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John from Riverside

Beane took a lot of heat for his offseason pick ups

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11 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

I still hate Newhouse and want him gone even more than DuCasse.. 

Newhouse has always been a low effort penalty machine. I’d rather have Benjamin line up at tackle than that guy. 

I was not very worried about the other signings compared to how many were on here going nuts we paid some of these guys to come here. I will stand by my Newhouse assessment though and pray they replace him ASAP. 

I was yelling that at the TV yesterday, guy has 5 offensive snaps and 4 penalties.   Worthless. 

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Just now, joesixpack said:


This.

 

And a lot of that overpayment is because he failed miserably in the draft.

 

 

Well even in the draft he was "overpaying." 4th round QB prospect drafted 18th overall. Trading away future picks for a wide receiver in an absolutely loaded class. I feel like his big board and free agent list consisted of a total of about 10 names and he pursued those 10 names at all costs.

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Two things:

 

1. I don't really think you can separate the two (McDermott and Beane). Yes, they have different roles, but they go hand-in-hand and make decisions together. McDermott is in on all of the personnel decisions. It may be Beane's group that identifies players, but I doubt many guys get brought in that McDermott hasn't agreed with. It is their relationship and how it came about (McD getting the job first and then bringing Beane in). McD has a lot of control in this organization. It's not like some other franchises where the GM makes all personnel decisions and the coach just has to coach them up. These two are a team and seems to me should be evaluated as such.

 

2. You can not discount how strapped we were for cash this year when looking at this year's crop of free agents. Did we bring in the best FAs out there? Obviously not. But only because we couldn't afford better (outside of Star). They had to identify players that fit the right price point. So, kind of hard to judge them solely on this year's FAs. Let's see what they do with another draft and next year's free agency when they have some cash to spend.

 

I do agree that the lack of depth in some areas is a bit troubling, but again, I think they knew that might be the case this year according to the plan they laid out (eating all of the dead cap this year).

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You forgot some...

 

Vontae Davis

Cory Coleman

Jeremy Kerley

Anquan Boldin

 

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1 minute ago, cd1 said:

You forgot some...

 

Vontae Davis

Cory Coleman

Jeremy Kerley

Anquan Boldin

 

 

Good catches there.  I forgot Kerley and Boldin.

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4 hours ago, H2o said:

So........ We don't want to fire Beane this week? 

 

No those who were calling for it were (and are) full of Beanes.

3 hours ago, H2o said:

Allen looked better yesterday and so did Edmunds outside of a couple bad angles when attacking the LOS. Yes, the "fire everyone" talk was as stupid as you can get. It's amazing how Billspolar some people are. 

 

Not amazed. Some of these people are probably those who jumping into flaming tables head first.

 

Think QB's play will become new move for them hurdling flaming tables?

 

2 hours ago, H2o said:

They figured it out in Carolina before we did, but what options did we really have? #DeadCapLife

 

McD was in Carolina  - why did he not figure it out as DC defending him in practice?

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Doesn't have to do with his FA pickups but McDermott putting Alexander on the DLine in passing situations has immensely helped the pass rush. 

 

Lorenzo has been a beast at this. Awesome to see.

 

Lorenzo is great but he has a short shelf life.  He cannot keep this up all season.

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Obviously no GM hits it out of the park on every draft pick or free agent signing but at this point I'm pretty confident that McBeane has this team on the right track.

 

It's been mentioned before but yes, Doug Whaley was/is a solid scout but his team-building philosophy wasn't great. He figured if he drafted players from consistently winning college programs then that winning tradition would somehow come with those players and translate into the locker room. It didn't. During Whaley's tenure, he was also saddled with two coaches that, I'm pretty sure, he didn't care for and didn't want to work with from the jump. Still, he did his best to provide them the types of players they wanted for their schemes. IMO, Whaley is probably better off in a Director of Player Personnel position and being a guy who helps in the decision-making process but doesn't have the final say.

 

During the last few years of the drought, one of the things that seemed to stand out to former Bills players and people that were around those players (like wives) during those runs in the 90's was that they always said the team wasn't playing for each other. Whether it was Marrone or Ryan, the sideline never looked hyped up, whenever they were down by a couple of scores it looked like those guys just wanted to finish the game and bail. 

 

I know McDermott and Beane take some heat for trying to fill the team with "boy scouts" but I can fully understand what they're trying to do... and it seems to be working. Look at last season, they compile a team that isn't the most talented but made up for that with heart and effort. The Taiwan Jones play vs. the Bucs last season says a lot to me. Whole sidelined erupted after a career backup/special teams guy made a nice play to pick up a first down on 3rd and long. They're building a team that truly plays for each other and trusts the vision and message coming from their leader.

 

They want players who have the team-first mindset and aren't really concerned with personal achievements as much as just winning. And the cleansing of the roster has a lot to do with that. It makes sense to see Beane purge the roster of a lot of Whaley's picks and some other players he brought in because, unfortunately, a lot of those guys simply got used to losing. Or they became OK with being mediocre, middle-of-the-road every year and never really getting over the hump.

 

They needed a completely fresh perspective in the locker room. Any veterans or hold-overs from Whaley's time (or even Nix's time or earlier) that had the right mindset, stuck around and were model leaders, guys like Kyle, Wood, Alexander, etc. Anyone that couldn't get on board with what they had in mind is playing somewhere else, despite their talent. Would I love to have a Sammy Watkins out there for Josh Allen? Definitely. But his attitude and mindset had become toxic here. He's openly admitted that he'd walk off the field after a win and be upset that he only had a handful of catches. It's great that he wanted to make more of an impact but he wanted to make that impact moreso to make himself look good. And I'll throw some blame on Marrone and Rex for never properly utilizing the guys skill set (aside from the second half of the 2015 season). You make your GM look like a colossal ass-hat if you use the 4th overall pick (that the team had to trade up for) as a friggin' decoy to free up other players. You don't do that with a player like him. You make him a focal point of your offense and they never really did that, again, except for the last 8 games in 2015. 

 

So, when evaluating which kinds of players they wanna bring in here, character plays a large role. And that's fine. I used to think they might pass up on a highly talented player because of their character concerns but I'm not so sure they would. If they build a strong locker room with solid  leaders, then they should have confidence in those leaders to help a young, talented player with a few character concerns get his head on straight and reach his potential. 

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8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

You forgot to add Vontae to your list John.....

 

My questions with Trent Murphy were always health. I liked him coming out and he has made plays in the league when healthy. He was 100% not ready to go week 1 he was basically limping out there. He looked healthy for the first time yesterday and the results were encouraging.

 

On Star, yesterday showed us nothing - the Vikings were made one dimensional early. The test for him comes against teams who want to run it and run it straight at us. I still think we vastly overpaid for an average talent.

 

Bodine looked like an upgrade on Groy - not massively in a physical sense - but in the sense that I think they made the right protection adjustments yesterday. The free blitzers running at the Quarterback simply didn't happen this week.

Yes i did forget Vontae how could I possibly miss him.....just horrible

 

I thought Murphy was giving us something in the 2nd half of the last loss as well

 

 

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2 hours ago, cd1 said:

You forgot some...

 

Vontae Davis

Cory Coleman

Jeremy Kerley

Anquan Boldin

 

AJM

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3 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Right.

 

So tell me again how the LAME DUCK gm was responsible for those picks, not McDermott.

 

Meanwhile, Whaley's gems in the first round...Watkins (who cost WAY too much), Shaq Lawson (pure trash at the DE position), Manuel (BWAHAHAHA) and Gilmore (massively overrated).

 

So again, tell me where the bias is in THAT factual accounting.

 

 

Whaley only actually picked 2 players in the first round - Sammy Watkins and Shaq Lawson. His record of draft picks is not as bad as sometimes argued. He had some misses - sure - and didn't find a true elite player but in his 3 drafts as Bills GM (2014, 15 and 16) Doug Whaley drafted 20 players. 7 of those 20 started in the NFL in week 1 of 2018. That is far from a disaster. If you want to pin 2013 on him so that he takes full blame for EJ (I do believe he was fully on board with that pick) then his ratio is 11/28 players drafted who started week 1 of 2018. That is a pretty decent strike rate actually. 

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Ivory - He is a serviceable player. But in today's NFL RB's are a dime a dozen. So I would suggest we are overpaying for a the type of production we get out of him. Though dont hate what he brings to the table. But look around the league - Breida, AP, Lindsay, Mixon, J Howard, and on and on. Half or more of the top 10 rushers are randoms making $1M or less. 

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4 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Ivory - He is a serviceable player. But in today's NFL RB's are a dime a dozen. So I would suggest we are overpaying for a the type of production we get out of him. Though dont hate what he brings to the table. But look around the league - Breida, AP, Lindsay, Mixon, J Howard, and on and on. Half or more of the top 10 rushers are randoms making $1M or less. 

I dont think those guys are quite the battering ram that Ivory is.

 

Its not just that he is a backup RB...it is the TYPE of backup he is.....I take Ivory over ALL of those guys to do what he is brought here to do.....punish defenses, take hits, pick up short yardage, red zone offense.

 

He catches the ball pretty well to.

 

 

 

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And what would we have said 2 days ago?  Lets wait for the season to play out more before we conlude all these guys are great signings.

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2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whaley only actually picked 2 players in the first round - Sammy Watkins and Shaq Lawson. His record of draft picks is not as bad as sometimes argued. He had some misses - sure - and didn't find a true elite player but in his 3 drafts as Bills GM (2014, 15 and 16) Doug Whaley drafted 20 players. 7 of those 20 started in the NFL in week 1 of 2018. That is far from a disaster. If you want to pin 2013 on him so that he takes full blame for EJ (I do believe he was fully on board with that pick) then his ratio is 11/28 players drafted who started week 1 of 2018. That is a pretty decent strike rate actually. 

 

If we are pretending to "judge" Beane's moves as GM should we also not be giving him credit for making the moves necessary to draft Allen in the first place? He got a valuable 3rd rd pick for Tyrod (saving valuable cap space as well) and then traded with Cinci unloading an overpaid player (Glenn) who was no longer starting, to acquire their #1 draft pick which was later used on draft day, as well as making the trade with Tampa to move up to select Allen. If we are looking at Beane's moves should we not be taking these into consideration as well? If Edmunds pans out as I believe that he will, how bout giving Beane credit for that move as well.

 

As far as Whaley is concerned, lets also remember that he was most likely a major factor in why Marrone wanted out. Wasn't it said that when the trade to acquire Watkins was announced that he was rumored to have angrily left the building in a huff over the move? Didn't Marrone basically force Whaley to go out and bring in Orton because Marrone wanted no part of EJ as his Qb at that point? It seems to me that most of us fans had already concluded that EJ was a bust and yet Whaley went out and drafted a WR so highly when he could have simply stayed put in the draft and selected another highly regarded WR?

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15 minutes ago, DefenseWins said:

 

As far as Whaley is concerned, lets also remember that he was most likely a major factor in why Marrone wanted out. Wasn't it said that when the trade to acquire Watkins was announced that he was rumored to have angrily left the building in a huff over the move? Didn't Marrone basically force Whaley to go out and bring in Orton because Marrone wanted no part of EJ as his Qb at that point? It seems to me that most of us fans had already concluded that EJ was a bust and yet Whaley went out and drafted a WR so highly when he could have simply stayed put in the draft and selected another highly regarded WR?

 

First of all I wasn't pretending to judge Beane. I was doing exactly the opposite and saying he is an incomplete. The key is the next 12 months.

 

As for Whaley one of his major failings as the GM was he fell out with 3 Head Coaches in a row. Working with people is part of the job and he was bad at it. My point was purely to respond to the "he sucks in the draft." It is hard to discuss Whaley objectively here. The mention of his name brings ire. He wasn't good enough and it was the right time to move on.... but he was kinda average here, not terrible, when you properly assess his moves. 

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17 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Maybe we should revisit that......

 

P Corey Bojorquez - Some good some bad today.....has quite the leg

 

CB Ryan Lewis - thought he played very well considering he is brand new

 

C Russell Bodine - Hated upon greatly.....and not a star....but has stuck on the Bengals for years....not as bad as made out to be

 

T Marshall Newhouse - Low end free agent signing

 

RB Chris Ivory - Has been exactly as advertised and a good signing

 

DT - Star L. - Not putting up the stats.....but sure does take on the double teams allowing others to do their thing....really helped Milano today

 

DE - Trent Murphy - getting better by the game.....starting to get pressure and make plays

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....but with limited cap space (set aside whose fault or decision, yet it was a necessary purge IMO), you're going to have to roll the dice on some players......I did say Davis and Murphy were surprising coming off injury/PED, but someone here rightfully said you "have to take a flier based on what you have to spend"....mea culpa is no problem about Murphy.....at the same time and other than Star, are there any long term/big bucks deals?.....don't believe so.....so heading into 2019 with 10 picks and $75 mil to spend, position is MUCH better IMO.....

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12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

First of all I wasn't pretending to judge Beane. I was doing exactly the opposite and saying he is an incomplete. The key is the next 12 months.

 

As for Whaley one of his major failings as the GM was he fell out with 3 Head Coaches in a row. Working with people is part of the job and he was bad at it. My point was purely to respond to the "he sucks in the draft." It is hard to discuss Whaley objectively here. The mention of his name brings ire. He wasn't good enough and it was the right time to move on.... but he was kinda average here, not terrible, when you properly assess his moves. 

 

I'm glad we agree that Beane cannot realistically be judged at this point based on the short time he has actually been here making moves and that 2019 will be crucial in how Beane will be judged moving forward. The fact that he was able to move up and acquire Allen and still retain all our picks for 2019 is quite frankly a remarkable achievement IMO. I also remember that on draft night many of us fans, myself included, were somewhat surprised when Beane chose Allen over Rosen. However, based on what we are currently seeing out of Allen I can well understand now why Beane made that move. The story we were being told was that Allen had accuracy problems. Apparently, Beane did his "due diligence" and came to the conclusion that Allen was indeed the real deal and deserves alot of credit for that judgement. I still think that this was a rare draft for QB's similar to the famous 83 draft and that the top 4 QB's look to have solid careers ahead of them. But at this point I have to give Beane ton's of credit for his moves so far and can only look forward to what this team will acheive in the years to come.

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...McBeane just concluded his FIRST draft at OBD and his second off-season despite thee first one starting late after his May 2017 hire.......not sure what the hell the "reasonable (NOT HERE)" expectation would be......cap cleanup and dead wood jettison was the first order of business.......and do not see a McBeane/McD power struggle...if I'm the HC and in charge of "between the white stripes", I want some input as far as personnel....off season signings were dictated on dollars to spend and certainly would necessitate some gambles.....some seemed to work an others did not...NEVER happened before, right?....

 

...STILL think the premise was via the draft and FA signings to yield as competitive team as possible under the constrictions...so I'd say 2019 with McBeane/McD being equally grounded, 10 picks and somewhere between $65-$80 mil to spend, will be the FIRST true test of them together for regime judgment.......

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Ivory looks like he has something left. He has great hands out of the backfield and I think he one cut and straight up field is good with this line. 

Murphy actually made himself known yesterday. 

Star is doing his job.

Newhouse has been irrelevant.

Bodine looked better than Groy yesterday.

Bojo is a heck of a punter.

 

as others said I think Beane is playing it smart. 

They will have a ton of money to spend next year and all the picks.

i bet Beane will do some wheeling and dealing to make this team better. One thing they have shown is they will make movers when they think it is necessary. 

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19 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Maybe we should revisit that......

 

P Corey Bojorquez - Some good some bad today.....has quite the leg

 

CB Ryan Lewis - thought he played very well considering he is brand new

 

C Russell Bodine - Hated upon greatly.....and not a star....but has stuck on the Bengals for years....not as bad as made out to be

 

T Marshall Newhouse - Low end free agent signing

 

RB Chris Ivory - Has been exactly as advertised and a good signing

 

DT - Star L. - Not putting up the stats.....but sure does take on the double teams allowing others to do their thing....really helped Milano today

 

DE - Trent Murphy - getting better by the game.....starting to get pressure and make plays

 

 

 

 

 

It was 1 game, so no, it's not "time to revisit" anything just yet.  

 

Bojoquez and Lewis were very late pick ups from other team's waiver cuts/practice squads (both from NE I think), and they were never particularly lumped in with the rest of the FAs the Bills brought in during the off season.   They may turn out to be the best of the Bills off-season FA signings.

 

I don't think the criticism of the Ivory signing was so much about his on-field play as about his age and contract; most critics thought that the Bills should have gone with a younger RB.  I think Ivory is an okay sub for McCoy, and he and M Murphy did a nice job replacing Shady against the Vikings.  Does that last?  Who knows?

 

With Star and T Murphy, the problem I have with them is that they are very expensive for what the team gets:  Star has not played well for a couple of years, and T Murphy has been injured and then suspended for PEDs for over a year IIRC, and their play has been "okay" at best.  So, they're a couple of JAGs getting paid like they're top notch players at their positions.

 

Finally, Phillip Gaines has been a liability at CB opposite White, so maybe it's just as well that he's injured and Lewis replaced him.

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20 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Maybe we should revisit that......

 

P Corey Bojorquez - Some good some bad today.....has quite the leg

 

CB Ryan Lewis - thought he played very well considering he is brand new

 

C Russell Bodine - Hated upon greatly.....and not a star....but has stuck on the Bengals for years....not as bad as made out to be

 

T Marshall Newhouse - Low end free agent signing

 

RB Chris Ivory - Has been exactly as advertised and a good signing

 

DT - Star L. - Not putting up the stats.....but sure does take on the double teams allowing others to do their thing....really helped Milano today

 

DE - Trent Murphy - getting better by the game.....starting to get pressure and make plays

 

It appears I may have been wrong about the Trent Murphy signing.  Hated it.  Remains to be seen if he will stay healthy down the stretch, but he sure looked good against Minni.  

 

A dish of roasted crow I’d gladly eat with a nice bottle of Merlot.

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27 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

It was 1 game, so no, it's not "time to revisit" anything just yet.  

 

Bojoquez and Lewis were very late pick ups from other team's waiver cuts/practice squads (both from NE I think), and they were never particularly lumped in with the rest of the FAs the Bills brought in during the off season.   They may turn out to be the best of the Bills off-season FA signings.

 

I don't think the criticism of the Ivory signing was so much about his on-field play as about his age and contract; most critics thought that the Bills should have gone with a younger RB.  I think Ivory is an okay sub for McCoy, and he and M Murphy did a nice job replacing Shady against the Vikings.  Does that last?  Who knows?

 

With Star and T Murphy, the problem I have with them is that they are very expensive for what the team gets:  Star has not played well for a couple of years, and T Murphy has been injured and then suspended for PEDs for over a year IIRC, and their play has been "okay" at best.  So, they're a couple of JAGs getting paid like they're top notch players at their positions.

 

Finally, Phillip Gaines has been a liability at CB opposite White, so maybe it's just as well that he's injured and Lewis replaced him.

You didnt have any problem piling on after the first two soooooo

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16 hours ago, davefan66 said:

Thought the lot of them played pretty well yesterday.  Especially thought Ivory played well, wasn’t expecting that.  Expected Marcus Murphy to look better than he did when he ran the ball. 

 

Need to keep it up, one game does not make a season.

Felt like TBD won the the SB. Let's focus on 2-2

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