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John from Riverside

Beane took a lot of heat for his offseason pick ups

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3 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

:lol:

 

Sure, tell yourself that. But don't be acting like you were on board the whole time when this thing inevitably all works. Mkay?

 

 

I think saying McDermott is "better" than Beane is probably a stretch at this point but saying he has proven himself and Beane hasn't yet is perfectly fair. Doesn't mean someone is "not on board". I am completely on board with McDermott and have been since day 1. I am content with Beane for now on the basis that he and McDermott are totally aligned. His moves have been mixed this far - but if he has hit on Allen the mixed moves elsewhere matter less.

 

That isn't digging heels in on anything that is a reasonable take on where things are as of today. 

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10 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Maybe we should revisit that......

P Corey Bojorquez - Some good some bad today.....has quite the leg

CB Ryan Lewis - thought he played very well considering he is brand new

C Russell Bodine - Hated upon greatly.....and not a star....but has stuck on the Bengals for years....not as bad as made out to be

T Marshall Newhouse - Low end free agent signing

RB Chris Ivory - Has been exactly as advertised and a good signing

DT - Star L. - Not putting up the stats.....but sure does take on the double teams allowing others to do their thing....really helped Milano today

DE - Trent Murphy - getting better by the game.....starting to get pressure and make plays

 

I think it's true that many of us (me!) have left Ivory off the list when listing Beane's failed signings.

And I notice you're leaving Vonte Davis and Corey Coleman off the list.  No fair.

 

So.  Beane gets credit for Ivory.  Good soldier, good add.

 

I sort it now:

Fails:

Newhouse (awful when he plays, may not have the focus to come into the game cold as an extra lineman).  Mills and Dawkins: please take care

Vontae Davis

Corey Coleman

 

Poor:

Russell Bodine.  I think he may have stuck around because maybe he has a head for the game, but he's just as awful at the point of attack as Groy.

 

Jury's still out, but stock rising:

Ryan Lewis

Trent Murphy (starting to look like what we thought we were getting)

Marcus Murphy

Nate Orchard

Corey Bojorquez

 

Good:

Star Lotulelei

Chris Ivory

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think saying McDermott is "better" than Beane is probably a stretch at this point but saying he has proven himself and Beane hasn't yet is perfectly fair. Doesn't mean someone is "not on board". I am completely on board with McDermott and have been since day 1. I am content with Beane for now on the basis that he and McDermott are totally aligned. His moves have been mixed this far - but if he has hit on Allen the mixed moves elsewhere matter less.

 

That isn't digging heels in on anything that is a reasonable take on where things are as of today. 


This I can tolerate. But people like CD who are in the "Brandon Beane is terrible" camp I cannot. Because it's simply incorrect.

 

He's a massive upgrade over Whaley.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it's true that many of us (me!) have left Ivory off the list when listing Beane's failed signings.

And I notice you're leaving Vonte Davis and Corey Coleman off the list.  No fair.

 

So.  Beane gets credit for Ivory.  Good soldier, good add.

 

I sort it now:

Fails:

Newhouse (awful when he plays, may not have the focus to come into the game cold as an extra lineman).  Mills and Dawkins: please take care

Vontae Davis

Corey Coleman

 

Poor:

Russell Bodine.  I think he may have stuck around because maybe he has a head for the game, but he's just as awful at the point of attack as Groy.

 

Jury's still out, but stock rising:

Ryan Lewis

Trent Murphy (starting to look like what we thought we were getting)

Marcus Murphy

Nate Orchard

Corey Bojorquez

 

Good:

Star Lotulelei

Chris Ivory

 

 

Agree, except I still have Star on the jury out list. A team one dimensional so early, throwing it every play, is not the offense to judge Star against. It is teams who wanna run it down our throats where I need to see his impact to move him to the good. 

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9 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

:lol:

 

Sure, tell yourself that. But don't be acting like you were on board the whole time when this thing inevitably all works. Mkay?

 

I've been on board with McDermott from day one. I think he's going to be a top ten coach. He needs to actually have players workout and not be busts, especially in free agency. He needs overachievers to come onboard. He didn't get any by my count this offseason. He got 2 or 3 last offseason. Bills actually got 2 or 3 for the last 2 or 3 years. Only change is Beane has full control of the free agent signings.

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3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Agree, except I still have Star on the jury out list. A team one dimensional so early, throwing it every play, is not the offense to judge Star against. It is teams who wanna run it down our throats where I need to see his impact to move him to the good. 

 

I was more basing on starting to watch all-22 of the D last week.  I think he was "doing his job" more than believed and that the flaws in run D were more on the LB getting faked out and losing gap integrity.  I think the difference the second half last week and this week was more improvement in LB play. 

 

But TBH I don't have the "football eyes" to pick that stuff up off televised video.

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1 minute ago, joesixpack said:


This I can tolerate. But people like CD who are in the "Brandon Beane is terrible" camp I cannot. Because it's simply incorrect.

 

He's a massive upgrade over Whaley.

 

 

I don't think he is a proven massive upgrade on Whaley yet. I think Whaley was average, which is better than most on this board seem to.  Can Beane be an upgrade? Yep. Getting Josh Allen right would already make him one. Finding a Franchise QB is the most important part of the job. 

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1 minute ago, CuddyDark said:

I've been on board with McDermott from day one. I think he's going to be a top ten coach. He needs to actually have players workout and not be busts, especially in free agency. He needs overachievers to come onboard. He didn't get any by my count this offseason. He got 2 or 3 last offseason. Bills actually got 2 or 3 for the last 2 or 3 years. Only change is Beane has full control of the free agent signings.


FA isn't how you build a team. The draft is.

 

Also, it's kind of tough to be a buyer in FA with the dead cap. If you were truly a fair judge, you'd see how they do in FA next year before proclaiming the man a terrible GM.

 

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3 minutes ago, joesixpack said:


This I can tolerate. But people like CD who are in the "Brandon Beane is terrible" camp I cannot. Because it's simply incorrect.

 

He's a massive upgrade over Whaley.

 

The only upgrade is Josh Allen and he's still a rookie. On every other front I would say Whaley is ahead or it's a push.

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Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think he is a proven massive upgrade on Whaley yet. I think Whaley was average, which is better than most on this board seem to.  Can Beane be an upgrade? Yep. Getting Josh Allen right would already make him one. Finding a Franchise QB is the most important part of the job. 

 

I look at his drafting, and find a massive upgrade.

 

Whaley was absolute **** for drafting.

 

Just now, CuddyDark said:

The only upgrade is Josh Allen and he's still a rookie. On every other front I would say Whaley is ahead or it's a push.

 

Absurd take. If you're counting Tre White, Milano and Dawkins on Whaley's tab, that's a joke.

 

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1 minute ago, joesixpack said:


FA isn't how you build a team. The draft is.

 

Also, it's kind of tough to be a buyer in FA with the dead cap. If you were truly a fair judge, you'd see how they do in FA next year before proclaiming the man a terrible GM.

 

Never said he was terrible. I don't think he's added any value to his job. Again if Josh Allen becomes a star, fine. But on every other value we have to have hope when it comes to Beane. It's always, wait til next year from people like you.

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Just now, CuddyDark said:

It's always, wait til next year from people like you.

 

Except it's not.

 

:rolleyes:


See, I have the ability to understand that this was at minimum a three-year process. You, apparently, can not.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

I look at his drafting, and find a massive upgrade.

 

Whaley was absolute **** for drafting.

 

 

Absurd take. If you're counting Tre White, Milano and Dawkins on Whaley's tab, that's a joke.

 

You just make excuses. Everything is just an excuse for you. It's bias and not worthy of discussion.

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

Except it's not.

 

:rolleyes:


See, I have the ability to understand that this was at minimum a three-year process. You, apparently, can not.

 

 

No I thought it was a five year process. I'd give McDermott five years. I probably wouldn't even fire him after five years because he's a leader of men. As I said before McDermott could have a coaching career like Marvin Lewis and I wouldn't fire him. I would however fire Beane in year three.

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5 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

This I can tolerate. But people like CD who are in the "Brandon Beane is terrible" camp I cannot. Because it's simply incorrect.

He's a massive upgrade over Whaley.

 

I think both those "hot takes" (massive upgrade and terrible) are premature.

 

Whaley brought in more talent than most people think, and Brandon Beane so far may have a "blind spot" in one of the places that was a strength of Whaley's crew.

OTOH Whaley had massive failures to "go for the gusto" and bring in the candidate franchise QB and game changer LB we needed. 

 

Right now it looks to me as though Beane's strengths were Whaley's weakness - and vice versa - which makes it hard to say one is better or worse until things settle out.

 

If Allen and Edmunds both prove out (over the course of 2 seasons, not 2 1/2 games), I will fully give you Beane is an upgrade overall - but he has GOT to improve his pro personnel scouting and stop with the "high ceiling, low floor" injured pro-bowl-dude/busting 1st round pick rifle shots.  The guys brought in to fill out the roster have to be closer to sure bets.

 

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Just now, CuddyDark said:

You just make excuses. Everything is just an excuse for you. It's bias and not worthy of discussion.

 

Right.

 

So tell me again how the LAME DUCK gm was responsible for those picks, not McDermott.

 

Meanwhile, Whaley's gems in the first round...Watkins (who cost WAY too much), Shaq Lawson (pure trash at the DE position), Manuel (BWAHAHAHA) and Gilmore (massively overrated).

 

So again, tell me where the bias is in THAT factual accounting.

 

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15 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

FA isn't how you build a team. The draft is.

Also, it's kind of tough to be a buyer in FA with the dead cap. If you were truly a fair judge, you'd see how they do in FA next year before proclaiming the man a terrible GM.

 

I'm not sure what the OP you're responding to means by FA, but you can't fill a roster with the draft, either.  Past the 4th round or so, everyone has low odds.

To me, you have to fill out the roster with FA - not the big name high price FA, but the 2nd and 3rd tier FA guys you bring in to fill gaps and the UDFA you sign to backstop yourself from failure of the late round draft picks.

 

Beane seems to have a tendency to go for rifle shots - the "high ceiling/low floor" guys like Edmunds and Allen.  To build the franchise, you need a couple key guys who are superstars and unless you're drafting at the top of the draft, that's what a GM has to do.  Bully for Beane.  Whaley never would.

 

But when you're filling your roster out, you need guys who can play and maybe you hope they can play more or better than they've shown so far.  And Beane has a distressing tendency to go for the same "high ceiling/low floor" guys there (Vontae, Corey Coleman) - which is great if you hit.  So far his track record is mixed at best.  IMHO it looks like their pro personnel scouting has massive gaps and is superficial, or how would they not know who AJM was ("he's not who we thought he was") or what Corey Coleman's attitude and learning curve would be?

 

Beane does not get a "pass" for the dead cap, because he created it.  Coleman, $2.9M dead cap fluttering off in less than a month, like baby birdies fluttering out of the nest onto the porch floor to be gobbled up by the neighbor's cats.

 

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Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure what the OP you're responding to means by FA, but you can't fill a roster with the draft, either.  Past the 4th round or so, everyone has low odds.

To me, you have to fill out the roster with FA - not the big name high price FA, but the 2nd and 3rd tier FA guys you bring in to fill gaps and the UDFA you sign to backstop yourself from failure of the late round draft picks.

 

Beane seems to have a tendency to go for rifle shots - the "high ceiling/low floor" guys like Edmunds and Allen.  To build the franchise, you need a couple key guys who are superstars and unless you're drafting at the top of the draft, that's what a GM has to do.  Bully for Beane.  Whaley never would.

 

But when you're filling your roster out, you need guys who can play and maybe you hope they can play more or better than they've shown so far.  And Beane has a distressing tendency to go for the same "high ceiling/low floor" guys there (Vontae, Corey Coleman) - which is great if you hit.  So far his track record is mixed at best.

 

Beane does not get a "pass" for the dead cap, because he created it.

 

 

I actually AGREE with most of this. On your first two points, you're dead on. The second two, let's start with the last point. Yes, he created the dead cap...by design. And that dead cap impacts his choices in FA this year. My thinking is that's a this-year-only kind of thing. I can't judge his pro-personnel decisions this year with any kind of accuracy given the nature of the plan. However, I CAN judge by what he does next year in FA. And if I'm honest, I'm more than willing to give him a pass on just about ANY FA acquisitions so long as he continues his draft strategy.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

I actually AGREE with most of this. On your first two points, you're dead on. The second two, let's start with the last point. Yes, he created the dead cap...by design. And that dead cap impacts his choices in FA this year. My thinking is that's a this-year-only kind of thing. I can't judge his pro-personnel decisions this year with any kind of accuracy given the nature of the plan. However, I CAN judge by what he does next year in FA. And if I'm honest, I'm more than willing to give him a pass on just about ANY FA acquisitions so long as he continues his draft strategy.

 

You may be willing, but if he doesn't clean up the pro-player scouting, the roster will continue to have distressing gaps.

 

Your point about judging him on next year's FA comes back to the point in my first post up-thread: I think both those "hot takes" (massive upgrade and terrible) are premature.  We need to give this draft class a year and see what next year's draft and FA look like.  I'll feel better about what they look like if there are some changes in pro-personnel scouting off-season, because IMO, you can't build a successful roster on draft and top tier FA signings alone.  There has to be depth, and a few pleasant surprises.

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1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You may be willing, but if he doesn't clean up the pro-player scouting, the roster will continue to have distressing gaps.

 

It comes back to the point in my first post up-thread: I think both those "hot takes" (massive upgrade and terrible) are premature.  We need to give this draft class a year and see what next year's draft and FA look like.  I'll feel better about what they look like if there are some changes in pro-personnel scouting off-season.

 

And that's completely reasonable. My perception is often shaded positive toward Beane because he's doing what I BEGGED the Bills to do for the better part of 15 years.

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7 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Right.

 

So tell me again how the LAME DUCK gm was responsible for those picks, not McDermott.

 

Meanwhile, Whaley's gems in the first round...Watkins (who cost WAY too much), Shaq Lawson (pure trash at the DE position), Manuel (BWAHAHAHA) and Gilmore (massively overrated).

 

So again, tell me where the bias is in THAT factual accounting.

 

Again a coach and GM work together. If the GM has a list of players it's usually players that fit a scheme. The HC is 50% the GM 50%. I don't doubt McDermott was in also in control of the 2017 draft. Unlike you I believe the GM makes the board, scouts the players and shares his finding with the HC. Again your bias overshadows any objectivity you would have on any subject.

 

Also my major complaint is with the bad trades and FA signings. Whaley traded for Shady. Beane traded for KB. Whaley signed Alexander, Poyer, Hyde, with a tight cap. Beane signed Marshall Newhouse. I understand it should be built through the draft for 90% of your roster but that doesn't mean you don't need diamonds to come in as free agents. Not big signing, but guys who show up and overperform. If we're talking building a super bowl team we have to be a hell of a lot better at player signings and trades then Beane has shown in a year and a half.

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1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

And that's completely reasonable. My perception is often shaded positive toward Beane because he's doing what I BEGGED the Bills to do for the better part of 15 years.

 

And I totally get that.  It's how I came out of this year's draft, happy that whether they hit or missed, AT LEAST BEANE MADE THE MOVES AND TOOK HIS SHOT instead of whining about how we were "stuck in QB purgatory" as Whaley did.

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1 minute ago, CuddyDark said:

Also my major complaint is with the bad trades and FA signings. Whaley traded for Shady. Beane traded for KB. Whaley signed Alexander, Poyer, Hyde, with a tight cap. Beane signed Marshall Newhouse. I understand it should be built through the draft for 90% of your roster but that doesn't mean you don't need diamonds to come in as free agents. Not big signing, but guys who show up and overperform. If we're talking building a super bowl team we have to be a hell of a lot better at player signings and trades then Beane has shown in a year and a half.


Whaley did well in free agency (though he had some horrible misses like Clay...way too expensive for that guy). But again, when it came to foundational building of a team through the draft, he failed badly. Also, he was horrible at cap management.

 

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2 minutes ago, joesixpack said:


Whaley did well in free agency (though he had some horrible misses like Clay...way too expensive for that guy). But again, when it came to foundational building of a team through the draft, he failed badly. Also, he was horrible at cap management.

 

50+ catches with Tyrod is not a miss. He's too expensive but he's not a "miss." Again, I hope they replace him with a rookie, like Fant in round two but saying he was a miss is just bias.

 

Here's where we agree though. I believe they have to draft well to build a super bowl team.

 

Were we disagree is I don't trust Beane to sign or trade for any player worthy of what we've seen in Alexander or Hyde or Poyer. If he gets bogged down with big shots in the dark next year we could turn into the Redskins of the past. The easiest way to destroy roster building is to sign big contract players who are going through the motion.

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Whaley was good at identifying talent and GREAT at paying way too !@#$ing much for it. There are a bunch of Whaley's picks still playing in the NFL. But he wasn't a team builder, he was a scout. He didn't have a plan, he kind of just threw **** at a wall every year and hoped it stuck. That's why he failed.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Luka said:

Whaley was good at identifying talent and GREAT at paying way too !@#$ing much for it. There are a bunch of Whaley's picks still playing in the NFL. But he wasn't a team builder, he was a scout. He didn't have a plan, he kind of just threw **** at a wall every year and hoped it stuck. That's why he failed.

 

 


This.

 

And a lot of that overpayment is because he failed miserably in the draft.

 

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