This Was Always a Quiet Rebuild

[Sky Diver]

3 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I think I would be ok with a total collapse this year, but knowing the Bills could possibly have TWO QB's they can win with as they improve the roster around them.

 

If the Bills start out badly, I would be open to trading McCoy and/or Clay for draft picks, but the cap may not allow that to happen.

 

McCoy and Clay can't have much value. Especially Clay.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

If the Bills don't low ball Richie on his contract, is it possible that he doesn't go nuts?

Erm...I think it's pretty clear at this point Incognito was off long before he ever sniffed a piece of Bills stationary.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

stupid it may be but it is what happens.  New coaches want their own players.  They keep the guys that they feel are the best of the best and replace the others.  

 

Some  coaches feel if they have to "motivate" a player then the player isn't right int he head.  Every player should be motivated by themselves to be the best  that they can.

 

Sure we lost talent, many people said were no good.   Sammy was so good he spent a year in LA and is now in KC all the while Robert Woods is still there.  

Tyrod should have been gone last season and then we really would have sucked and gotten another top round pick w/o having to trade down to 7th or lower. 

somehow I knew that to be part of your argument.  

 

It wasn't HATE,  we saw he wan't the answer.  

As a 3rd and 4th alternate and the guy who was "begging" for votes last season.  

 

I never hated Marino, feared him yes.  Hate, never?   

 

why, because he wasn't a whiny little b word like Brady

I hope you’re not trying to pin me as a Tyrod guy because I was ready to move on from him 2 years ago.  But even then, I recognized him as a lower level Alex Smith type qb and you could do a lot worse.  There’s some BS narrative that AJ and Nate Peterman are easily upgrades over Tyrod and there is zero evidence of this.

 

My main issue is we have a first time, defensive minded head coach running our team.  I’m willing to trust them on offense, but their offensive moves have been awful.  Obviously, it all rests on Allen but there’s some BS going on that he has no help.  Well that’s because this regime has done a terrible job on the offensive side of the ball.  They admitted they didn’t even talk to Sammy’s agent before the trade.  I’d feel better about Allen if he had Sammy to throw to.  

6 minutes ago, Figster said:

Crazy Richie might strike some fear into his fellow Oline when it comes to protecting the QB.

I think RI could murder someone and some fans will still want him back and make excuses for him. It’s embarrassing.  

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Shotgunner said:

I think anyone paying attention knows this has been a rebuild. 

 

Playoffs last year was a shocker for everyone.

 

I'm still trustin' the process.

Agree. The process takes 2-3 years to establish a foundation. I think we have 2 solid qbs to build around. Do what Dallas did in the 90's and build an amazing Oline around Josh. Probably Shady & Kyle's last year. Draft or sign a good RB ro pair with Murphy. Get Josh more wr toys. And whatever picks and fa money left go to D. Not only must we "Trust the process" but never rush the process no matter how anxious we are to win. We're on the right track!

[Figster]

31 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I hope you’re not trying to pin me as a Tyrod guy because I was ready to move on from him 2 years ago.  But even then, I recognized him as a lower level Alex Smith type qb and you could do a lot worse.  There’s some BS narrative that AJ and Nate Peterman are easily upgrades over Tyrod and there is zero evidence of this.

 

My main issue is we have a first time, defensive minded head coach running our team.  I’m willing to trust them on offense, but their offensive moves have been awful.  Obviously, it all rests on Allen but there’s some BS going on that he has no help.  Well that’s because this regime has done a terrible job on the offensive side of the ball.  They admitted they didn’t even talk to Sammy’s agent before the trade.  I’d feel better about Allen if he had Sammy to throw to.  

I think RI could murder someone and some fans will still want him back and make excuses for him. It’s embarrassing.  

If RI makes the Oline better without disrupting team chemistry,

 

call me embarrassing, (it wouldn't be the 1st time)

[Mango]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

But we never got the franchise QB.  We traded franchise QB assets to get a WR for EJ Manuel.  

 

Can we admit there were major flaws in the Hackett/Marrone offense, that made it slightly more difficult to accurately grade EJ. While also saying that’s EJ was not a good QB? 

 

It doesn’t need to be a pie, it’s not mutually exclusive. Just because EJ was 80% terrible, doesn’t mean that Hacket & co. Were only 20% terrible on that side of the ball. 

[CommonCents]

1 hour ago, Meazy26 said:

I’m a bit concerned about the returns on our FA signings this year... 

 

Star looks average, totally not worth 10mil per, IMO.

 

Trent Murphy is made of glass.

 

A.J. McCarron is a waste of 5mil as the 3rd QB.

 

Vontae Davis is washed. 

 

In total you’re looking at over 20mil on the cap this year between those four... Of course this is all knee-jerk thoughts based on pre-season, but I honestly wish we had a mulligan on how we spent our money this offseason. 

I’m still surprised that they couldn’t get out of the way of that train named Star. Everyone saw that coming a year in advance, some liked it (probably because the name recognition) others kept talking about how bad he was. Hopefully he can turn it around once the season starts.

 

None of the other contracts mentioned have much impact past this season.

[RyanC883]

Getting Allen and Edmunds will be huge.  If we have young and cheap solid QB and MLB play, you can generally fill-in around those guys.  Need to find competent (not even all-pro) OL help, pass rush help and this team is looking at 10+ wins a year.  Find a Bell or AB, and your looking at a continual SB contender.  

1 hour ago, Meazy26 said:

I’m a bit concerned about the returns on our FA signings this year... 

 

Star looks average, totally not worth 10mil per, IMO.

 

Trent Murphy is made of glass.

 

A.J. McCarron is a waste of 5mil as the 3rd QB.

 

Vontae Davis is washed. 

 

In total you’re looking at over 20mil on the cap this year between those four... Of course this is all knee-jerk thoughts based on pre-season, but I honestly wish we had a mulligan on how we spent our money this offseason. 

 

Yeah, but luckly: (1) last years FA haul was impressive and landed us the best safety combo in the league; (2) Davis is a decent backup, and I think Phillips was a FA add; and finally (3) I think we can get out of most of the contracts. Hopefully cut or restructure Star, who looks bad, esp. like you said, at 10mill/year.  

 

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

I’m still surprised that they couldn’t get out of the way of that train named Star. Everyone saw that coming a year in advance, some liked it (probably because the name recognition) others kept talking about how bad he was. Hopefully he can turn it around once the season starts.

 

None of the other contracts mentioned have much impact past this season.

 

Agreed on Starr. Waiting for real bullets to ply, but right now looks more of the same, just not living up to the hype. 

 

Correct, salary issues not a big deal moving forward, but we have more holes to fill. It’s just very frustrating from my perspective. Feels like we have WAY more than a single off seasons void of talent in 2018. I mean literally almost an entire OL. Either a major upgrade at RDE or DT (pass rush or run stop).  WR1, 2/3 (wherever Zay doesn’t fit if not both) One of SLW or WLB (I have moments where I like Dimarco a lot, but possibly both). CB 2 and 3, we’ve got nobody here. Plus depth at basically every single position. 

 

Feels vary daunting. 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, njbuff said:

I think I would be ok with a total collapse this year, but knowing the Bills could possibly have TWO QB's they can win with as they improve the roster around them.

 

If the Bills start out badly, I would be open to trading McCoy and/or Clay for draft picks, but the cap may not allow that to happen.

 

Going off memory here.

 

i can’t think of a franchise that went from playoffs, to terrible, to consistently good (barring injury), under the same regime. Maybe Carolina? Indy, but Andrew Luck and Payton went down. I guess we’ll watch the Giants this year, but new regime. 

[Fadingpain]

There was nothing quiet about this rebuild!  It was pretty damned loud, for anyone listening.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Darby- Strip steak. Not filet, but a good piece of meat and not cube steak. could be pricey down the line but we got it on sale with our EBT card.

 

Preston Brown- sliced honey baked turkey. Sure not your go to protein, but better than most deli meats. A reliable lunch product. 

 

Glenn- wheat bread. Expensive for bread. We don’t eat it much, but wish we did consume more because we know it’s good for us. Expensive to replace too.

 

Dareus- A piece of your wedding cake. Sure it’s not as good as the day you got married, but now you have to go out and buy another one so your wife doesn’t find out you tossed it. Now we’ve paid twice for it and have to look the wife in the eye and pretend it’s the same one, even though you both know it’s not. 

Regardless of whether I agree with you....love the analogy

 

Darby - White has more then replaced him.....I actually dont worry about corners too much (even though I hated how wide open receivers were in the Bengals game) when it comes to McD......he knows corners and we always seem to find good ones.....we own White on a rookie deal for years

 

Preston Brown.....a solid MLB who didnt fit McD's defense....he CANNOT COVER.....we are biulding the panthers defense where LB's are required to cover ppl and stay on the field in obvious passing downs....Edmunds is getting better every week and we own him on a rookie deal for years

 

Glenn.....underrated when healthy...the problem is he had a lower body injury and they needed to move him while they could use it to aquire draft capital.....which turned into Josh Allen.....finding a franchise QB is the mission now...that and this slow rebiuld.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

There was nothing quiet about this rebuild!  It was pretty damned loud, for anyone listening.

 

 

Its quiet because we made the playoffs.  Not too many teams make the playoffs in a rebiuld

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I just love the narrative that a team that averaged 8 wins in the previous regime needed a rebuild. 

 

A team that is up against the salary cap and only averaging 8 wins is more in need of a rebuild than anyone. That's actually an even worse case than, for example, your long term franchise QB retiring. We were spending a ton of money and going nowhere fast. It was a 2 step rebuild. Step 1 was clearing the team of dead weight. Step 2 begins this year. This is year 1 of what most people would consider a traditional rebuild.

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

This.

 

I said this last year. They rid themselves of good players for the sake of them having nothing to do with those players and wanting to bring in their own guys. Just because Whaley drafted them doesn't mean they suck and it was the right move to get rid of them.

 

 

I'm genuinely curious Scott. Do you think when Beane and McDermott came in together they had their first meeting and decided they needed to get rid of all of Whaley's players no matter what? Do you think they ignored the salary cap problems altogether? How do you square that analysis with their decision to keep Shady, Mills, Incognito, Washington, Lawson, Hughes, and others left over from the last regime?

[Figster]

22 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

There was nothing quiet about this rebuild!  It was pretty damned loud, for anyone listening.

 

 

Sammy , Marcel for peanuts,

 

it got my attention...

[Mango]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Regardless of whether I agree with you....love the analogy

 

Darby - White has more then replaced him.....I actually dont worry about corners too much (even though I hated how wide open receivers were in the Bengals game) when it comes to McD......he knows corners and we always seem to find good ones.....we own White on a rookie deal for years

 

Preston Brown.....a solid MLB who didnt fit McD's defense....he CANNOT COVER.....we are biulding the panthers defense where LB's are required to cover ppl and stay on the field in obvious passing downs....Edmunds is getting better every week and we own him on a rookie deal for years

 

Glenn.....underrated when healthy...the problem is he had a lower body injury and they needed to move him while they could use it to aquire draft capital.....which turned into Josh Allen.....finding a franchise QB is the mission now...that and this slow rebiuld.

 

 

Its quiet because we made the playoffs.  Not too many teams make the playoffs in a rebiuld

 

I actually agree with you on all of this. I just think we could get to the same spot, in say, year 3 of the regime, other than the way we went about it. 

 

Preston Brown. Never let of the long term plan, by for 4 mil, would make or LB’s better. And help Edmunds splitting time 

 

Dareus. Bad contract. Agreed. Cheaper to hold onto him for 2018 and he makes us better. Still have Harry. 

 

Glenn. This is tough. I don’t like the trade but I also totally get it. Unsure of future cap ramifications in moving him a year later. But he is currently being paid pretty similar the the OG in NE. It wasn’t a bad contract. 

 

Darby. This is fully self inflicted. Also I believe in McD with being able to coach a secondary. It just wasn’t necessary. Tre was supposed to replace Gilmore. But instead we are right where we started before the 2017 draft. 

 

I’d prefer our current roster plus the above, and saved cap space this year (and next), while addressing the other existing holes with said free money. All were dudes who are average or well above average starters in the league. I’m a huge proponent of don’t get rid of talent unless you have a viable replacement. We don’t/didn’t. Probably wasn’t clear enough about that in the OP. 

 

Cheers. 

[Reed83HOF]

18 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

This is year 1 of what most people would consider a traditional rebuild.

and we already have the rookie QB...

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

There’s some BS narrative that AJ and Nate Peterman are easily upgrades over Tyrod and there is zero evidence of this.

 

There's only a few people on here that would tell you Peterman or McCarron are definite upgrades over Tyrod. Most probably feel the same way about it that I do. I already know Tyrod isn't franchise caliber. He had his 3 years. It's over. I don't know that about Peterman and McCarron yet. Well I'm pretty sure I know what McCarron is at this point, but definitely not Peterman. However small the probability he still has a chance to be a franchise caliber QB. I'd rather have that small chance than Tyrod's mediocre-at-best play.

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

and we already have the rookie QB...

 

Exactly. This season is what you normally see in year 1 of a rebuild. We hopefully drafted the franchise QB of the offense and the defense. We made a few veteran signings but mostly tried to fill our holes in the draft. We had an open QB competition between the rookie and 2 guys with experience. Next year we'll have cap space to build a contender if everything goes according to plan. That's what year 1 of a rebuild looks like. The problem is the last regime was so bad that we had to waste a year even getting to this point.

Edited August 28, 2018 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Exactly. This season is what you normally see in year 1 of a rebuild. We hopefully drafted the franchise QB of the offense and the defense. We made a few veteran signings but mostly tried to fill our holes in the draft. We had an open QB competition between the rookie and 2 guys with experience. Next year we'll have cap space to build a contender if everything goes according to plan. That's what year 1 of a rebuild looks like. The problem is the last regime was so bad that we had to waste a year even getting to this point.

Christ. Thank you. Quoted for sanity.

 

 

[H2o]

Darby - A Press Man cover corner who struggled in Zone situations. A player who also seemed to regress in his 2nd year. We received a 3rd Round pick and Jordan Matthews. Didn't fit the defense and we got a good return for him. Can't fault them for that. I believe we also parlayed that pick into Kelvin Benjamin. 

 

Dareus - Mental issues, issues with league discipline, issues with discipline in general, seemed to put it on cruise when he got paid, and didn't fit the mold of the type of players they were looking for on this team. McDermott preaches effort and competition. No one is safe. Not much of a return for him, but we dumped the dead weight. 

 

Glenn - I wanted to keep him, but I understand selling high on an often injured LT while you can. Especially if you feel you already have his replacement on the team. In their opinion Dawkins made him expendable. 

 

Preston Brown - Made a lot of tackles 5 yards or more down field. Only had 9 tfl last season. He was generally a liability in coverage as well. Preston was a solid player, but not one they felt they wanted to invest in long term. I get that as well. 

[DuckyBoys]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There's only a few people on here that would tell you Peterman or McCarron are definite upgrades over Tyrod. Most probably feel the same way about it that I do. I already know Tyrod isn't franchise caliber. He had his 3 years. It's over. I don't know that about Peterman and McCarron yet. Well I'm pretty sure I know what McCarron is at this point, but definitely not Peterman. However small the probability he still has a chance to be a franchise caliber QB. I'd rather have that small chance than Tyrod's mediocre-at-best play.

You nailed it  Media clowns bringing up Tyrod is a joke.  If we had a top 5 defense and if we had a top 5 running game we could win with Tyrod and it would still be week to week depending on how well the other had a game plan. I'd rather have Allen and give him the next three years to show he can give the Bills a  legitimate chance to win any week against any opponent.  There were games the past three years that you knew it was over after one quarter once teams figured out Tyrod's limitations

 

Keep drafting the other holes and if Allen isn't the guy you go out and try again in 2021  Peterman is a stop gap of developmental #2 unless you can coach arm strength.  Drew Brees is one qb I can think of who came in with limited arm and a few years later could throw to the outside numbers