Joe B.: Bills Sacrificing Miserable Season For Long-Term Growth

[Batman1876]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

How about we keep it simple.

 

Could we expect their roster moves to match what they say the expected? AND Not Contradict it?

 

Could we see game days rosters also reflect the same?

 

Like I said start simple

 

And All people are saying is this new found development take it on the chin year is just an after the fact spin.  Otherwise NONE of the offseason moves and week 1 Roster make sense do they?

You keep saying they make no sense, you are wrong. There is no other way to put it you are wrong. But I'll ask you, what would you have expected to see from a team prepping for a developmental year?

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So when did they choose this?

 

after 47-3? Because it always has been win now win in future. Then COMPLETELY Gutted And self inflicted an excuse of dead money. And the blind followers slop it up. 

 

Cleveland Rebuild with Dorsey did they GUT Sashi Browns talent because it was Sashi Browns talent?

They chose that when they traded Dareus, Sammy, Darby, cordy,  pretty obvious to me and everyone else

[Tenhigh]

10 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Nope three very easy moves to show this was an after the fact excuse. 

 

Kerley and Holmes over Coleman, Phillips or Reilly

V. Davis over a younger CB

Starting Peterman week 1. 

Personally, I understood what you meant the first 45 times you said it in this thread. 

[njbuff]

I’m fine with a really bad season, but who are the keepers on this team?

 

Is their a foundation of at least 6 young good players to build around?

[BuffaloHokie13]

3 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I’m fine with a really bad season, but who are the keepers on this team?

 

Is their a foundation of at least 6 young good players to build around?

I think White, Edmunds, Milano, Phillips, Dawkins, and Allen are all candidates to be solid contributors to stars for a while for us.

[MAJBobby]

28 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

You keep saying they make no sense, you are wrong. There is no other way to put it you are wrong. But I'll ask you, what would you have expected to see from a team prepping for a developmental year?

 

Keeping a two year Cost Controlled WR Contract that was the TOP WR in College his draft year for more than two weeks over Kerley (that aging vet).

Starting your Rookie QB from jump instead of force feeding a bad 5th round pick the position

Keeping a Reilly or Phillips on the roster over a ST only player in Holmes

NOT Signing Big money contracts to players that will not be here when they are good using up vital cap space

 

That is just THIS Offseason.

 

But I know the CoTP will tell me I am wrong

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

They chose that when they traded Dareus, Sammy, Darby, cordy,  pretty obvious to me and everyone else

 

Ok then they CHOSE the CAP Problems, kinda hard to use that as an excuse then right? 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[Batman1876]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Keeping a two year Cost Controlled WR Contract that was the TOP WR in College his draft year for more than two weeks over Kerley (that aging vet).

Starting your Rookie QB from jump instead of force feeding a bad 5th round pick the position

Keeping a Reilly or Phillips on the roster over a ST only player in Holmes

NOT Signing Big money contracts to players that will not be here when they are good using up vital cap space

 

That is just THIS Offseason.

 

But I know the CoTP will tell me I am wrong

By cost controlled you mean 13.2 million, hardly cost controlled. Its also 14 times more than Kerley's contract. 

Peterman wasn't force fed, he had looked the best up until that point, letting your QB learn for a couple of weeks before starting him is still a developmental season move. 

So having 4 young wide receivers instead of 3 would have made all the difference to you?

What big money contracts? Star is the 40th highest paid D-lineman and his 6 million this year is hardly big money.  Besides him there is nothing close to big money.  

 

I get these points convince you that they did not look at this as a developmental year but the evidence to the contrary is far bigger

Drafting a QB at 7 who was likely to need developmental time.

Starting the youngest MLB in history.

Solving the cap problem by eating dead cap this year in exchange for draft picks.

Having 20 first and second year guys getting significant playing time.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Batman1876 said:

By cost controlled you mean 13.2 million, hardly cost controlled. Its also 14 times more than Kerley's contract. 

Yes 3.5M and an option you can decide to pick up or not After a full season is the complete definition of COST CONTROLLED

 

Just now, Batman1876 said:

Peterman wasn't force fed, he had looked the best up until that point, letting your QB learn for a couple of weeks before starting him is still a developmental season move. 

So having 4 young wide receivers instead of 3 would have made all the difference to you?

What big money contracts? Star is the 40th highest paid D-lineman and his 6 million this year is hardly big money.  Besides him there is nothing close to big money.

 

30M guaranteed for a block eater, 50M overall YEAH that is big money  

 

I get these points convince you that they did not look at this as a developmental year but the evidence to the contrary is far bigger

Drafting a QB at 7 who was likely to need developmental time. - and Signing and hoping for McCarron to start

Starting the youngest MLB in history.

Solving the cap problem by eating dead cap this year in exchange for draft picks. AGAIN 3 of the top 5 dead cap are self inflicted and NOTHING to do with Whaley

Having 20 first and second year guys getting significant playing time.

 

[Batman1876]

19 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Yes 3.5M and an option you can decide to pick up or not After a full season is the complete definition of COST CONTROLLED

 

Peterman wasn't force fed, he had looked the best up until that point, letting your QB learn for a couple of weeks before starting him is still a developmental season move. 

So having 4 young wide receivers instead of 3 would have made all the difference to you?

What big money contracts? Star is the 40th highest paid D-lineman and his 6 million this year is hardly big money.  Besides him there is nothing close to big money.

 

30M guaranteed for a block eater, 50M overall YEAH that is big money  

 

I get these points convince you that they did not look at this as a developmental year but the evidence to the contrary is far bigger

Drafting a QB at 7 who was likely to need developmental time. - and Signing and hoping for McCarron to start

Starting the youngest MLB in history.

Solving the cap problem by eating dead cap this year in exchange for draft picks. AGAIN 3 of the top 5 dead cap are self inflicted and NOTHING to do with Whaley

Having 20 first and second year guys getting significant playing time.

 

Sammy's option was for 13.2 that's an expensive WR it would have made him the 6th highest paid wide out in the league. Your argument is that a developmental team pays an under preforming WR that much? Seems the opposite is true, they realize they will be moving on and get a draft pick which they can use to draft a rookie to develop . 

 

Star's salary is in fact the going rate for that role. It's also not big money compared to salary cap space we have in up coming years. His role is also to free up opportunities for your LBs.  Seems like a team who is trying to develop some LBs might value such a role.

 

Rarely do stop gap QBs keep the rookie off the field for long. The plan was always to give Allen some time, but not to keep him off the field all season. I don't think they expected AJ to play like Drew Brese  or Alex Smith. Peterman, Allen and AJ is a QB room that screams developmental year, no matter which one is starting. 

 

Has everything to do with Whaley  Tyrod, Cordy, and Darius were all his contracts and those players were not going to be part of a long term solution. Restructuring Wood was done to open up some cap space because whaley sent the team into the off-season with 24 Mil in cap space and tons of players with contracts that were up. Lots of holes to fill little money. Solving the cap conundrum by eating dead cap again is a developmental move. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Batman1876

[NewEra]

21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Keeping a two year Cost Controlled WR Contract that was the TOP WR in College his draft year for more than two weeks over Kerley (that aging vet).

Starting your Rookie QB from jump instead of force feeding a bad 5th round pick the position

Keeping a Reilly or Phillips on the roster over a ST only player in Holmes

NOT Signing Big money contracts to players that will not be here when they are good using up vital cap space

 

That is just THIS Offseason.

 

But I know the CoTP will tell me I am wrong

 

Ok then they CHOSE the CAP Problems, kinda hard to use that as an excuse then right? 

They chose the cap problems for one season.  This season.  

 

Use the cap problems as an excuse for what?  For being bad?  In season one, they ended the playoff drought.  That bought them the time they needed to rebuild.  Taking one step backwards in order to take 2 steps forward is a saying because it can be true in many aspects of life,  this is an example.  Again.  It’s obvious.  It’s not an excuse.  It just is what it is.  Next year, we’ll have cap room, lots of high picks and won’t have to trade up like this past year in order to acquire our QBs. We have the QBs. We’ll be spending our resources on OL, WR and CB.  Lots of cap room and picks should do the trick. Spending it on the right guys is the key.  

 

 

For the record.  I’m not a fan of the Star signing or the KB trade ( I detest KB), I would’ve rather resigned EJ Gaines instead of Vontae.  Philip Gaines is a bum.  As is Andre Holmes and the rest of the OL minus Dawkins.  Not every move is going to be a winning move,  every GM makes mistakes.  I just think whining and crying in week 2 of rebuild is a waste of time and blood pressure.  

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I think you can fairly criticize the current regime for some of these.  Gaines now looks like a bad move considering the cowardly thing Davis just did.  And I said yesterday I was puzzled by the Kerley thing.  Others you can't be as critical of.  I don't think Woods was going to sign in free agency; the fact that they never made a serious move to sign him was a signal to me that they knew Woods  wanted to move along.  And Goodwin?  Sorry, but that's revisionist history.  He could not stay on the field here.  And then guys like Gilmore were really Whaley's issue before the current regime could do much. 

 

Looking at all the moves I would like to have Gaines still here.  Maybe Darby.  I might have looked at other assets to trade Cincy other than Glenn, but then again they needed O line help and Glenn was hurt essentially all last season, with a big cap hit to boot.  I don't think I would have given a third for Benjaming given his nonchalance lately; I always liked Sammy and would have liked to see him stay but he had his own issues as well.  And Dareus I can't blame them for at all; so many coaches, Kyle, etc. could not get through to the kid.  I would have looked for an edge rusher elsewhere and not given Murphy a contract even though it's a very temporary hit.

 

So some of the moves they've made to stay competitive this year haven't panned out as well as they'd like, and that's on them.  Going forward, they have to make sure they draft well (they did this year) and pick the right FAs.

Regarding Woods, I don't think they seriously looked at retaining him.  I think they felt he was "JAG" and not worth the high-#2 money he wanted so "bye 'felicia!"

Goodwin was on the field for 15 of 16 games for the Bills in 2016 after he put his Olympic dreams to rest so the revisionism is the "could not stay on the field here".   

 

My point is exactly to your last - they have made moves in the last two years, and not a few of them, that have not panned out and are directly linked to the sorry state the team is now in.  They have also prioritized in an odd way for a team intending to draft a prized new future QB. 

 

Now maybe they learned something, and will do better going forward - I certainly hope so.  But I'm not buying the current narrative that they intended the team to be embarrassingly bad bottom-scrapers and made moves to assure that.  I think they honestly believed Benjamin + Zay Jones + Jordan Matthews >> Watkins + Woods + Goodwin and they laid an egg that we're scrambling to poach thereby.  I also think they honestly believed that Ducasse + Bodine + Newhouse would be adequate talent additions to bolster the line from losing 'Cog + Wood + Glenn, and were again mistaken.  Ditto on signing Vontae instead of resigning EJ Gaines.  I think that was a choice that actually reflects a pattern in Beane's mindset - he likes to go for the gusto with low floor/high payoff choices

 

I think their talent evaluation to date has shown serious gaps and flaws.  Now every GM in the league makes mistakes and mistaken decisions, and new FO peeps coming in also have to prioritize where they focus their evaluations, so don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to dump on McBeane for this per se.  I just don't buy the narrative that McBeane are innocent victims of cap hell and crap talent who had no choice but to embrace a year of bottom-mucking suckitude in favor of brighter days ahead.  They created the cap hell, they made some mistakes in evaluating talent, and they have to improve going forward for those brighter days to shine.  They may need some turnover in the pro-player scouting, for example, or in the pre-signing medical evaluation procedures.

 

If they self-evaluate and recognize this, good.  If they believe the PR fluffing about "have to endure this for brighter days ahead", the Bills outlook remains cloudy.

 

 

 

 

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Regarding Woods, I don't think they seriously looked at retaining him.  I think they felt he was "JAG" and not worth the high-#2 money he wanted so "bye 'felicia!"

Goodwin was on the field for 15 of 16 games for the Bills in 2016 after he put his Olympic dreams to rest so the revisionism is the "could not stay on the field here".   

 

My point is exactly to your last - they have made moves in the last two years, and not a few of them, that have not panned out and are directly linked to the sorry state the team is now in.  They have also prioritized in an odd way for a team intending to draft a prized new future QB. 

 

Now maybe they learned something, and will do better going forward - I certainly hope so.  But I'm not buying the current narrative that they intended the team to be embarrassingly bad bottom-scrapers and made moves to assure that.  I think they honestly believed Benjamin + Zay Jones + Jordan Matthews >> Watkins + Woods + Goodwin and they laid an egg that we're scrambling to poach thereby.  I also think they honestly believed that Ducasse + Bodine + Newhouse would be adequate talent additions to bolster the line from losing 'Cog + Wood + Glenn, and were again mistaken.  Ditto on signing Vontae instead of resigning EJ Gaines.  I think that was a choice that actually reflects a pattern in Beane's mindset - he likes to go for the gusto with low floor/high payoff choices

 

I think their talent evaluation to date has shown serious gaps and flaws.  Now every GM in the league makes mistakes and mistaken decisions, and new FO peeps coming in also have to prioritize where they focus their evaluations, so don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to dump on McBeane for this per se.  I just don't buy the narrative that McBeane are innocent victims of cap hell and crap talent who had no choice but to embrace a year of bottom-mucking suckitude in favor of brighter days ahead.  They created the cap hell, they made some mistakes in evaluating talent, and they have to improve going forward for those brighter days to shine.  They may need some turnover in the pro-player scouting, for example, or in the pre-signing medical evaluation procedures.

 

If they self-evaluate and recognize this, good.  If they believe the PR fluffing about "have to endure this for brighter days ahead", the Bills outlook remains cloudy.

 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Regarding Woods, I don't think they seriously looked at retaining him.  I think they felt he was "JAG" and not worth the high-#2 money he wanted so "bye 'felicia!"

Goodwin was on the field for 15 of 16 games for the Bills in 2016 after he put his Olympic dreams to rest so the revisionism is the "could not stay on the field here".   

 

My point is exactly to your last - they have made moves in the last two years, and not a few of them, that have not panned out and are directly linked to the sorry state the team is now in.  They have also prioritized in an odd way for a team intending to draft a prized new future QB. 

 

Now maybe they learned something, and will do better going forward - I certainly hope so.  But I'm not buying the current narrative that they intended the team to be embarrassingly bad bottom-scrapers and made moves to assure that.  I think they honestly believed Benjamin + Zay Jones + Jordan Matthews >> Watkins + Woods + Goodwin and they laid an egg that we're scrambling to poach thereby.  I also think they honestly believed that Ducasse + Bodine + Newhouse would be adequate talent additions to bolster the line from losing 'Cog + Wood + Glenn, and were again mistaken.  Ditto on signing Vontae instead of resigning EJ Gaines.  I think that was a choice that actually reflects a pattern in Beane's mindset - he likes to go for the gusto with low floor/high payoff choices

 

I think their talent evaluation to date has shown serious gaps and flaws.  Now every GM in the league makes mistakes and mistaken decisions, and new FO peeps coming in also have to prioritize where they focus their evaluations, so don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to dump on McBeane for this per se.  I just don't buy the narrative that McBeane are innocent victims of cap hell and crap talent who had no choice but to embrace a year of bottom-mucking suckitude in favor of brighter days ahead.  They created the cap hell, they made some mistakes in evaluating talent, and they have to improve going forward for those brighter days to shine.  They may need some turnover in the pro-player scouting, for example, or in the pre-signing medical evaluation procedures.

 

If they self-evaluate and recognize this, good.  If they believe the PR fluffing about "have to endure this for brighter days ahead", the Bills outlook remains cloudy.

 

 

 

 

His first draft for Beane looks good.  The one that was Whaley/McBeanwas pretty good.  They need to hit on better FA choices.

[Batman1876]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Regarding Woods, I don't think they seriously looked at retaining him.  I think they felt he was "JAG" and not worth the high-#2 money he wanted so "bye 'felicia!"

Goodwin was on the field for 15 of 16 games for the Bills in 2016 after he put his Olympic dreams to rest so the revisionism is the "could not stay on the field here".   

 

My point is exactly to your last - they have made moves in the last two years, and not a few of them, that have not panned out and are directly linked to the sorry state the team is now in.  They have also prioritized in an odd way for a team intending to draft a prized new future QB. 

 

Now maybe they learned something, and will do better going forward - I certainly hope so.  But I'm not buying the current narrative that they intended the team to be embarrassingly bad bottom-scrapers and made moves to assure that.  I think they honestly believed Benjamin + Zay Jones + Jordan Matthews >> Watkins + Woods + Goodwin and they laid an egg that we're scrambling to poach thereby.  I also think they honestly believed that Ducasse + Bodine + Newhouse would be adequate talent additions to bolster the line from losing 'Cog + Wood + Glenn, and were again mistaken.  Ditto on signing Vontae instead of resigning EJ Gaines.  I think that was a choice that actually reflects a pattern in Beane's mindset - he likes to go for the gusto with low floor/high payoff choices

 

I think their talent evaluation to date has shown serious gaps and flaws.  Now every GM in the league makes mistakes and mistaken decisions, and new FO peeps coming in also have to prioritize where they focus their evaluations, so don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to dump on McBeane for this per se.  I just don't buy the narrative that McBeane are innocent victims of cap hell and crap talent who had no choice but to embrace a year of bottom-mucking suckitude in favor of brighter days ahead.  They created the cap hell, they made some mistakes in evaluating talent, and they have to improve going forward for those brighter days to shine.  They may need some turnover in the pro-player scouting, for example, or in the pre-signing medical evaluation procedures.

 

If they self-evaluate and recognize this, good.  If they believe the PR fluffing about "have to endure this for brighter days ahead", the Bills outlook remains cloudy.

 

 

 

 

When woods and Goodwin needed to be resigned we had 24 million in cap space  and also needed to resign a bunch of other guys.  I think that factored in.  I also think they were in cap hell, they could have made better moves but the cap made that margin for error razor thin. 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

When woods and Goodwin needed to be resigned we had 24 million in cap space  and also needed to resign a bunch of other guys.  I think that factored in.  I also think they were in cap hell, they could have made better moves but the cap made that margin for error razor thin. 

Good point. Next year they have 80 million and not too many of our one to sign or are worth signing.  They have ammo then; let's see if they use it correctly.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

13 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Ha ha ha. 

So NOTHING to do with youth and rebuild like the new propaganda 

 

Again nothing to do with this experience Propaganda while career inactive McDermott get zero reps 

Value. But hey your right it isnt a youth movement just the latest spin after getting smoked week 1 

 

Star, Vonte, Woods Extension Murphy 

 

Woods? Who dat? 

 

Vonte was 1 yr deal

 

Trent is only his his 5th season. Could have 3-5 left easily. Star, 6th season could have 3 or 4 left, maybe more. 

 

Ill give you one more hard fact that points to me that they knew this this year would be rough, refusal to use 2019 draft capital for moves on Tremaine and Allen. 

 

 

[corta765]

3 hours ago, teef said:

same here.  what happens this season really doesn't phase me at all.  just let the young guys develop.

 

Yea. The only bummer is it just feels like your waiting another year already to care about W/Ls Playoffs etc...

[Peter]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Regarding Woods, I don't think they seriously looked at retaining him.  I think they felt he was "JAG" and not worth the high-#2 money he wanted so "bye 'felicia!"

Goodwin was on the field for 15 of 16 games for the Bills in 2016 after he put his Olympic dreams to rest so the revisionism is the "could not stay on the field here".   

 

My point is exactly to your last - they have made moves in the last two years, and not a few of them, that have not panned out and are directly linked to the sorry state the team is now in.  They have also prioritized in an odd way for a team intending to draft a prized new future QB. 

 

Now maybe they learned something, and will do better going forward - I certainly hope so.  But I'm not buying the current narrative that they intended the team to be embarrassingly bad bottom-scrapers and made moves to assure that.  I think they honestly believed Benjamin + Zay Jones + Jordan Matthews >> Watkins + Woods + Goodwin and they laid an egg that we're scrambling to poach thereby.  I also think they honestly believed that Ducasse + Bodine + Newhouse would be adequate talent additions to bolster the line from losing 'Cog + Wood + Glenn, and were again mistaken.  Ditto on signing Vontae instead of resigning EJ Gaines.  I think that was a choice that actually reflects a pattern in Beane's mindset - he likes to go for the gusto with low floor/high payoff choices

 

I think their talent evaluation to date has shown serious gaps and flaws.  Now every GM in the league makes mistakes and mistaken decisions, and new FO peeps coming in also have to prioritize where they focus their evaluations, so don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to dump on McBeane for this per se.  I just don't buy the narrative that McBeane are innocent victims of cap hell and crap talent who had no choice but to embrace a year of bottom-mucking suckitude in favor of brighter days ahead.  They created the cap hell, they made some mistakes in evaluating talent, and they have to improve going forward for those brighter days to shine.  They may need some turnover in the pro-player scouting, for example, or in the pre-signing medical evaluation procedures.

 

If they self-evaluate and recognize this, good.  If they believe the PR fluffing about "have to endure this for brighter days ahead", the Bills outlook remains cloudy.

 

 

 

 

 

This is well thought out.

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Good point. Next year they have 80 million and not too many of our one to sign or are worth signing.  They have ammo then; let's see if they use it correctly.

 

How many guys will McBeane have to overpay (read bad contracts) to attract talented players to a team that looks to be one of the worst in the league?

 

 

[reddogblitz]

11 hours ago, dabills21 said:

Past mismanagement of the team and what Beane/McDermott inherited all need to be taken into consideration 

 

the team was exactly .500 the 3 years before they got here and we did make the playoffs their first season.  Couldn't have been that bad.  the problem with the team when they got here was coaching, not talent.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

This is well thought out.

 

How many guys will McBeane have to overpay (read bad contracts) to attract talented players to a team that looks to be one of the worst in the league?

 

 

What happened with Cleveland?  They got a lot of guys.

 

Free agents go to teams for different reasons.  Most for money, some to say play with a young up and coming QB?  Regardless, my read on Beane and McD with regard to FA is that they will use the cap dollars they have to build in multiple areas, and not try to make just 2-3 huge signings.  Similar to the Hyde/Poyer type guys.  If they spend big, it might be on an OT or perhaps an edge rusher.  But I see maybe a half dozen or more free solid signings as opposed to the big splash types.

 

For the glamour positions, they'll build through the draft.  And if you look at the last two drafts you see a QB, MLB, CB, LT' slot CB, return guy/slot WR.    And please don'ts tart with the stuff about failures, etc. based on 1-2 games with the QB and MLB. 

 

They have gotten rid of guys that were cap problems and/or not earning their salary under the cap.  Doesn't mean they get off the hook for the atrocious two first halfs these first two games.  But we'll see.