Star Lotulelei: Where is the Impact?

[MAJBobby]

23 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I am going to defend Beane's pro-personnel a little bit. Beane never really had a lot of cap space to work with in either off-season of 2017 or 2018. Whaley did saddle the team with a lot of contracts some worth it others not. But in the limited amount of contract McBeane has handed out there are more negative than positive moves. Just for simplicity sake looking at the past 2 off-seasons worth of moves it isn't a great resume. 

 

Positive 

Hyde, Poyer, and Hauschka.

Not Beane but try again. And stop with the blaming thr cap that was self inflicted and what they chose to do. 

23 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Negative

Star (A bit too soon, not looking too hot), Holmes, DiMarco, Vlad, Ryan Davis, Bodine, Newhouse, and Vontae

 

Neutral/too soon to tell

Trent Murphy and Chris Ivory. 

 

Now granted a lot of those signings like Holmes, Bodine, Newhouse, Dimarco, Poyer, Haush, and Vlad were sub 3 million dollar contracts. So its hard to say how they are doing on "Big Ticket" items when they are 50/50 on such signings (Hit on Hyde and miss on Star so far.) 

 

All in all it looks like the smaller and mid level signings aren't that great while the larger signing just simply haven't happened that often. 

So any Impacts since BEANE has got here in his player personnel department. Or only McDs using Whaleys scouts?

[billsfan89]

Just now, vincec said:

That doesn't matter. He gets credit for them anyway because McDermott was here. lol.

 

The context is that we are evaluating how this current regime will be at evaluating pro-level talent. McD and a lot of the current staff that made the decisions that brought those players in are the same people that will be making the pro-personnel decisions going forward. Do you really think McD will not be making a lot of the personnel decisions going forward with Beane? 

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Not Beane but try again. And stop with the blaming thr cap that was self inflicted and what they chose to do. 

So any Impacts since BEANE has got here in his player personnel department. Or only McDs using Whaleys scouts?

 

How is the cap not an issue? They had a lot of big contracts and InCog and Wood retired. Would this team be that much better with Sammy, Dareus, Darby, Tyrod, and Glenn were on this team? People were bitching that Sammy and Glenn were hurt all the time, Dareus was a bum malcontent, Tyrod despite being a competent QB was not a franchise QB, and Darby was coming off a bit of a down year and not a fit for the current system. 

 

What could they have done differently to manage the cap, how was it Beane's fault that there were a bunch of big contracts on the roster entering the 2017 season? Beane had some space to spend and he didn't do a great job as his big ticket items in Murphy and Star weren't too hot but the amount of money to spend was limited.  

 

Yes had they kept Sammy, Dareus, Darby, Tyrod, and Glenn they would be better, but would they be a championship team? If they had those big contracts on the roster would they have the cap space to build around Allen in 2019 and beyond? I have serious doubt that Beane will be able to take the cap space and turn it into good veteran acquisitions. But I can't say that the cap was not an issue in building the 2017 and 2018 rosters. 

[MAJBobby]

4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The context is that we are evaluating how this current regime will be at evaluating pro-level talent. McD and a lot of the current staff that made the decisions that brought those players in are the same people that will be making the pro-personnel decisions going forward. Do you really think McD will not be making a lot of the personnel decisions going forward with Beane? 

 

How is the cap not an issue? They had a lot of big contracts and InCog and Wood retired. Would this team be that much better with Sammy, Dareus, Darby, Tyrod, and Glenn were on this team? People were bitching that Sammy and Glenn were hurt all the time, Dareus was a bum malcontent, Tyrod despite being a competent QB was not a franchise QB, and Darby was coming off a bit of a down year and not a fit for the current system. 

Sammy would be better than Benjamin YEP your damn right. 

 

Dareus i am fine with moving would give you more than Star but cost more too. 

 

Darby absolutely they would be better with Darby next to Trey

 

absolutely they would be better with Glenn on the Line. 

4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

What could they have done differently to manage the cap, how was it Beane's fault that there were a bunch of big contracts on the roster entering the 2017 season? Beane had some space to spend and he didn't do a great job as his big ticket items in Murphy and Star weren't too hot but the amount of money to spend was limited.  

So you take Dead hit for Dareus and then give it to Star who is a lesser player. Smart. 

 

Take on More Dead Cap siging McCarron whenTaylor would have been fine as a BU. 

 

4 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Yes had they kept Sammy, Dareus, Darby, Tyrod, and Glenn they would be better, but would they be a championship team? If they had those big contracts on the roster would they have the cap space to build around Allen in 2019 and beyond? I have serious doubt that Beane will be able to take the cap space and turn it into good veteran acquisitions. But I can't say that the cap was not an issue in building the 2017 and 2018 rosters. 

 

And yes they would have has space to build by not slashing and burning all in one year to have a ready made excuse lf dead cap 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 9/9/2018 at 4:56 PM, benderbender said:

*Berate

 

I thought he was just speaking from the Dutch.  Beraden, v.

 

(just kidding.  Though berade really is a tense of a Dutch verb.)

[DuckyBoys]

think you have to watch tape to see his impact if any  DT playing as a space eater typically dont register a ton of tackles.  Pretty sure 40-50 a season is good at his spot  Still 0 after two games isnt encouraging

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

think you have to watch tape to see his impact if any  DT playing as a space eater typically dont register a ton of tackles.  Pretty sure 40-50 a season is good at his spot  Still 0 after two games isnt encouraging

 

You dont pay a space eater 10M a year and 30M guaranteed 

[The Now Moment]

29 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

White, Dawkins, and Milano were good picks in 2017, Zay got off to a rough start but he has time to turn it around. Phillips, Edumonds and Allen the jury is still out but Phillips looks like a solid player and Edumonds and Allen are high upside players. Overall through 2 drafts I like their resumes so far in the draft. 

The jury is still out??  THEY'VE PLAYED IN TWO REGULAR SEASON GAMES!  Of course the jury is still out.  It'll be out for a few years.  Does anybody have any patience anymore?  They need time to develop.  All rookies do.  Especially Allen and Edmunds who are very young.  

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

You dont pay a space eater 10M a year and 30M guaranteed 

Actually, that seems to be about the going rate for space eaters.  Dontari Poe makes $9.33 million annually,  Timmy Jernigan makes $12 million a year and Damon Harrison got a 5 year deal for $46 million.  The salary cap is expanding and contracts are getting bigger.  

[Laughing Coffin]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Actually, that seems to be about the going rate for space eaters.  Dontari Poe makes $9.33 million annually,  Timmy Jernigan makes $12 million a year and Damon Harrison got a 5 year deal for $46 million.  The salary cap is expanding and contracts are getting bigger.  

 

You just named 3 good DTs, Star is not good

Edited September 17, 2018 by Laughing Coffin

[MAJBobby]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Actually, that seems to be about the going rate for space eaters.  Dontari Poe makes $9.33 million annually,  Timmy Jernigan makes $12 million a year and Damon Harrison got a 5 year deal for $46 million.  The salary cap is expanding and contracts are getting bigger.  

Poe 5.3M

Jernigan 5.0M

Harrison 9.6 M also one game of stats this year 6 tackles 

 

star zip zero zilch

 

so where are your numbers from again?

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[billsfan89]

25 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Sammy would be better than Benjamin YEP your damn right. 

 

Dareus i am fine with moving would give you more than Star but cost more too. 

 

Darby absolutely they would be better with Darby next to Trey

 

absolutely they would be better with Glenn on the Line. 

So you take Dead hit for Dareus and then give it to Star who is a lesser player. Smart. 

 

Take on More Dead Cap siging McCarron whenTaylor would have been fine as a BU. 

 

 

And yes they would have has space to build by not slashing and burning all in one year to have a ready made excuse lf dead cap 

 

The argument I am making isn't that this team wouldn't be better with Glenn, Sammy, Dareus, Tyrod, and Darby but would those players put this team at a championship level? If all 5 of those players were on the roster (ignoring the draft picks acquiring other players just for sake of argument) what would this team be? A 7-9 win team? That's certainly better but 3 of those players would have been on massive contracts (Sammy, Glenn, and Dareus) eating up a lot of cap space in 2019. 2 out of those 3 had major injury issues (Sammy and Glenn) while Dareus was a locker room issue. 

 

Tyrod hurts to let go because he was on a contract that would have voided after 2018 and he would have made for a competent QB for Allen to be behind for one more year. Darby hurts but the fact that he wasn't a fit for the scheme at least makes the trade understandable and Phillips looks to be a nice piece acquired for him at the very least.

 

You simply would not have had the same amount of cap space in 2019 if you had Glenn, Dareus, and Sammy (on a new contract) on the roster. Those players easily would have taken up well over 40 million in cap space and considering the injury and personality issues of those 3 longer term it is better the team got draft assets and cap space to work with in exchange for them. There simply wouldn't have been the same windfall of cap space in 2019 had they had those players still on the roster. 

 

Taking on all that dead cap results in a lot of cap space for 2019 when Allen will still have 4 years remaining on a rookie deal and the team can at least attempt to build a proper team around him. I am not defending all of Beane's moves, I think the Tyrod move was bad, Vonta over Gaines was bad (esp considering what EJ ended up getting), I liked Star but not at the insane price they got him for, and even Murphy I was iffy on. 

 

But no matter how bad 2018 ends up being I think McBeane has to get one more year to see if their rebuild can be properly assembled. They will have an off-season with proper cap space, an additional draft class, and the roster will have been properly turned around. If 2019 sucks then hey they get the boot they had all the tools to assemble their team and they !@#$ed up. But right now the process (no pun intended) just isn't complete. 

[The Now Moment]

9 minutes ago, Laughing Coffin said:

 

You just named 3 good DTs, Star is not good

His job is to open up lanes for linebackers.  He does that by eating blocks, not making the big tackle.  If you want the DT who makes the big play in the backfield on a consistent basis, you'll have to pay more than that.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Buffalo30

[billsfan89]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Poe 5.3M

Jernigan 5.0M

Harrison 9.6 M also one game of stats this year 6 tackles 

 

star zip zero zilch

 

so where are your numbers from again?

 

Poe's average annual value is 9.3, his cap hit for 2018 is 5.3 because of the way it is structured, Star's is structured similarly he is only a 6.4 hit this year. Jennigan's aav is 12. Don't get me wrong I think we overpaid for Star big time. I thought his aav should have been 7-8 I would rather have had Poe for 9.3 but then again who knows what it would have cost to bring him here. 

 

https://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-tackle/

[Johnny Hammersticks]

Didn’t he grade out rather well by PPF metrics last week?  I didn’t key in on him so much that week, and obviously haven’t seen the all22, but he didn’t strike me as someone who played poorly.  He eats up blockers and keeps the LB’ers clean.  What’s the big deal here?

[The Now Moment]

14 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Poe 5.3M

Jernigan 5.0M

Harrison 9.6 M also one game of stats this year 6 tackles 

 

star zip zero zilch

 

so where are your numbers from again?

Apologies, their contacts:  Timmy Jernigan 4 year contract $48 million with a $10 million dollar signing bonus and $24 million guaranteed.  Dontari Poe 3 year contract $28 million with a $10 million dollar signing bonus and $13 million guaranteed.  Snacks 5 year $46 million with an $8 million dollar signing bonus and $24 million guarunteed.  Star's contract 5 year $50 million with a $13 million dollar signing bonus and $24,650,000 guaranteed.  As for his tackles, stats for a guy whose job is to free up the linebackers will be non-existent.  His success results in the success for the linebackers, not in the stat column.

2 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

Didn’t he grade out rather well by PPF metrics last week?  I didn’t key in on him so much that week, and obviously haven’t seen the all22, but he didn’t strike me as someone who played poorly.  He eats up blockers and keeps the LB’ers clean.  What’s the big deal here?

Exactly

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Buffalo30 said:

Apologies, their contacts:  Timmy Jernigan 4 year contract $48 million with a $10 million dollar signing bonus and $24 million guaranteed.  Dontari Poe 3 year contract $28 million with a $10 million dollar signing bonus and $13 million guaranteed.  Snacks 5 year $46 million with an $8 million dollar signing bonus and $24 million guarunteed.  Star's contract 5 year $50 million with a $13 million dollar signing bonus and $24,650,000 guaranteed.  As for his tackles, stats for a guy whose job is to free up the linebackers will be non-existent.  His success results in the success for the linebackers, not in the stat column.

 

So why do each one of these Space Eaters log stats again?

[The Now Moment]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

Didn’t he grade out rather well by PPF metrics last week?  I didn’t key in on him so much that week, and obviously haven’t seen the all22, but he didn’t strike me as someone who played poorly.  He eats up blockers and keeps the LB’ers clean.  What’s the big deal here?

A lot of fans stare at the stats column too much

[billsfan89]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

His job is to open up lanes for linebackers.  He does that by eating blocks, not making the big tackle.  If you want the DT who makes the big play in the backfield on a consistent basis, you'll have to pay more than that.

 

The run defense this week was not good, now that might not be Star's fault once you break down the All-22 analysis, Star could have been doing what he does effectively (occupying blockers and taking on guys into the gaps he is designed to) and the porous run defense could have been a result of Edumonds over playing his gaps or the players next to him. 

 

It's hard to tell with a player like Star but it just seems from watching him that he looks more like an OK player against the run when he is paid to be a great player in that respect. I watch guys like Snacks and they seem to almost always control the line of scrimmage, like they are immovable players that the opposing O-line can't shift. Star doesn't look like he has an gravity along the trenches. 

[The Now Moment]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So why do each one of these Space Eaters log stats again?

We had two rough games as a defense.  That being said, Timmy Jernigan had the same number of tackles as Star last year and only one more sack and got a 4 year 48 million dollar deal. Star was right there with the others.  His job was to free up Luke Keuchly.  It's not a flashy job but he did it well.  

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

We had two rough games as a defense.  That being said, Timmy Jernigan had the same number of tackles as Star last year and only one more sack and got a 4 year 48 million dollar deal. Star was right there with the others.  His job was to free up Luke Keuchly.  It's not a flashy job but he did it well.  

 

And no he didnt. He has regressed every year since being a Rookie and very easy to see why Carolina moved on.