SI - Josh Allen, Thrown to the Wolves

[Big Turk]

10 hours ago, leonbus23 said:

First of all, Shep is an attorney in Chicago and doing fine. Second, tell your nonsense to David Carr. 

David Carr just wasnt any good.

[metzelaars_lives]

14 hours ago, leonbus23 said:

First of all, Shep is an attorney in Chicago and doing fine. Second, tell your nonsense to David Carr. 

Haha what?  No he's not?

[BrooklynBills]

Skill position players for Carson Wentz his rookie year:

 

RB: Darren Sproles, Ryan Matthew, Wendell Smallwood, Byron Marshall

 

WR/TE: Zach Ertz, Trey Burton (had not produced anything yet), Jordan Matthews, Nelson Agholor(disappointing up to this point), Dorial Green Bekham, Bryce Treggs, Josh Huff, Aaron Grymes

 

OL: better than ours

 

If Allen is good, he'll show it this year regardless of who he's playing with.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, BrooklynBills said:

 

 

If Allen is good, he'll show it this year regardless of who he's playing with.

Exactly.  I think we've seen it already.  How much better he gets remains to be seen. 

[oldmanfan]

Some folks seem to think NFL players, and QBs in particular, should be like umpires or surgeons.  They should be perfect day 1 of the job and then improve.

[Real McClappy]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.  I think we've seen it already.  How much better he gets remains to be seen. 

It simply takes time for a raw rookie QB to develop, a min.1yr of playing time. 

 

In all honesty his debut with 245yds a TD with a couple picks is actually pretty promising for what he is working with. His rating will go up no doubt in my mind. 

 

All I'm looking for is progression throughout the year from him to get better and better. 

 

I'm not sure what people were realistically expecting his 1st start in the NFL? 400yds and 4tds???

 

We all want it now but patience is a absolute must. 

[TheElectricCompany]

500 yards and 5 TDs. Duh. 

What are we even talking about now? 

The original point of the article was that Allen has very little proven support around him, and that will likely play a factor in his development. 

[Ramza86]

On 9/19/2018 at 10:45 AM, matter2003 said:

It's irrelevant.  People who succeed will do it regardless of the circumstances they are given.  If they have the talent, it won't matter. People who say this type of stuff are much more like Vontae Davis than Kyle Williams.  When the going gets tough they just cry and whine and pack up their things and go home.  PRetty sure Mark Sheppard is not very successful, people who are don't think like that.

 

Uh......

[Tcali]

Allen has showed great attitude and great athleticism so far.I don't see this kid getting demoralized.He is a winner...albeit one who is really not a very good passer and has a ton of fundamental flaws in his game.

the positive is that the kid can get the ball moved down the field.

PS-the protection wasn't that bad.He had tons of time to throw.And he needs to not create pressure by standing there like a wooden indian when looking downfield--then trying to escape after 5 seconds when a guy is finally on him.A little foot movement and eye movement and shifting of position while there is no pressure can extend his time to throw the ball considerably.

[SoTier]

On 9/19/2018 at 11:21 AM, Nihilarian said:

This is baloney. QB's that go to bad teams usually end up on the scrap heap and the some that do succeed like Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman didn't go to teams as bad as the current Buffalo Bills. Manning was only sacked 22 times his first year at Indy and Aikman was only sacked 19 times at Dallas. Meanwhile Allen has already been sacked 8 times in a game and a half. 

 

While David Carr was sacked 79 times and referred to as a tackling dummy...the Bills QBs are on a pace to beat that number with 88 as Josh with 8, Peterman with 3 in a little over a half. 

 

The article mentions Manning but doesn't say he was only sacked 22 times because he also had some decent talent on his offensive line to protect him. He also had Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison on that team. It was Manning learning the ropes with a 56.7 completion percentage and with 26 TDs, 28 Ints. 

 

As for Aikman his offensive line was arguably the very best the NFL has ever seen with LT Mark Tuinei 15 years with Dallas, LG Nate Newton 13 years with Dallas, Center Tom Raftery 14 years with Dallas, RG Crawford Kerr 6 years with Dallas, RT Kevin Cogan 7 years with Dallas, 14 in the NFL. Aikman learning the NFL ropes  9 TDs, 18 INTs with a 52.9 completion percentage. 

 

**What's interesting to me is the same year the team drafted Aikman #1 overall they also drafted OG Steve Wisniewski with the 29th pick (second round) and center Mark Stepnoski with the #57th pick (3rd round). So, it looks like the Cowboys FO went out of their way to make sure that pick at QB was well protected. 

 

 

Like I said, you throw a rookie QB on a bad team that can't protect him and he usually ends up on the scrap heap. If Allen even survives this season it will be a miracle. 

 

This is an excellent post!  Congrats!  As I've said numerous times in the past, Allen has been set up to fail because the team around him is so bad.  In any field, the individuals who succeed without some kind of support from family, friends, teammates, teachers, etc are very rare because no one exists in a vacuum.  

[Chris66]

On 9/19/2018 at 11:36 AM, Chuck Wagon said:

 

Tim Couch, for one.

 

It's a pretty tough argument to support either way.  Guys who were never given a chance could just as easily be labeled as "not talented enough".

 

 

But Goff is a pretty good recent example.  His rookie year he was labeled a bust and pretty much written off.  Gurley was also labeled a one year wonder.  The Rams hired an innovative coach, completely overhauled their WR core and brought in a vet LT and Center, suddenly they are the best offense in football.  

 

Simply put, very few if any current "franchise QBs" around the league were put into a worse situation than Allen currently faces.  However, many "never was / draft busts" faced similar circumstances.  To pretend a guy should be so talented you can just roll the ball out there with anyone from day 1 and he'll make it work is one of the dumber things I've seen said on this forum.

So basically for Allen to succeed. The Bills have to fire McDermott and hire an up and comin o coordinator.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 9/19/2018 at 10:41 AM, TheElectricCompany said:

Fire away!

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/18/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-rookie-starting-quarterback

 

 

 

From an organizational standpoint he is in the best hands , but on the field he is in the worst.

 

I've said it before and I love McBeane, but they made a huge mistake in not surrounding Allen with talent immediately.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 9/19/2018 at 10:21 AM, Nihilarian said:

This is baloney. QB's that go to bad teams usually end up on the scrap heap and the some that do succeed like Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman didn't go to teams as bad as the current Buffalo Bills. Manning was only sacked 22 times his first year at Indy and Aikman was only sacked 19 times at Dallas. Meanwhile Allen has already been sacked 8 times in a game and a half.

 

Manning came into the league able to make quick decisions and get the ball out fast.  He threw 28 INT that 22-sack rookie year, a side-effect of an inexperienced QB with a quick draw.   Aikman ditto I believe, though I wasn't watching football his rookie year.  He threw twice as many INT as TD though (18 in 11 games), again minimizing sacks but.... you still have a valid point.

 

I'm of two minds after having watched most of Allen's snaps now. 

 

On the one hand, legitimately a bunch of his sacks are "on him" and not on the OL - I say "on him" because I don't know who is supposed to be setting the protections, but either the protections are wrong and miss picking up a blitzer, or Allen fails to use his outlet as soon as he sees the blitzer, or he holds the ball too long while there's at least one open man doing jumping jacks to get his attention downfield.

 

On the other hand, since defenses are designed to confuse the QB and lead to the missed the pickup, I got to fault the OL sometimes for not picking up a blitzer when they're not engaged and they could.   And Allen has avoided at least as many sacks as he's taken, by rolling out or running, and some of those were clearly breakdowns in protection.

 

I've started wondering if the whole puzzling "no vet QB" situation was a deliberate choice by Daboll, Culley and Castillo because they wanted a guy who is a blank slate and would not have any differing viewpoints presented to him like "yeah, dude, you missed the protection call there but nothing stopped your guard from spotting the guy and picking him up anyway so it ain't all on you"

 

 

 

 

[Nihilarian]

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Manning came into the league able to make quick decisions and get the ball out fast.  He threw 28 INT that 22-sack rookie year, a side-effect of an inexperienced QB with a quick draw.   Aikman ditto I believe, though I wasn't watching football his rookie year.  He threw twice as many INT as TD though (18 in 11 games), again minimizing sacks but.... you still have a valid point.

 

I'm of two minds after having watched most of Allen's snaps now. 

 

On the one hand, legitimately a bunch of his sacks are "on him" and not on the OL - I say "on him" because I don't know who is supposed to be setting the protections, but either the protections are wrong and miss picking up a blitzer, or Allen fails to use his outlet as soon as he sees the blitzer, or he holds the ball too long while there's at least one open man doing jumping jacks to get his attention downfield.

 

On the other hand, since defenses are designed to confuse the QB and lead to the missed the pickup, I got to fault the OL sometimes for not picking up a blitzer when they're not engaged and they could.   And Allen has avoided at least as many sacks as he's taken, by rolling out or running, and some of those were clearly breakdowns in protection.

 

I've started wondering if the whole puzzling "no vet QB" situation was a deliberate choice by Daboll, Culley and Castillo because they wanted a guy who is a blank slate and would not have any differing viewpoints presented to him like "yeah, dude, you missed the protection call there but nothing stopped your guard from spotting the guy and picking him up anyway so it ain't all on you"

From what I understand is that when you have a rookie QB starting. The center is the one who should be calling the line protections. Simply because the QB has little idea of what he is looking at pre snap. That is of course if you have an experienced center.

 

Another issue is what I see in line protections as they have been somewhat of a clusterfluck of missed assignments, whiffed blocks and blocking the wrong man. Both the TEs and RB's missing blocks, not seeing them, not looking for them or not caring.  That's all on coaching! 

 

Not having a veteran QB on the roster to show the kid the ropes his first year is simply the wrong thing to do. Marrone/Whaley did it with EJ, Lewis and Tuel and how did that work out for those three?

 

This rookie QB needs all the help he can get to develop properly and from what I've seen his O line stinks, the protections stinks, the Bills don't have a power run game anymore and are 29th in the NFL in run blocking. His receiving corps is nothing special so he is holding the ball far too long waiting for someone to break open. Then again he doesn't always see the open guy, which should come in time... if given time.

 

Allen was lucky last week as the Chargers best pass rusher was out with an injury and as it was the line couldn't block Ingram. I shudder to think of how many sacks the two of them would have had on Allen. The line coach needs to remove his cranium from his posterior.

[Turk71]

It's not rocket science, putting a rookie qb behind probably the worst line in the league with no talent at wr is not a good situation. Why would you spend your fa money on washed up def players when you are picking a qb at the top of the draft? Makes no sense. They should have focused on the offensive line and wrs and fixed the d next year imo. That way your future qb does not get destroyed while getting up to nfl speed.

[Shaw66]

I've had this thought for days now, and I'll throw it in here. 

 

I seriously doubt that the Bills have the worst offensive line in the league.   I'm not saying it's good.   As I watch games around the league, I'm seeing a LOT of atrocious line play.   Defenders are getting free runs at the QB for many, if not most, teams.   I don't think Allen has been in any more trouble back there than a lot of QBs over the first couple of weeks.   

 

It's something we've been hearing for a few years now.  There are few stud offensive linemen coming out of college.  Guys in the pros literally are going to off-season camps to learn how to block in the NFL.  On top of that, the defensive schemes keep getting more complex, with more disguises.   A lot of teams are rushing linebackers and defensive backs and dropping DEs into coverage.  It's complex.  

 

One of the encouraging things about Allen is that he scrambles well, and he doesn't go down easily.   It's a skill all QBs need now - if you're a statue back there, you're going down.    

[Avisan]

There are a weird number of Just-World, Prosperity-Gospelers on this board.

 

Talent alone won't make you succeed.  Hard work alone won't make you succeed.  There are plenty of players as talented and as hard-working as Josh Allen that have washed out in this league because success is as dependent on organizational fit and dumb luck as it is on hard work and talent.

 

Anyone remember Matt Flynn?  Dude lit it up in multiple seasons as a backup for the Packers.  Couldn't hack it anywhere else in the league.

 

Talent and hard work won't save Josh Allen when his feet start getting happy, his arm misfires, or his desire to win causes him to throw balls he shouldn't.

 

Great QBs have down years where either on a personal level or on a team level things don't gel.  Mediocre QBs have great years where everything just clicks.  We love to delude ourselves that we live in a world where things are fair and that they happen as they "should" happen.  It isn't true.  It's never been true.

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

From an organizational standpoint he is in the best hands , but on the field he is in the worst.

 

I've said it before and I love McBeane, but they made a huge mistake in not surrounding Allen with talent immediately.

 

 

An impossibility this year. McBeane are playing the long game. In the meantime, Allen is a big man, with athletic chops and a good head on his shoulders, so he can handle some wolves while he gets vital reps to jump start his development. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

8 hours ago, K-9 said:

An impossibility this year. McBeane are playing the long game. In the meantime, Allen is a big man, with athletic chops and a good head on his shoulders, so he can handle some wolves while he gets vital reps to jump start his development. 

 

No it was not. Focus on offense not defense, which will be exceptional in this upcoming draft.

 

We sign :

TE Jimmy Graham

WR Allen Robinson

G Justin Pugh

RT Chris Hubbard

 

Draft 

G will Hernandez

TE Mark Andrews

And a decent WR

 

This would have transformed the offense, which is now on life support and the defense hasn't exactly looked great either. Hopefully  McD keeps running that.