QBs can develop while getting smashed

[Batman1876]

30 minutes ago, scribo said:

The QBs I mentioned didn't have much of a rushing attack to lean on in their rookie seasons. I don't see stats to back up your claim that the QBs I used as examples had it easy because of a different type of game back then.

 

Favre - Their star back was Vince Workman, who rushed 159 times for 631 yards.

Troy - Their top guy was Paul Palmer, who rushed 112 times for 446 yards on the season.

Elway - Sammy Winder, 196 for 757

Manning - OK, he had Marshall Faulk, who went 324 for 1,319 yards. But Manning was the second leading rusher on the team with 62 yards.

Young - James Wilder, 65 for 1,300. Young was second on that team with 233 yards.

Kelly - Greg Bell with 223 carries for 883 yards.

James wilder went 1300 on 65 carries. Dude was a beast 20 YPC. Unbelievable dude should be in the hall. 

[scribo]

14 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

stats don't mean anything 20 years later for direct comparison in any sport

 

Steve Young played almost 2 full seasons in the USFL before his "rookie" NFL season

 

and sorry Peterman, YOU AREN"T MEASURING UP TO HALL OF FAME QBs..... 

 

the game has changed COMPLETELY since those QBs were in town.... sorry you missed it due to age or you've forgotten how it was back then...

 

 

I don't know who you're talking to. First, I am not in support of Peterman playing for the Bills again. I am saying that we shouldn't be worried about playing Allen, trying to protect him. Throw him in there, let him learn under fire. By the way, I remember well most of the seasons I wrote about. The stats show you're wrong, plain and simple. Don't be a jerk.

Edited September 10, 2018 by scribo

[MJS]

Steve Young is kind of an anomaly. He was a very late bloomer. He wasn't good until he had many NFL seasons under his belt. He had a lot of growing pains.

[scribo]

3 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

James wilder went 1300 on 65 carries. Dude was a beast 20 YPC. Unbelievable dude should be in the hall. 

365 carries

[Batman1876]

Just now, scribo said:

365 carries

Oh, I have to go cancel my jersey order. 

[scribo]

Just now, MJS said:

Steve Young is kind of an anomaly. He was a very late bloomer. He wasn't good until he had many NFL seasons under his belt. He had a lot of growing pains.

Agreed. But I think be belongs on this list because he got beat down game after game for two and half years in the NFL and still eventually became one of the all-time greats.

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, scribo said:

Looked at the past several QBs to be inducted in the Hall of Fame. Stunning how rough many started off in their development. The point is that one does not need to sit on the bench, waiting for a decent team be built around him, to start developing under fire.

 

Brett Favre -  Drafted by Atlanta, his first pass in an NFL regular season game resulted in an interception returned for a touchdown. He was 1 for 4 with 0 TDs, 2 INTs and sacked once. Once he got to Green Bay, the Packers were blown out in his first game. He had an up and down season that ended at .500.

 

Troy Aikman - In his first regular season game (Week 1, 1989), the future Super Bowl MVP went 17 of 35  with no TDs, two INTs, sacked twice and a passer rating of 40.2. He got beat around all season. He even missed five games with a broken finger. He finished the season with nine touchdowns against 18 interceptions while averaging just 5.9 yards per pass. And the Cowboys finished 1-15.

 

John Elway - He lit it up in his first action, a Week 1 start in 1983. He went 1 of 8 for 14 yards, 0 TDs, a interception, four sacks and a passer rating of 0. He didn't finish the game because of an elbow injury. He did finish his second start, going 9 of 21 for 106 yards, 0 TDs and three sacks. His rookie season saw a 7:14 TD-to-INT ratio and 28 sacks in 11 games. And he had a losing record.

 

Peyton Manning - His Week 1 was in 1998; 21 of 37 with one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks and a passer rating of 58.6. He led the Colts to a stellar 3-13 record.

 

Steve Young won three of his first 19 games with the Bucs. He did just fine once traded, of course, but getting beat down with growing up didn't hurt his long-term career.

 

Of course, our own Bills finished 4-12 with Jim Kelly in his rookie year.

 

Does this apply to just one of our QBs?

[Prickly Pete]

I luv Allen, but it needs to be said, he has to develop some touch on his passes.

I'm wondering if maybe a big part of why his comp.% was so low is because he throws such a hard ball to catch.

Maybe if he let a little air out of the ball to soften it up? ?

[scribo]

Just now, BullBuchanan said:

Does this apply to just one of our QBs?

Too early to tell. The only way to find out is to let Allen play. I guess the same could be said for Peterman, but I think it is clear Allen has elite talent. Don't keep him on the sidelines just because the rest of the team is bad.

 

Just now, OJ Tom said:

I luv Allen, but it needs to be said, he has to develop some touch on his passes.

I'm wondering if maybe a big part of why his comp.% was so low is because he throws such a hard ball to catch.

Maybe if he let a little air out of the ball to soften it up? ?

They used to say the same about Elway. He went to become a Super Bowl MVP.

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

42 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Below is a chart of listing a subset of 1st round QBs first two years in the league, and the amount of times they were sacked in their so called "developmental years"  (2004-2013.)  I also included David Carr because he has become the poster boy for the argument "Quarterbacks who get hit a lot dont succeed."  Note, I did not include quarterbacks drafted since 2014 as I think it's too early to say they were a success or not.  I have always been of the mind that QBs don't necessarily "develop" just get somewhat better from their baseline coming out of college.  Personally feel like the good ones were already destined to be good the second they stepped on the field, regardless of how many times they got hit, unless said hit ended their career completely. 

 

Player	GMS	Sack	Sack Per Game
David Carr	27	91	3.37037037
Ryan Tannehill	32	93	2.90625
Alex Smith	23	64	2.782608696
Brandon Weeden	20	55	2.75
Jake Locker	11	30	2.727272727
Sam Bradford	26	70	2.692307692
Aaron Rodgers	32	84	2.625
Blaine Gabbert	24	62	2.583333333
EJ Manuel	16	40	2.5
Robert Griffin III	28	68	2.428571429
Christian Ponder	26	62	2.384615385
Andrew Luck	32	73	2.28125
Cam Newton	32	71	2.21875
Matthew Stafford	13	28	2.153846154
Joe Flacco	32	68	2.125
Ben Roethlisberger	25	53	2.12
Eli Manning	23	41	1.782608696
Mark Sanchez	31	53	1.709677419
Philip Rivers	18	30	1.666666667
Jason Campbell	20	28	1.4
Matt Ryan	30	36	1.2

 

Behind this OL, Allen could break Carr's record.  He'll get sacked 4 times a game at least. And I thought Carr was a piñata.  Viva la Allen!

[2003Contenders]

I know it has been 20 years, but the model I like is the one that the Colts used for Peyton Manning back in 1998. They basically went mass-protection with 2 TEs most of the time with just a young Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk as the primary weapons. The offense was simplified, and the Colts avoided having Manning get hammered (and lose his confidence). I would do the same with Allen. Spoon feed him and protect him -- all the while being patient. Then expand the playbook as he develops and builds his confidence.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

back then the NFL had a RUNNING GAME that ate up at the MAJORITY of the plays on O

 

today the running game is diminished and it's all on the QB 75%+ every game

 

this is total murder to a QB that isn't ready

 

 

 

 

20 years ago you would develop a QB by handing off to Shady the first two downs and a bogus incomplete pass on 3rd down and nobody would care

 

That is exactly how we developed Trent and EJ and TT ?

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Good is good. 

 

And players that are good usually start showing they're good right away. 

 

Yes, Drew Brees came on like wild fire back in 2003/2004, or Alex Smith got better throughout his career. 

 

But most QBs start to show early on whether they have it or they don't. 

  

Bills fans made the same excuses about Trent Edwards for years - the line isn't good enough, the WRs aren't good enough, Jauron is telling him not to throw interceptions. In the end he never resurfaced in the NFL because he sucked. Same with JP Losman or EJ Manuel. 

 

We missed on Derek Carr and Teddy Bridgewater because in 2014 our Front Office was still trying to rescue EJ Manuel. 

 

Bridgewater is a FA next year.   Perhaps start Allen this year, and go after Teddy in FA if not enough development.  

6 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

I know it has been 20 years, but the model I like is the one that the Colts used for Peyton Manning back in 1998. They basically went mass-protection with 2 TEs most of the time with just a young Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk as the primary weapons. The offense was simplified, and the Colts avoided having Manning get hammered (and lose his confidence). I would do the same with Allen. Spoon feed him and protect him -- all the while being patient. Then expand the playbook as he develops and builds his confidence.

 

I like the idea, but we do not have a Marvin Harrison.   We could go max protect, but we need a WR outlet.  Perhaps put Shady or Murphy out wide?  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

back then the NFL had a RUNNING GAME that ate up at the MAJORITY of the plays on O

 

today the running game is diminished and it's all on the QB 75%+ every game

 

this is total murder to a QB that isn't ready

 

 

 

 

20 years ago you would develop a QB by handing off to Shady the first two downs and a bogus incomplete pass on 3rd down and nobody would care

 

Not true.

[Prickly Pete]

18 minutes ago, scribo said:

 

They used to say the same about Elway. He went to become a Super Bowl MVP.

I'm aware of that. But that doesn't mean it will work for every guy, or that it wouldn't benefit him to have better touch, no?

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, scribo said:

Looked at the past several QBs to be inducted in the Hall of Fame. Stunning how rough many started off in their development. The point is that one does not need to sit on the bench, waiting for a decent team be built around him, to start developing under fire.

 

Brett Favre -  Drafted by Atlanta, his first pass in an NFL regular season game resulted in an interception returned for a touchdown. He was 1 for 4 with 0 TDs, 2 INTs and sacked once. Once he got to Green Bay, the Packers were blown out in his first game. He had an up and down season that ended at .500.

 

Troy Aikman - In his first regular season game (Week 1, 1989), the future Super Bowl MVP went 17 of 35  with no TDs, two INTs, sacked twice and a passer rating of 40.2. He got beat around all season. He even missed five games with a broken finger. He finished the season with nine touchdowns against 18 interceptions while averaging just 5.9 yards per pass. And the Cowboys finished 1-15.

 

John Elway - He lit it up in his first action, a Week 1 start in 1983. He went 1 of 8 for 14 yards, 0 TDs, a interception, four sacks and a passer rating of 0. He didn't finish the game because of an elbow injury. He did finish his second start, going 9 of 21 for 106 yards, 0 TDs and three sacks. His rookie season saw a 7:14 TD-to-INT ratio and 28 sacks in 11 games. And he had a losing record.

 

Peyton Manning - His Week 1 was in 1998; 21 of 37 with one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks and a passer rating of 58.6. He led the Colts to a stellar 3-13 record.

 

Steve Young won three of his first 19 games with the Bucs. He did just fine once traded, of course, but getting beat down with growing up didn't hurt his long-term career.

 

Of course, our own Bills finished 4-12 with Jim Kelly in his rookie year.

 

 

 

What you've proved here isn't that quarterbacks can develop while getting smashed.

 

Oh, and Favre is a counter-example. He's a great example of a QB who developed sitting on the bench learning from film. He spent his whole rookie year on the bench. Steve Young's career also runs counter to what you're saying. He spent his first year and then eleven weeks of his second year on the bench. Then he played solidly for a year and a half and was so awful that they let him go. Only after sitting a ton behind Montana being developed well and correctly did he become the Steve Young we know today.

 

What your evidence shows is that SOME quarterbacks can develop while getting smashed. All of the guys you reference here were considered NFL-ready coming out except for maybe Favre.

 

And there are tons of examples of guys who were smashed and didn't develop. Trent Edwards is not the least of these examples. Remember when he DIDN'T look like Captain Checkdown? David Carr is the most obvious but there are a ton more.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Formerly Allan in MD]

33 minutes ago, MJS said:

Steve Young is kind of an anomaly. He was a very late bloomer. He wasn't good until he had many NFL seasons under his belt. He had a lot of growing pains.

Young was a late bloomer primarily because he sat on the bench a fairly long time before he got his chance.

[scribo]

Just now, OJ Tom said:

I'm aware of that. But that doesn't mean it will work for every guy, or that it wouldn't benefit him to have better touch, no?

I agree, he needs better touch. But there are times where a fastball is just what's needed, such as the bullet dropped by Benjamin in the endzone yesterday.

[Nanker]

“QBs can develop while getting smashed”? Of course, just look at Jay Cutler. 

[Thurman#1]

12 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

I know it has been 20 years, but the model I like is the one that the Colts used for Peyton Manning back in 1998. They basically went mass-protection with 2 TEs most of the time with just a young Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk as the primary weapons. The offense was simplified, and the Colts avoided having Manning get hammered (and lose his confidence). I would do the same with Allen. Spoon feed him and protect him -- all the while being patient. Then expand the playbook as he develops and builds his confidence.

 

 

Fair enough about your plan. But Peyton Manning coming out of college was widely considered one of the most NFL-ready QBs of all time. Josh Allen not so much.

 

He may possibly be ready but the evidence certainly isn't convincing.