"Ruining" a QB by starting him too soon

[ALF]

I would only put Allen out there this season if the OL is rock solid in pass protection. 

[Bill_with_it]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, you've mixed a couple things there.

 

Absolutely there are busts who did not have maturity/work ethic/attitude/discipline.  Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Josh Freeman probably, Johnny Manziel come to mind.

 

But now you get to "field smarts".  What is that exactly?  Is it innate?  Is it learnable?  Coachable? 

 

Certainly there are failed QB who had the maturity, work ethic, attitude, and discipline to succeed.  So if you bring in "field smarts", if a failed QB doesn't have enough of it, isn't that tantamount to saying "he failed because he failed"?  And doesn't it still beg the question, if it's learnable or coachable at all, are there guys who might have had a different trajectory if their development were handled differently?

 

 

 

Agreed on both points.  Not only Harbaugh, but then improved even further working with Andy Reid, to the point where he just got paid.

 

So yeah, coaching and how a QB is handled does make a difference.

I was 50/50 about using field smarts. Then I read a few articles about how these1/2 rd  qbs are living and breathing football since the age 8-11 yrs of age. That’s astonishing with high level coaching, summer camps, qb camps etc that’s 12- 14 yrs of craft honing. While that doesn’t make them a master, they should have a decent level of field smarts; obviously not expecting Manning level.

[Orlando Tim]

On 7/31/2018 at 2:24 AM, Domdab99 said:

 

So every QB who started in his rookie year was ruined?

 

Do you know how stupid that sounds?

 

I am not sure if you read it quickly and tried to find a point to argue but what I stated:

Basically if you start a guy who starts to believe his limited arsenal is enough you will ruin him, and every qb starts with a limited arsenal. 

 

I will dumb it down for you. If Josh Allen starts off 11-5 this year and believes that he does not need to improve he will get worse-niot because his skills diminish but defenses learn. RGIII would have done well to sit a year and learn not to run because D coordinators figured it out. The best QBs every off season try to improve-Manning after throwing 51 tds was working that off season to improve. Every QB coming out of college has a limited arsenal and the long term successes will increase their arsenal.

[Strethor]

You tend to not ruin a QB because the good ones learn to not make the same mistakes again and the bad ones are thought of as ruined - really they just not good enough.

[Domdab99]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I am not sure if you read it quickly and tried to find a point to argue but what I stated:

Basically if you start a guy who starts to believe his limited arsenal is enough you will ruin him, and every qb starts with a limited arsenal. 

 

I will dumb it down for you. If Josh Allen starts off 11-5 this year and believes that he does not need to improve he will get worse-niot because his skills diminish but defenses learn. RGIII would have done well to sit a year and learn not to run because D coordinators figured it out. The best QBs every off season try to improve-Manning after throwing 51 tds was working that off season to improve. Every QB coming out of college has a limited arsenal and the long term successes will increase their arsenal.

 

I will dumb this down for you:

 

Your highlighted part does not, in any way, say the 2nd part. 

[reddogblitz]

5 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

As Sam Monson from Pro Football Focus said yesterday, start Allen from Game 1 and let him learn on the job.

 

Neither of the other 2 guys is going to play into the Bills future plans, so might as well get Allen in there and see if he can do it.

 

Suggesting that this somehow "ruins" Allen is just dumb BS.   

 

 

 

Do these losses we get while we "get Allen in there and see if he can do it" go on Sam Monson's permanent record?

 

Sure it's fine if you're a fan or sportswriter to say just toss the kid in and see what he can do.

 

But Coach McDermott is a smart coach.  he knows that if you're losing too many games you're out quickly regardless of if you got Allen in to "see if he can do it" or not.  A coach that is rebuilding is rebuilding for the next coach that comes in.  Think of the Gus/Marrone scenario.

 

Not to mention what it will do to players like Shady and Kyle Williams and Kelvin Benjamin and Jerry Hughes if one of the other guys does better in TC/PS/practice than Allen.  Mutiny in the locker room is never pretty.

 

Great idea for getting clicks, but dumb for a coach that wants to build for the future and WIN NOW. Use last season as your guide.  Many sportswriters thought the Bills should roll with Nasty Nate to "see what he can do".  If we followed their advice then we'd be sitting on 18 right now.

 

Of course if Allen suddenly "lights it up" and is ready in the eyes of Coach McDermott, by all means ...

[Orlando Tim]

2 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

 

I will dumb this down for you:

 

Your highlighted part does not, in any way, say the 2nd part. 

. 

 

I am surprised you were so baffled by my post so I asked two football fan coworkers if they understood my point from original post and both stated your interpretation was off base considering the entirety of original post.  If I had only posted what you quoted I would possibly agree but I started post by commenting on the individual matters. I will try and be more precise with my language from now on.

[Domdab99]

No worries

[Kelly the Dog]

There are only 5-6 guys on the entire planet that are good enough to play consistently very well as an NFL QB. Another dozen guys on the entire planet play well in bursts. Mental toughness is one of the dozen or so qualities that separate the top guys from everyone else. If you don't have it, and failure early knocks it out of you, you didn't have enough for the long run anyway.

[LaDexter]

QBs are not ruined by starting too soon.

 

QBs are ruined when the OL fails to pass block....

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

20 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

I would say no. I would say that those that were failed qbs had a significant mosaic of problems that prevented them from being good qbs. From maturity, to work ethic, attitude, field smarts, to discipline, etc...

 

...the "list" exemplifies the significant decline and desperation of the NFL QB spot over the last decade+......how many of those 1st rounders would not even get a shot at UDFA status yesteryear?.....how many are STILL hanging around extorting an NFL QB paycheck while masquerading as an NFL QB?......colleges no longer give a rat's azz about churning out NFL ready QB's.....whatever style sells, puts butts in the seats, leads to a megamillions bowl game and keeps boosters happy is all that matters....just too bad the NFL cannot afford a minor/developmental league, right?....um ok.........

[Fr. Jerk]

On 7/30/2018 at 8:42 PM, jrober38 said:

If a QB can play, they usually show it very early on. 

 

Show up and blow up, ya dig? 

[Bing Bong]

2 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...the "list" exemplifies the significant decline and desperation of the NFL QB spot over the last decade+......how many of those 1st rounders would not even get a shot at UDFA status yesteryear?.....how many are STILL hanging around extorting an NFL QB paycheck while masquerading as an NFL QB?......colleges no longer give a rat's azz about churning out NFL ready QB's.....whatever style sells, puts butts in the seats, leads to a megamillions bowl game and keeps boosters happy is all that matters....just too bad the NFL cannot afford a minor/developmental league, right?....um ok.........

You know what grinds my gears? When people put quotes in something like "list" when their still literally talking about a list.

[GoBills808]

25 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

You know what grinds my gears? When people put quotes in something like "list" when their still literally talking about a list.

How about when people don't know the difference between 'their' and 'they're'? 

[Bing Bong]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

How about when people don't know the difference between 'their' and 'they're'? 

I chose not to edit because I saw the irony. And I used their because that's what the mic picks up with speech text. But who are these "people" you speak of. And who cares about the "difference" of using 2nd grade grammar.

 

What's up with the "bills" in your user name. Who came up with this "list" filled with "quarterbacks" and "stats"

2 hours ago, The Jerk said:

 

Show up and blow up, ya dig? 

Let me ask TBD the difference between a raw QB talented riding pine year 1 or year 2? You still get the incredible benefit of standing around holding the clipboard for Josh McCown. 

 

The difference is you're not quite sure how good you are by year 2. And you're fortunate to find out you don't suck?

Edited August 2, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Bing Bong]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

How about when people don't know the difference between 'their' and 'they're'? 

I feel ya GB. But witch is more annoying, putting quotes around around a simple word with no good or bad connotations to discredit it as is it's not defining what it is? Or using the wrong word?

 

Your factual grammatical "correction" is just as bad as this ordered rows of names that OP dares to call a "list"

[Tyrod's friend]

On 7/30/2018 at 8:42 PM, jrober38 said:

If a QB can play, they usually show it very early on. 

Before all this bull, the possibly worst single season belonged to a QB as a rookie. He didn't show it "early on", and he didn't show it later (2nd year, 19th rated QB) but at least he improved on that 38% completion rate.

He just went on to win 5 Super Bowls.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Tyrod's friend

[Buffalo86]

2 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

...Your factual grammatical "correction" is just as bad as this ordered rows of names that OP dares to call a "list"

 

FTR, not once did I dare refer to it as a "list".  Shame on you for calling it an "ordered row of names".  

[Bing Bong]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo86 said:

 

FTR, not once did I dare refer to it as a "list".  Shame on you for calling it an "ordered row of names".  

Yeah well I'm not sure about your "QBs" more like average joes that should have never thrown the pigskin until they waited a year. You think they're good now, imagine how much better they'd be had they waited a year.. to learn.. football and maintain their sensitive egos

[Bing Bong]

EJ Manuel probably didn't pan out because his mentor was the kind of guy that slips on a mat and ends his career. If he had Joe Montana in front of him he would have learned all the tricks Joe passed down to Steve Young. 

 

Really makes ya think, Young needed Montana to learn his scrambling, Rodgers needed Favre for his side arm delivery. These guys are really taking a page from a vets book.

Edited August 2, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks