CountDorkula Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said: Well said. The only thing you've missed about the uneducated fans are the constant calls for firing people. They are doing the right thing and sucking it up and fixing things cap wise this year. It's going to be a long year especially with all the uneducated posters and threads about firing everyone. They created this Cap Mess, just an FYI. The restructured Taylors contract. Then traded Him. They needed o-line and traded away Glenn Dareus is the Center of the best defense in football, that just beat the Pats. They traded for Coelman, and then cut him. They renegotiated Incognitos contract which caused that spiral. Just because I disagree with you now means I am uneducated. I wonder what insult you will throw at me / the uneducated next. I think you should just skip to "Go become a Pats fan" That's my favorite. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bockeye Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 25 minutes ago, Rigotz said: There are educated fans and uneducated fans. The educated fans understand the financial side of things and the reasonable expectation that you don't build a super bowl winner over night. The uneducated fans want to GIT ER DONE OBD every single season, which leads to a 7-9 record for two decades. Thank god this franchise is finally aligned with educated fans. We all knew this season would be bad. It's only surprising to the Git Er Done crew. I think a lot of fans were on board with the process but have begun to waiver with good reason. Building a team is an investment. For every player you bring in via draft, FA, or trade, you want to see a positive return on investment. The current regimes track record is less than stellar to date. While I agree that some players could and should develop, the current evaluation of investments does not look so good. Here's just a sampling: Negative return on investment: Star Lotulelei Trent Murphy Corey Coleman Vonte Davis Kelvin Benjamin Zay Jones Tremaine Edmunds others??? Positive Return on Investment: Jordan Poyer Steven Hauschka Micah Hyde others??? Even Money Josh Allen What category would you put the big trades in? Tyrod Taylor Marcel Dareus Sammy Watkins Ronald Darby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billzgobowlin Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just now, Ittakestime said: Whaley was fine with the cap. He operated like winning teams do where they play it year by year and restructure when necessary. Beane created this mess and that's just the facts. Dareus to Star did not need to happen. Wood's extension did not need to happen. Tyrod to McCarron did not need to happen. Coleman did not need to happen. Glenn did not need to happen. Ragland did not need to happen. Like the Steelers Patriots and Packers? None of them spend like drunken sailors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 45 minutes ago, Batman1876 said: Background- Whaley spent to the cap in the 2013 season, 2014 season, 2015 season and 2016 season. He never rolled over more than 2 mil in any single year. In order to sustain this spending contracts had to be back loaded and contracts needed to be reworked. These things are common in teams making a championship push, we never made that push but we did pay for the attempt. 2017- Heading into the off season we had 24 million in cap space. Our major free agents were Woods, Goodwin, Gilmore, Zack Brown and Lorenzo Alexander. In order to have resigned them they would have needed to rely on cheep contracts now that become expensive later, as well as renegotiating other contracts. Looking ahead these choices would eventually lead to not being able to retain talent, just like retaining Woods, Gilmore and Goodwin was going to be tough in 2017. Looking ahead to 2018- Talent was going to be lost on the way to 2018, no way around it. There wouldn't be cap room to replace that talent either meaning the reliance was going to be solely on the draft to fill those gaps. If you look at how our cap would have projected you can see the crunch we were in. These figures are based on the actual 2018 cap hits of these players or the cost to have kept their contracts in the case of traded players. Some of these players may have had larger cap hits for us as a consequence of squeezing them under our 2017 cap. The players we did not resign Gilmore- 12.5 Woods-5.5 Goodwin-6.2 Total 24.2 The players we traded Watkins- 13.2 (cost of 5th year option) Darius- 16 Glenn-15 Tyrod-16 Total-60.2 The retirement Wood- 9 Players we kept Mccoy-9 Clay-9 Hughes-10.4 K Williams- 5.5 Total 33.9 The total for that core group of players that our 2016 roster was built around would have been 127.3 million in 2018 Leaving 50 Million to sign 2017 rookies, 2018 rookies and fill a total of 41 other roster spots an impossible task. Excuses are stron with this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Bockeye said: I think a lot of fans were on board with the process but have begun to waiver with good reason. Building a team is an investment. For every player you bring in via draft, FA, or trade, you want to see a positive return on investment. The current regimes track record is less than stellar to date. While I agree that some players could and should develop, the current evaluation of investments does not look so good. Here's just a sampling: Negative return on investment: Star Lotulelei Trent Murphy Corey Coleman Vonte Davis Kelvin Benjamin Zay Jones Tremaine Edmunds others??? Positive Return on Investment: Jordan Poyer Steven Hauschka Micah Hyde others??? Even Money Josh Allen What category would you put the big trades in? Tyrod Taylor Marcel Dareus Sammy Watkins Ronald Darby Couple things. I woudln't put Edmunds as a negative. Poyer and Hyde I believe were signed by Whaley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 I think its valid to look at the people Beane and McDermott have traded and signed and wonder if they understand what it takes to win in this league. You're out there trying to compete with Pat Mahomes and Tyreke Hill with Josh Allen and Zay Jones. We're out there trying to compete with the Packers, Vikings, Jaguars, Patriots with Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones leading the WR group, with worn out LeSean McCoy and a pop-gun offensive scheme. Does McDermott and/or Beane even want talented players? Or do they think they can watch tape more intently than everyone else in the league and work harder than everyone on the field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Personally I hope some of them are fired and need to spend more time on job hunts. That's nice. Wishing for people to fail. You seem like a swell fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, CountDorkula said: Poyer and Hyde I believe were signed by Whaley. Why do people keep perpetuating this nonsense? Whaley had NO say on signings the moment McDermott walked into the building. He was a lame duck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, CountDorkula said: That's nice. Wishing for people to fail. You seem like a swell fella. Not everyone can be dorks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 49 minutes ago, RyanC883 said: the freaking Browns had no problem getting FA's to go there. We will have no issue getting FA's to come here. shhhhh That does not fit the narrative of the punch bowl pissers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodman19 Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 B word and whine all you want, it is what it is and they are clearly moving ahead with the current plan and no one is going anywhere until it's completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Why do people keep perpetuating this nonsense? Whaley had NO say on signings the moment McDermott walked into the building. He was a lame duck. Who was the GM? Whos scouting staff wrote the reports? I know i know TV scouting 7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: shhhhh That does not fit the narrative of the punch bowl pissers The Browns also did a regime change without throwing the baby’s out with the bath water. But I know doesnt fit the excuse agenda Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Who was the GM? Whos scouting staff wrote the reports? I know i know TV scouting The Browns also did a regime change without throwing the baby’s out with the bath water. But I know doesnt fit the excuse agenda Why should they....they draft in the top 5 every friggen year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: Why should they....they draft in the top 5 every friggen year? Just saying they did a regime change without a purge. Interesting and that is on a 1-31 team. No purge Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPbillsfan Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 59 minutes ago, Batman1876 said: Background- Whaley spent to the cap in the 2013 season, 2014 season, 2015 season and 2016 season. He never rolled over more than 2 mil in any single year. In order to sustain this spending contracts had to be back loaded and contracts needed to be reworked. These things are common in teams making a championship push, we never made that push but we did pay for the attempt. 2017- Heading into the off season we had 24 million in cap space. Our major free agents were Woods, Goodwin, Gilmore, Zack Brown and Lorenzo Alexander. In order to have resigned them they would have needed to rely on cheep contracts now that become expensive later, as well as renegotiating other contracts. Looking ahead these choices would eventually lead to not being able to retain talent, just like retaining Woods, Gilmore and Goodwin was going to be tough in 2017. Looking ahead to 2018- Talent was going to be lost on the way to 2018, no way around it. There wouldn't be cap room to replace that talent either meaning the reliance was going to be solely on the draft to fill those gaps. If you look at how our cap would have projected you can see the crunch we were in. These figures are based on the actual 2018 cap hits of these players or the cost to have kept their contracts in the case of traded players. Some of these players may have had larger cap hits for us as a consequence of squeezing them under our 2017 cap. The players we did not resign Gilmore- 12.5 Woods-5.5 Goodwin-6.2 Total 24.2 The players we traded Watkins- 13.2 (cost of 5th year option) Darius- 16 Glenn-15 Tyrod-16 Total-60.2 The retirement Wood- 9 Players we kept Mccoy-9 Clay-9 Hughes-10.4 K Williams- 5.5 Total 33.9 The total for that core group of players that our 2016 roster was built around would have been 127.3 million in 2018 Leaving 50 Million to sign 2017 rookies, 2018 rookies and fill a total of 41 other roster spots an impossible task. Awesome post. Thank You. The Bills had a significant salary disaster on their hands. 2018 is the sacrifice, growth and development year. I'm 60, a huge Bills fan, had season tickets in 1964-1975 until I joined the Navy, now live in San Diego and have since 1982. So I want the Bills to succeed but fully accept the one step backwards in the hopes of a major spring forward is the Pathway our current management has chosen. I honestly hope we do end up with the worst record in the league next year and when the NFL Network, ESPN and Fox are in Nashville in April 2019, they will be announcing Nick Bosa with the 1st pick in the draft followed by whatever needs we have with our remaining 9 picks after we use our $91,000,000 worth of cap space wisely. Step back and spring forward is the approach our other team the Buffalo Sabres have done. Look at the high end potential of that team with tons of young talent and two potential generational players in Jack Eichel and Rasmus Dahlin and a slew talented kids in the farm system and a ton of future high draft picks. For those who are old enough, remember how the Bills added top talent in the 1984-1988 drafts, then added key pieces when the USFL folded and became an NFL Power for 10 years. Let's hope the same thing happens again 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Good summary of the math. May go over some heads though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just now, MAJBobby said: Just saying they did a regime change without a purge. Interesting The bills did it differently....I think where they are as a football team is different because the bills actually won 9 games last year which probably has something to do with the way they went about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Why should they....they draft in the top 5 every friggen year? And never mind that they'd already borne TWO FULL YEARS of teardown and tradearound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Just now, joesixpack said: And never mind that they'd already borne TWO FULL YEARS of teardown and tradearound. Regime change on a 1-31 team with no purge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorpma Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Rigotz said: There are educated fans and uneducated fans. The educated fans understand the financial side of things and the reasonable expectation that you don't build a super bowl winner over night. The uneducated fans want to GIT ER DONE OBD every single season, which leads to a 7-9 record for two decades. Thank god this franchise is finally aligned with educated fans. We all knew this season would be bad. It's only surprising to the Git Er Done crew. Thank you, great post, you have to realize we are dealing with let's just say a different generation of fans in 2018! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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