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Greatest Show on Turf Comeback question


Virgil

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Pace was a big factor and Faulk was a stud. I remember fantasy football during those years and you’d see Warner, Faulk, and Bruce possibly go 1, 2, 3.  

 

I always think about what kids are bred for these days. I think more kids want to go lay defense or offensive weapons.  Offensive line prospects seem to have declined a lot in recent years.  Teams rely on chip blocks and quick passes to offset pressure vs holding down the fort.  

 

I remever sending 7 or 8 against 5 and those lines could hold their own 

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5 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Pace was a big factor and Faulk was a stud. I remember fantasy football during those years and you’d see Warner, Faulk, and Bruce possibly go 1, 2, 3.  

 

I always think about what kids are bred for these days. I think more kids want to go lay defense or offensive weapons.  Offensive line prospects seem to have declined a lot in recent years.  Teams rely on chip blocks and quick passes to offset pressure vs holding down the fort.  

 

I remever sending 7 or 8 against 5 and those lines could hold their own 

 

The two other factors in the decline of o-line play are:

 

- the prevalence of college offenses running spread principle zone read style schemes which don't require lineman to play in a 3 point stance almost at all;

- the CBA. More than almost any other unit on the football field offensive line play requires chemistry and cohesion that comes with practice. You simply are not allowed to practice as much these days.

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22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep - but that knock came later. His offense worked with the Greatest Show on turf those 3 years because it had Pace and some other guys who could play on the line. When Pace began to slow and others aged he was still trying to run that offense and Warner was getting smashed, resulting in his injury and losing the job to Bolger. Then when Martz moved on to Detroit and Chicago he was still trying to run that offense with sub standard lines. The difference between the Martz offense working and not working was Orlando Pace and his buddies on that original line in St Louis. 

Also his offence got more and more pass happy after vermeil retired and he became head coach  ..his offence was much more balanced during 1999 vs the other years .

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39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep - but that knock came later. His offense worked with the Greatest Show on turf those 3 years because it had Pace and some other guys who could play on the line. When Pace began to slow and others aged he was still trying to run that offense and Warner was getting smashed, resulting in his injury and losing the job to Bolger. Then when Martz moved on to Detroit and Chicago he was still trying to run that offense with sub standard lines. The difference between the Martz offense working and not working was Orlando Pace and his buddies on that original line in St Louis. 

 

In those Greatest Show 3 years, Martz absolutely took a pounding.  He had to, given the offense that had no max protection ever and he had his WR on intermediate to long routes on every play.  He had to wait, throw to the spot and accept the hit. 

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The power run is working now and will fade soon as the long ball opens. Defenses are so quick right now, too.  But as the ball goes deep so does the quick, dashing RB who can beat the big boys up front.

 

By 2021 we will see huge passing yards and break away runs.

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9 hours ago, MJS said:

Defensive lines are just so good and offensive lines are really struggling all around the league. I think that's why it is tough to have a vertical passing game like that, because the offensive lines can't hold up long enough.

 

there is no running game to keep the D guessing

 

used to be at least half the plays were run, with intent on building the ground game to open up the passing game

 

you could hide a bad QB with the run game, run it twice and drain 40 seconds off the clock each time, then punt and hope for field position

 

the run game has gone to dust like the low-post big man in the NBA

 

 

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Offensive line quality is certainly a problem, but the other factor is the emergence of pass rushing DTs.  Guys like Donald, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Suh, etc.

 

Edge rushers were at a premium and disrupting games, so teams transitioned to more of a quick hit passing game, and defenses have countered with inside guys who can get quicker pressure than a guy going around the edge.  Sure, in the greatest show on turf days you still had guys like Sapp or John Randle, but a lot of emphasis was on big 335 lbs run stuffing DTs over the smaller pass rushing DTs we are seeing now.  In response to this the new thing is the RPO wave, designed to freeze the pass rush a split second to get the ball out or to take a quick hitting run if that's what is open.

 

Besides, the Rams weren't bombing it down the field anyway.  I'm too lazy to look up average depth of target data, but I remember a lot of the Rams offense being quick hitting slants to Faulk, Az-Zahir Hakim, Holt & Bruce.  Once defenses would come up, that's when they hit you over the top.  The Pats beat them because they basically said "we are going to commit pass interference on every single play and dare the officials to call it, hit these guys constantly on short pass routes and not give up anything over the top".

 

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9 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Offensive line quality is certainly a problem, but the other factor is the emergence of pass rushing DTs.  Guys like Donald, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Suh, etc.

 

Edge rushers were at a premium and disrupting games, so teams transitioned to more of a quick hit passing game, and defenses have countered with inside guys who can get quicker pressure than a guy going around the edge.  Sure, in the greatest show on turf days you still had guys like Sapp or John Randle, but a lot of emphasis was on big 335 lbs run stuffing DTs over the smaller pass rushing DTs we are seeing now.  In response to this the new thing is the RPO wave, designed to freeze the pass rush a split second to get the ball out or to take a quick hitting run if that's what is open.

 

Besides, the Rams weren't bombing it down the field anyway.  I'm too lazy to look up average depth of target data, but I remember a lot of the Rams offense being quick hitting slants to Faulk, Az-Zahir Hakim, Holt & Bruce.  Once defenses would come up, that's when they hit you over the top.  The Pats beat them because they basically said "we are going to commit pass interference on every single play and dare the officials to call it, hit these guys constantly on short pass routes and not give up anything over the top".

 

The quickness of the RB is a big deal but the NFL needs to go back to finding the Fullback.  Teams are too scared to let the RB stay 8 yards off the LOS. This wasn't done to let the lead blocker make contact. It was to let the pocket and line determine the run.  The NFL is rampant with **** tier LB's and good DB's so that no one noticed the LB's blow.

 

If Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders or Ricky Waters were in the league today they'd be killing it.  Marshall Faulk, Thurman Thomas would be legends 

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1 hour ago, Virgil said:

Pace was a big factor and Faulk was a stud. I remember fantasy football during those years and you’d see Warner, Faulk, and Bruce possibly go 1, 2, 3.  

 

I always think about what kids are bred for these days. I think more kids want to go lay defense or offensive weapons.  Offensive line prospects seem to have declined a lot in recent years.  Teams rely on chip blocks and quick passes to offset pressure vs holding down the fort.  

 

I remever sending 7 or 8 against 5 and those lines could hold their own 

Pace was absolutely great. I'm not sure how much OL prospects have declined. Their priorities have changed.

 

It is much harder to pass block than to run block. On a run the OL knows the count. They fire out and attack. On pass plays they are backing up and getting hit. The fact that pass rushers are smaller and faster today make it necessary for blockers to be more agile. When our own Hughes is healthy, he is very hard to block and he is rather small by comparison.

 

It is extremely hard to find a 6'4/325 pound human who is agile and strong enough to protect the blind side of your 30 million dollar per year qb. The Bills, once again, need to pour big time resources into blocking. Imo the best way to do so is almost always the draft. Solid OL play changes the whole chemistry of the game. Less 3 and outs, which means more TOP, a rested defense, a better running game, and a healthier, more confident qb.

40 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

 

If Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders or Ricky Waters were in the league today they'd be killing it.  Marshall Faulk, Thurman Thomas would be legends 

I'm pretty sure they already are.

 

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11 hours ago, Virgil said:

Every few years we see a trend in offensive and defensive styles.  Sometimes we see things that revolutionize the NFL. The Patriots did it a few years ago with their screen heavy offense and the Rams blew the league up with the greatest show on turf.  Unless I’m wrong, it wasn’t until the Pats busted out the Tampa Cover 2 did that offense get neutralized and slowly fade out.  

 

As I’m watching more and more of these current elite defenses, I’m seeing way more single safeties deep.  Sometimes more drop back into coverage, but you don’t get the same deep coverage back peddling as you do keeping the play in front of you.  

 

With that being said, I wonder if we start to see teams go back to a stretch the field offense like the Rams ran.  

 

I’m sure there’s a ton of things wrong with what I just said, but whatever

 

Mike Martz.  Ah.  Mad Mike.  BTST, know friends of his and some of his coaches. 

 

You need 3 things to run a Greatest Show on Turf type attack.

1) an all-star pass-blocking OL.  the Rams had that.  Check. 

2) a mobile QB who can slide around in the pocket and take the best advantage of that pass-blocking OL.  Check.

3) all-star WR who can stretch the field and who never give up on routes.  Check

4) sound run game, too - yeah, that gets overlooked, but Marshall Faulk came into the league in 1999 and was a big part of what made it click.  you couldn't just be "oh yeah, they'll pass" or Faulk would gash you

 

Even so, its Achilles heel is that it's very tough on the QB.  Despite the all-star OL, Warner was sacked 38 times in 2001 and that's not because he's a statue or immobile.

 

Successors to the Greatest Show on Turf are around.  Atlanta in 2016 under Shanahan was its clear descendant IMO.  Ryan was sacked 37 times, and he's got pocket sense.  Green Bay around its Superbowl win years.  Rodgers was sacked 36 times in 2011 and again, he's far from an immobile statue.   Philbin is back with GB btw, so we'll see where they go.

 

Martz tried to run a Greatest Show on Turf in Detroit, then SF, then Chicago, and it flamed out each time because he didn't have one or more of the top-notch pieces.  Heck, he couldn't sustain it in St Louis, but it really got ugly when he left town.  Detroit.  Jon Kitna took 63 sacks.  Sixty Three.  51 the next year.  In SF, 55 split between 2 QB.  Chicago, Smokin' Jay took 52.  That's not because these guys totally can't play, it's demanded by the offense to extend plays.

 

Anyway, I think you have a point that the D's lend themselves to a GSOT type exploitation, but Martz I think deep down, thought Kurt Warner was the Man Off the Street and he could run his offense with just about anyone.  He couldn't.  You need to have a QB with elite pocket-sense and mobility (not a running QB) behind a great OL, or the QB is just gonna take a hideous beating and the O won't work as it should.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

4) sound run game, too - yeah, that gets overlooked, but Marshall Faulk came into the league in 1999 and was a big part of what made it click.  you couldn't just be "oh yeah, they'll pass" or Faulk would gash you

 

Came to the Rams..... He came into the league earlier with Indi.

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3 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Offensive line quality is certainly a problem, but the other factor is the emergence of pass rushing DTs.  Guys like Donald, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Suh, etc.

 

Edge rushers were at a premium and disrupting games, so teams transitioned to more of a quick hit passing game, and defenses have countered with inside guys who can get quicker pressure than a guy going around the edge.  Sure, in the greatest show on turf days you still had guys like Sapp or John Randle, but a lot of emphasis was on big 335 lbs run stuffing DTs over the smaller pass rushing DTs we are seeing now.  In response to this the new thing is the RPO wave, designed to freeze the pass rush a split second to get the ball out or to take a quick hitting run if that's what is open.

 

Besides, the Rams weren't bombing it down the field anyway.  I'm too lazy to look up average depth of target data, but I remember a lot of the Rams offense being quick hitting slants to Faulk, Az-Zahir Hakim, Holt & Bruce.  Once defenses would come up, that's when they hit you over the top.  The Pats beat them because they basically said "we are going to commit pass interference on every single play and dare the officials to call it, hit these guys constantly on short pass routes and not give up anything over the top".

 

 

The only quick passes they did were to Faulk or whoever their KR burner was. Bruce and Holt ran deep or deep crossing routes.  Hence why the cover 2 neutralized it, the safeties didn’t allow the deep underneath route. 

 

I would be curious to look up the average pass distance in the air to WR

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3 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Offensive line quality is certainly a problem, but the other factor is the emergence of pass rushing DTs.  Guys like Donald, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Suh, etc.

 

Edge rushers were at a premium and disrupting games, so teams transitioned to more of a quick hit passing game, and defenses have countered with inside guys who can get quicker pressure than a guy going around the edge.  Sure, in the greatest show on turf days you still had guys like Sapp or John Randle, but a lot of emphasis was on big 335 lbs run stuffing DTs over the smaller pass rushing DTs we are seeing now.  In response to this the new thing is the RPO wave, designed to freeze the pass rush a split second to get the ball out or to take a quick hitting run if that's what is open.

 

Besides, the Rams weren't bombing it down the field anyway.  I'm too lazy to look up average depth of target data, but I remember a lot of the Rams offense being quick hitting slants to Faulk, Az-Zahir Hakim, Holt & Bruce.  Once defenses would come up, that's when they hit you over the top.  The Pats beat them because they basically said "we are going to commit pass interference on every single play and dare the officials to call it, hit these guys constantly on short pass routes and not give up anything over the top".

 

 

Considering Warner hung 365 yds on NE (big yardage for that time) and 64% completions, I think that might be revisionist memory on the PI.  STL also managed a 30% advantage in TOP which given how poorly they ran, would be hard to manage if they were getting shut down by uncalled PI.

Primary factors in NE win were successfully picking Warner 2x - once for a pick-6 and once when they were deep in NE territory - and successfully shutting down Marshall Faulk or persuading Martz to move away from the run. 

 

However, there are people here, and when I say people I mean people involved in that game, who remain convinced that NE skullduggery was involved.  One factor in the Eagles SB success was probably Pederson anticipating the latter and planning around it (eg Philly Special practiced only in hotel meeting room by walkthrough).

23 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

The only quick passes they did were to Faulk or whoever their KR burner was. Bruce and Holt ran deep or deep crossing routes.  Hence why the cover 2 neutralized it, the safeties didn’t allow the deep underneath route. 

 

I would be curious to look up the average pass distance in the air to WR

 

I can't find an air yards stat that far back, but from watching, Warner did both.  His Arena League background made him the master of the quick hit, but Martz offense also relied upon the ability to extend plays while guys got open deep.  I'm not so sure the cover 2 is the great neutralizing factor; the main thing is even when you have an elusive QB with great pocket presence, the scheme required him to hold the ball while the downfield receivers got open.  Rodgers does the same thing.

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I think it would be good for the NFL if 5 or 6 teams actually came out as big ground and pound style teams and were successful.  I miss the 90’s NFL where you had some ground and pound like KC, some west coast like SF, a couple of Run and Shoot teams, like Houston, and then you had the dynamic Bills and Cowboys.  

 

I remembervas a Chiefs fan, part of the week leading up to a game was talking about adjusting to the different style of offense you were facing in a given week.  There was a lot of variety.  Now teams either run a spread or some variation of a pass heavy west coast.  

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