Bills/LA Wk 2: All-22 OLine/Qb Unforced Error Analysis

[Bocephuz]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Run game isn't pretty.  I'll give you the 1040EZ right now: every run play I've looked at so far involves use of cut blocks, which if done right put defender and OLman on the turf.  I see our OLmen on the turf right enough, but have yet to see a defender taken down.  On one run play to RT, the opposite side defensive end made the tackle.  Dawkins crossed  in front of him, evidently assigned to pull, but whoever was supposed to block that guy totally whiffed it.

 

Crazy bad.

 

Question: on a play like 2ND & 4 AT BUF 31(08:43) where the all-22 lists it as a run play "J.Allen up the middle to BUF 25 for -6 yards (D.James)" do you score that as a run or as a pass?  It was a fake handoff to Shady where the unblocked defender nailed Allen just afterwards, but it seems pretty obvious it was intended for a pass.  How did you score that one?  Derwin James crossed the formation with Thomas, hinting at man, but then he blitzed and came in unblocked.  Who do you put that on?

8

 

yeah.. I saw Groy whiff on one of the run cut blocks. I miss the old Roman power man blocking.

 

Is it this play?

 

I think I scored that one as a pass attempt and a sack. Its pretty obvious to me they're trying to run PA there. I can't really put that one on Josh Allen. Logan Thomas whiffs on his block.. I have to believe Thomas' first job was to block his guy on this one and not run a route

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

When you have RBs and TEs not pulling their weight in pass protection, it does make the line look worse. The run blocking scheme they are attempting to use is atrocious. That also makes the line look bad. And while these grades are nice and all, Miller and Groy are consistently man handled at the point of attack. Passing lanes/line of sight are a mess and they typically seem to be JUST barely blocking people. A good illustration is the first picture of Miller totally out of sorts and the third image down Groy frantically looking side to side and then just getting enough of the rusher to call it a block.

 

OP is real generous with his grades, must be some common core sliding scale thing.

 

Oh boy is that bolded part true.  The only successful runs by McCoy I've seen so far featured him saying "f*** this, Imma do it myself" and either bouncing outside or making his mind up that he'd dive in and muscle out some yards.

 

On the pass blocking though, while I haven't tried to break it down for the most part I was pleasantly surprised.  There are plenty of plays where Allen has time and simply doesn't pull the trigger on an open guy.  The problem is that the feeling of being under duress (which Allen was a lot, at first) tends to put a QB head in that space.

 

3 minutes ago, Bocephuz said:

 

yeah.. I saw Groy whiff on one of the run cut blocks. I miss the old Roman power man blocking.

 

Is it this play?

 

I think I scored that one as a pass attempt and a sack. Its pretty obvious to me they're trying to run PA there. I can't really put that one on Josh Allen. Logan Thomas whiffs on his block.. I have to believe Thomas' first job was to block his guy on this one and not run a route

 

Yep, that's the one I meant.  Agree with your assessment on both points.

[Bocephuz]

3 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

When you have RBs and TEs not pulling their weight in pass protection, it does make the line look worse. The run blocking scheme they are attempting to use is atrocious. That also makes the line look bad. And while these grades are nice and all, Miller and Groy are consistently man handled at the point of attack. Passing lanes/line of sight are a mess and they typically seem to be JUST barely blocking people. A good illustration is the first picture of Miller totally out of sorts and the third image down Groy frantically looking side to side and then just getting enough of the rusher to call it a block.

 

OP is real generous with his grades, must be some common core sliding scale thing.

 

Run blocking was out of the scope of my analysis here.. only focused on pass protect

 

I showed one example each of MIller and Groy being beaten.. but there were many other plays where they were sufficiently blocking that factored into decent grade

 

I specifically showed clips of the RBs and TEs not doing their job...

[Luka]

Just now, Bocephuz said:

 

Run blocking was out of the scope of my analysis here.. only focused on pass protect

 

I showed one example each of MIller and Groy being beaten.. but there were many other plays where they were sufficiently blocking that factored into decent grade

 

I specifically showed clips of the RBs and TEs not doing their job...

 

Never said you didn't. I'm just saying that your grades of Groy and Miller are generous, considering Groy probably isn't starting this week. I doubt McDermott has a B grade on him. And I've seen Miller literally laying on his back in the backfield more than once. Sufficient time for the QB and blocking well are two different things. The cut block scheme is probably a result of these guys just being weak at the point of attack.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

Never said you didn't. I'm just saying that your grades of Groy and Miller are generous, considering Groy probably isn't starting this week. I doubt McDermott has a B grade on him. And I've seen Miller literally laying on his back in the backfield more than once. Sufficient time for the QB and blocking well are two different things. The cut block scheme is probably a result of these guys just being weak at the point of attack.

 

But here's the thing: they weren't that weak in previous schemes.   And they aren't getting it done any better with the cut blocks, they're just cluttering up the running lanes with their prone carcasses while defenders hurdle them.  Maybe if they're going to get pushed back at the point of attack, they should stay on their feet as at least they're less obstructive to our RB that way.

 

 

[Bocephuz]

15 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

Never said you didn't. I'm just saying that your grades of Groy and Miller are generous, considering Groy probably isn't starting this week. I doubt McDermott has a B grade on him. And I've seen Miller literally laying on his back in the backfield more than once. Sufficient time for the QB and blocking well are two different things. The cut block scheme is probably a result of these guys just being weak at the point of attack.

 

point taken. sufficient is my bar.. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I want to bump Bocephuz work so I'm putting my run blocking assessment here.  I can't grade each lineman.  It's too hard to tell who has what responsibility.  I also didn't look at Allen's runs, because while I can make an educated guess if it's a designed run or scramble, the element of uncertainty adds difficulty.

 

My first goal is to assess the run blocking scheme.  Is the scheme plausible, and the players just can't get it done?   Or is the scheme at fault, and requires change?

 

My answer is "some of both"

 

There were 14 RB plays in the game: 9 to McCoy, 2 to Ivory, 3 to Murray.  That's it.

There were 2 nice runs of 18 and 27 yards - the entire game.  The latter was nice from a 2 TE set, run between the RT and the 2 TE.  The blocking worked (no cuts!).  It begged the question "why not explore those concepts more?"  The former may have been intended to run inside the RT, but McCoy bounced outside.  It was called back on a Miller hold.  I thought the hold (if any) was ticky tack, but I think all the cut blocking invites close scrutiny by the refs and invokes the motto "when in doubt, throw laundry".

 

Of the 7 RB handoffs in the 1st half, 5 of them employed cut blocking, sometimes by 3 different linemen in one play.  They were all stuffed for no or minimal gain.  I know cuts are employed extensively and effectively in the college game, but I saw no NFL defenders taken to the ground Sunday.  Perhaps NFL defenders are too athletic and nimble to cut down. Maybe our OL guys just can't do it consistently.  Daboll: please lose the cuts.  Maybe he figured it out.  There were no cut blocks in the 2nd half.

 

Of the 7 RB handoffs in the 2nd half, 4 worked, one well (the 27 yd gain).  Chris Ivory had two of the best runs on the day aside from McCoy's 27 yd scamper.  Murphy also had a run that made yards. On three of them, the run blocking was so messed up that instead of something like "22pers C gap Ducasse pulled" my notes say things like  "11 pers B? WTF was that?"  It's so messed up I can't answer the question "is it the scheme or is it the linemen?" because I can't figure out what the scheme is supposed to be.  There seems to be a lot of confusion about blocking assignments at times.

 

I think McCoy was actually hurt before it was reported, before Groy fell on him.  There's a play 8:14 in the 3Q, 2-6 at the Buf 39, one of those where my notes say "WTF was that?"  Everybody on the OL flowed to the right, Shady ran directly into an unblocked Ingram, and Ingram literally picked Shady off his feet and slammed him into the turf while another linebacker and the safety piled onto him.  The play where Groy fell on him 5 minutes later hit the same spots that Ingram slammed.

 

This has to be said: before he was hurt, I did not think McCoy ran well.  I don't think it's age; when the blocking worked, or when he bounced outside, he was speedy and showed a burst.  I think at times, McCoy doesn't himself believe that the blocking will work, maybe based upon practice?  If he gains yards, it's going to be him hitting hard and his churning legs, and he's always been "Cut on Dime", elusive, he's never been that kind of RB who grinds it out 3.3 YPC to move the chains.   In my opinion, Shady should sit and heal up.  Having sore ribs is not going to increase his enthusiasm for charging into those snarls and getting the hard fought yards.  Sit him, let him heal, meanwhile sort the blocking.  Maybe he can come back to 5 or 6 plays per game that work well instead of 1 or 2.

 

Daboll and Castillo need to get real with themselves about what blocking schemes they have in their pocket that can actually work with these guys.  They seem to be confusing their own guys far more than they're fooling the defense.  Lose the cut blocks, lose the fakery that is fooling no one, put in 2 tight ends and a fullback.

 

OK, that's what I got.

 

[ganesh]

10 hours ago, Big C said:

Appreciate the work. Hoping Allen shows some improvements in his second start. Happy to see all these reports that the line is doing fairly well. 

THe line is...but the TE and RB who are part of the blocking scheme have been blowing it up!

7 hours ago, Bocephuz said:

 

Run blocking was out of the scope of my analysis here.. only focused on pass protect

 

I showed one example each of MIller and Groy being beaten.. but there were many other plays where they were sufficiently blocking that factored into decent grade

 

I specifically showed clips of the RBs and TEs not doing their job...

I think the OL has not been able to open enough holes for the Running Game...Center has been pretty horrible in this aspect.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, ganesh said:

THe line is...but the TE and RB who are part of the blocking scheme have been blowing it up!

I think the OL has not been able to open enough holes for the Running Game...Center has been pretty horrible in this aspect.

 

When you look carefully the problems are far from limited to the center, and seem to involve ineffective blocking schemes (cut blocking) and confusion among the blockers as to whom they should block.  We had something like 5 positive running plays, 2 that worked well (of which 1 was called back for holding).

 

Yes, sometimes they are getting beaten like drums, but that's far from the only problem.

[Bocephuz]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I want to bump Bocephuz work so I'm putting my run blocking assessment here.  I can't grade each lineman.  It's too hard to tell who has what responsibility.  I also didn't look at Allen's runs, because while I can make an educated guess if it's a designed run or scramble, the element of uncertainty adds difficulty.

 

My first goal is to assess the run blocking scheme.  Is the scheme plausible, and the players just can't get it done?   Or is the scheme at fault, and requires change?

 

My answer is "some of both"

 

There were 14 RB plays in the game: 9 to McCoy, 2 to Ivory, 3 to Murray.  That's it.

There were 2 nice runs of 18 and 27 yards - the entire game.  The latter was nice from a 2 TE set, run between the RT and the 2 TE.  The blocking worked (no cuts!).  It begged the question "why not explore those concepts more?"  The former may have been intended to run inside the RT, but McCoy bounced outside.  It was called back on a Miller hold.  I thought the hold (if any) was ticky tack, but I think all the cut blocking invites close scrutiny by the refs and invokes the motto "when in doubt, throw laundry".

 

Of the 7 RB handoffs in the 1st half, 5 of them employed cut blocking, sometimes by 3 different linemen in one play.  They were all stuffed for no or minimal gain.  I know cuts are employed extensively and effectively in the college game, but I saw no NFL defenders taken to the ground Sunday.  Perhaps NFL defenders are too athletic and nimble to cut down. Maybe our OL guys just can't do it consistently.  Daboll: please lose the cuts.  Maybe he figured it out.  There were no cut blocks in the 2nd half.

 

Of the 7 RB handoffs in the 2nd half, 4 worked, one well (the 27 yd gain).  Chris Ivory had two of the best runs on the day aside from McCoy's 27 yd scamper.  Murphy also had a run that made yards. On three of them, the run blocking was so messed up that instead of something like "22pers C gap Ducasse pulled" my notes say things like  "11 pers B? WTF was that?"  It's so messed up I can't answer the question "is it the scheme or is it the linemen?" because I can't figure out what the scheme is supposed to be.  There seems to be a lot of confusion about blocking assignments at times.

 

I think McCoy was actually hurt before it was reported, before Groy fell on him.  There's a play 8:14 in the 3Q, 2-6 at the Buf 39, one of those where my notes say "WTF was that?"  Everybody on the OL flowed to the right, Shady ran directly into an unblocked Ingram, and Ingram literally picked Shady off his feet and slammed him into the turf while another linebacker and the safety piled onto him.  The play where Groy fell on him 5 minutes later hit the same spots that Ingram slammed.

 

This has to be said: before he was hurt, I did not think McCoy ran well.  I don't think it's age; when the blocking worked, or when he bounced outside, he was speedy and showed a burst.  I think at times, McCoy doesn't himself believe that the blocking will work, maybe based upon practice?  If he gains yards, it's going to be him hitting hard and his churning legs, and he's always been "Cut on Dime", elusive, he's never been that kind of RB who grinds it out 3.3 YPC to move the chains.   In my opinion, Shady should sit and heal up.  Having sore ribs is not going to increase his enthusiasm for charging into those snarls and getting the hard fought yards.  Sit him, let him heal, meanwhile sort the blocking.  Maybe he can come back to 5 or 6 plays per game that work well instead of 1 or 2.

 

Daboll and Castillo need to get real with themselves about what blocking schemes they have in their pocket that can actually work with these guys.  They seem to be confusing their own guys far more than they're fooling the defense.  Lose the cut blocks, lose the fakery that is fooling no one, put in 2 tight ends and a fullback.

 

OK, that's what I got.

 

 

good to see they were open to changing it up to more downhill blocking in 2nd half.  im fine with 3 yards and a cloud of dust. 

[Big C]

10 hours ago, ganesh said:

THe line is...but the TE and RB who are part of the blocking scheme have been blowing it up!

I think the OL has not been able to open enough holes for the Running Game...Center has been pretty horrible in this aspect.

 

You are correct... not to mention the receivers are not helping much in the run game either. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

55 minutes ago, Big C said:

You are correct... not to mention the receivers are not helping much in the run game either. 

 

Some are, some aren't.  Foster is being asked to contribute with end-arounds.  He's doing as asked. Holmes showed some competent blocking when asked.

The best rush of the day featured Croom and (I think) Thomas blocking in tandem.

 

I haven't noticed Zay Jones, which could be either good or bad. 

Benjamin is Mr Whiffy - I mean, Kelvin *pretend* like you care OK?

Allen is totally lame.  No one wants to see Allen leading with his surgically repaired shoulder, but he could learn to chip or at least get in the way enough to slow a guy down - woulda meant Shady got body-slammed by 2 guys instead of 3 on 2-6 Buf 39 3Q.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bocephuz said:

good to see they were open to changing it up to more downhill blocking in 2nd half.  im fine with 3 yards and a cloud of dust. 

 

To be fair, the downhill blocking they tried in the first half (2 plays) were pretty much blocking fails, but at least with guys standing up and impeding their targets Shady was able to bounce one outside for a good gain.  And I can't pin it on Groy - in one case Ducasse was beaten like a drum, in the other Miller was called for holding, negating that good gain.

 

It's not like downhill suddenly worked great in the 2nd half, but I think (hope) if they focus on just one thing they might eliminate some of the confusion about assignments and it would go better overall. 

 

The best run play brought in 2 TE to block.  There are still 3 plays in the 2nd half where I'm trying to figure out what the @#$@#% the blocking was supposed to look like. 

 

11 hours ago, ganesh said:

I think the OL has not been able to open enough holes for the Running Game...Center has been pretty horrible in this aspect.

 

There is no way you can watch the debacle that has been our run game blocking and pin it just on the center.  If you're noticing his a** on the grass a lot (which is what I saw on first glance) it's actually because they were being asked to cut block a lot in the Ravens game and the 1st half of Chargers. 

[Buffalo716]

Good job by everybody 

 

one thing is for sure, the Bills new run blocking scheme is pretty complex and they are having some problems executing 

 

keep it simple stupid

[Domdab99]

But wait, everyone on this forum is absolutely positive the OL is to blame! You mean THEY'RE WRONG???

 

Amazing. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

But wait, everyone on this forum is absolutely positive the OL is to blame! You mean THEY'RE WRONG???

 

Amazing. 

 

The Bills haven’t been able to run block all season 

 

we have guys laying on the turf every play

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

But wait, everyone on this forum is absolutely positive the OL is to blame! You mean THEY'RE WRONG???

Amazing. 

 

They're partly wrong.  The pass blocking isn't strong or luxurious but it's sufficient most times for Allen to get the ball out esp. on quick hits.  He is missing guys who are open before he bails.  Usually if it isn't, it's due to a missed blitz pickup or a whiffed block by a TE, not the OL per se.

 

The run blocking sucks.  We didn't have as many guys laying on the turf once Daboll stepped away from the cut blocking. It was still ugly and the issues go far beyond Groy.