. So, kind of hard to judge them solely on this year's FAs. Let's see what they do with another draft and next year's free agency when they have some cash to spend.

 

I do agree that the lack of depth in some areas is a bit troubling, but again, I think they knew that might be the case this year according to the plan they laid out (eating all of the dead cap this year).

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You forgot some...

 

Vontae Davis

Cory Coleman

Jeremy Kerley

Anquan Boldin

 

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1 minute ago, cd1 said:

You forgot some...

 

Vontae Davis

Cory Coleman

Jeremy Kerley

Anquan Boldin

 

 

Good catches there.  I forgot Kerley and Boldin.

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4 hours ago, H2o said:

So........ We don't want to fire Beane this week? 

 

No those who were calling for it were (and are) full of Beanes.

3 hours ago, H2o said:

Allen looked better yesterday and so did Edmunds outside of a couple bad angles when attacking the LOS. Yes, the "fire everyone" talk was as stupid as you can get. It's amazing how Billspolar some people are. 

 

Not amazed. Some of these people are probably those who jumping into flaming tables head first.

 

Think QB's play will become new move for them hurdling flaming tables?

 

2 hours ago, H2o said:

They figured it out in Carolina before we did, but what options did we really have? #DeadCapLife

 

McD was in Carolina  - why did he not figure it out as DC defending him in practice?

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Doesn't have to do with his FA pickups but McDermott putting Alexander on the DLine in passing situations has immensely helped the pass rush. 

 

Lorenzo has been a beast at this. Awesome to see.

 

Lorenzo is great but he has a short shelf life.  He cannot keep this up all season.

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Obviously no GM hits it out of the park on every draft pick or free agent signing but at this point I'm pretty confident that McBeane has this team on the right track.

 

It's been mentioned before but yes, Doug Whaley was/is a solid scout but his team-building philosophy wasn't great. He figured if he drafted players from consistently winning college programs then that winning tradition would somehow come with those players and translate into the locker room. It didn't. During Whaley's tenure, he was also saddled with two coaches that, I'm pretty sure, he didn't care for and didn't want to work with from the jump. Still, he did his best to provide them the types of players they wanted for their schemes. IMO, Whaley is probably better off in a Director of Player Personnel position and being a guy who helps in the decision-making process but doesn't have the final say.

 

During the last few years of the drought, one of the things that seemed to stand out to former Bills players and people that were around those players (like wives) during those runs in the 90's was that they always said the team wasn't playing for each other. Whether it was Marrone or Ryan, the sideline never looked hyped up, whenever they were down by a couple of scores it looked like those guys just wanted to finish the game and bail. 

 

I know McDermott and Beane take some heat for trying to fill the team with "boy scouts" but I can fully understand what they're trying to do... and it seems to be working. Look at last season, they compile a team that isn't the most talented but made up for that with heart and effort. The Taiwan Jones play vs. the Bucs last season says a lot to me. Whole sidelined erupted after a career backup/special teams guy made a nice play to pick up a first down on 3rd and long. They're building a team that truly plays for each other and trusts the vision and message coming from their leader.

 

They want players who have the team-first mindset and aren't really concerned with personal achievements as much as just winning. And the cleansing of the roster has a lot to do with that. It makes sense to see Beane purge the roster of a lot of Whaley's picks and some other players he brought in because, unfortunately, a lot of those guys simply got used to losing. Or they became OK with being mediocre, middle-of-the-road every year and never really getting over the hump.

 

They needed a completely fresh perspective in the locker room. Any veterans or hold-overs from Whaley's time (or even Nix's time or earlier) that had the right mindset, stuck around and were model leaders, guys like Kyle, Wood, Alexander, etc. Anyone that couldn't get on board with what they had in mind is playing somewhere else, despite their talent. Would I love to have a Sammy Watkins out there for Josh Allen? Definitely. But his attitude and mindset had become toxic here. He's openly admitted that he'd walk off the field after a win and be upset that he only had a handful of catches. It's great that he wanted to make more of an impact but he wanted to make that impact moreso to make himself look good. And I'll throw some blame on Marrone and Rex for never properly utilizing the guys skill set (aside from the second half of the 2015 season). You make your GM look like a colossal ass-hat if you use the 4th overall pick (that the team had to trade up for) as a friggin' decoy to free up other players. You don't do that with a player like him. You make him a focal point of your offense and they never really did that, again, except for the last 8 games in 2015. 

 

So, when evaluating which kinds of players they wanna bring in here, character plays a large role. And that's fine. I used to think they might pass up on a highly talented player because of their character concerns but I'm not so sure they would. If they build a strong locker room with solid  leaders, then they should have confidence in those leaders to help a young, talented player with a few character concerns get his head on straight and reach his potential. 

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8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

You forgot to add Vontae to your list John.....

 

My questions with Trent Murphy were always health. I liked him coming out and he has made plays in the league when healthy. He was 100% not ready to go week 1 he was basically limping out there. He looked healthy for the first time yesterday and the results were encouraging.

 

On Star, yesterday showed us nothing - the Vikings were made one dimensional early. The test for him comes against teams who want to run it and run it straight at us. I still think we vastly overpaid for an average talent.

 

Bodine looked like an upgrade on Groy - not massively in a physical sense - but in the sense that I think they made the right protection adjustments yesterday. The free blitzers running at the Quarterback simply didn't happen this week.

Yes i did forget Vontae how could I possibly miss him.....just horrible

 

I thought Murphy was giving us something in the 2nd half of the last loss as well

 

 

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2 hours ago, cd1 said:

You forgot some...

 

Vontae Davis

Cory Coleman

Jeremy Kerley

Anquan Boldin

 

AJM

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3 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Right.

 

So tell me again how the LAME DUCK gm was responsible for those picks, not McDermott.

 

Meanwhile, Whaley's gems in the first round...Watkins (who cost WAY too much), Shaq Lawson (pure trash at the DE position), Manuel (BWAHAHAHA) and Gilmore (massively overrated).

 

So again, tell me where the bias is in THAT factual accounting.

 

 

Whaley only actually picked 2 players in the first round - Sammy Watkins and Shaq Lawson. His record of draft picks is not as bad as sometimes argued. He had some misses - sure - and didn't find a true elite player but in his 3 drafts as Bills GM (2014, 15 and 16) Doug Whaley drafted 20 players. 7 of those 20 started in the NFL in week 1 of 2018. That is far from a disaster. If you want to pin 2013 on him so that he takes full blame for EJ (I do believe he was fully on board with that pick) then his ratio is 11/28 players drafted who started week 1 of 2018. That is a pretty decent strike rate actually. 

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