Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Just a note here that this started as a football-related topic concerning a player accused of rape on the eve of the draft, not indicted, and now being sued/counter-sueing The legal system in general is relevant to the football-related topic, but if this veers consistently into a general legal discussion and away from the specific football-related case, it will be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So we'll have to agree to disagree spectacularly here. I'm all for supporting criminal charges of making a false complaint or perjury where appropriate, but they have nowhere near the same impact as some of the crimes, and thus IMO the penalty should be no where near the same. You're right, in many cases the impact of the false accusation was much greater than any impact the crime would have had had it actually happened. Good for Gareon. Punch back with everything you got. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 19 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: This is whole untrue, and reeks of bias. Your position leads to a place which seeks to convict more individuals of rape, rather than convict more rapists of rape. Individuals and rapists are not synonyms, and a justice system which seeks to make convictions easier isn't metering out justice. The accuser does not "deserve to be believed". The accused does. Innocent until proven guilty requires the presumption of innocence. The same standard, the presumption of innocence, would apply to the person being accused of making false claims. A criminal statute which would of course be narrowly defined. Proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that someone knowingly and intentionally accused another person of rape would and should be an incredibly high bar to get over. More so, it's fair, and it's just. Which is what any decent person should want from it's justice system. If everyone had equal access to justice, maybe. You go ahead and continue to pretend that's reality - but it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 15 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Individuals and rapists are not synonyms, and a justice system which seeks to make convictions easier isn't metering out justice. The accuser does not "deserve to be believed". The accused does. I agree absolutely with the paragraph above. You have correctly identified the policy problem. So why not tackle that problem? I think your solution, rather, risks a deterrant effect in cases where the evidence is he said, she said. What we need to do - certainly in the UK (it seems in this case in the US there was a thorough investigation and not sufficient evidence to charge) is tackle a culture of accepting the the complainant's allegation as truth. We have gone from one end of the scale (mistrust and suspicion) to the extreme opposite (almost unchallenged belief). The solution to that is intervention up stream with police and prosecuters. In the UK I am convinced that we already have sufficient criminal powers in Perjury and Perverting the course of justice to prosecute in cases where rape claims are genuine malicious falsehoods. Perjury also exists in the US not sure is perverting does but I am not persuaded that creating an additional criminal offence actually has any material impact on the number of such prosecutions pursued but could have a deterrant effect on potentially genuine complaints being made. I just think it is the right policy problem but you are seeking the wrong policy solution. Though (to keep this at least a little on topic) in Conley's case the US system has worked hasn't it? An allegation was made, an investigation carried out, insufficient evidence found, no charge brought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said: If everyone had equal access to justice, maybe. You go ahead and continue to pretend that's reality - but it isn't. This is an absolute red herring; and shifts the goal posts away from the actual topic. As such, I'll take it as your mea culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said: Yes, that ought to fully deter people who lack faith in the justice system from coming forward to report crimes against them. Well done. There are some raging psychotics around here. If you know you're a victim of a crime, and you have provided enough evidence for someone to be arrested, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about, should you? In fact, I've read about two police officers falsely accused crimes against the people they pulled over, and both were proven unequivocally false because of a body cam. In fact, one "victim" got a top lawyer, who trashed the living crap out of the cop in a public statement, and then had to retract everything when the body cam showed the woman was batschitt crazy and lying through her teeth. The cop was kind and respectful during the entire event. She should not be allowed to go free with an "Oops, my bad." She should be given a reason to think twice about her stupidity, and what it costs others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmart128 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 I don't think that he really cares about the money... I think he just wants to make her pay for her false allegations that could have potentially had a much worse impact on his life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 How does he prove to a jury he didn't rape her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 24 minutes ago, Kmart128 said: I don't think that he really cares about the money... I think he just wants to make her pay for her false allegations that could have potentially had a much worse impact on his life Like I've said up thread, since this is a counter-filing to the civil suit she filed back in April, seems probable that it's 99.9% about legal maneuvering by his team and maybe 0.1% "wants to make her pay for false allegations". If it was the latter, why not file after the grand jury declined to indict him a year ago? Why wait for her to sue him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said: This is an absolute red herring; and shifts the goal posts away from the actual topic. As such, I'll take it as your mea culpa. It's not a red herring at all, and you know that. African-Americans, in particular, do not have nearly the level of confidence in the justice system that other groups enjoy. A policy such as you're suggesting will deter them from coming forward to report crimes, especially crimes against them committed by whites, because they'll (perhaps rightly) believe that they'll end up with a long-term prison sentence for simply reporting the crime. The same would likely be true for poor people, who would be deterred from reporting crimes against wealthier individuals. Back to Conley - unless he has evidence that she made up the allegations, this is a bizarre and questionable strategy, to say the least. Edited July 7, 2018 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalobloodfloridahome Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 This is such a touchy subject because the Guy usually has absolutely no control of the situation and any woman can literally say anything and ruin his life regardless of whether he is cleared or not it will always be something he has to carry around with him. There really is no good answer to how to handle this type of situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said: It's not a red herring at all, and you know that. African-Americans, in particular, do not have nearly the level of confidence in the justice system that other groups enjoy. A policy such as you're suggesting will deter them from coming forward to report crimes, especially crimes against them committed by whites, because they'll (perhaps rightly) believe that they'll end up with a long-term prison sentence for simply reporting the crime. The same would likely be true for poor people, who would be deterred from reporting crimes against wealthier individuals. Back to Conley - unless he has evidence that she made up the allegations, this is a bizarre and questionable strategy, to say the least. I keep hoping one of our resident attorneys will chime in here. I'm surmising based on the bits and pieces I know, but I don't think it's bizarre. I think it's smart legal strategy. 1) At least in some states, if sued in civil court and a judgement made against you, to my understanding you can not then sue the plaintiff or file a counter-claim. You must do so *before* the judgement (otherwise the courts could be bogged down in "oh yeah?" chain lawsuits back and forth). So if he wants that possibility, now is the time to file. 2) I believe that if her lawsuit goes to trial, his defense will be limited to addressing the claims in her lawsuit. But if he counter-sues, he can bring in evidence relating to his claims. So it's potentially a very smart legal strategy. For example, just defending her suit, his predicted draft position and actual draft position might be ruled irrelevant. But if he is counter-suing claiming defamation leading to loss of $5M in contract $$ or attempted extortion, then it all becomes relevant. 3) Opening that whole counter-suit can of worms above may substantially alter the picture the plaintiff's lawyers believe the jury will see if the case goes to trial, and thus make it more likely for the plaintiff to be willing to dismiss or settle on terms favorable to him (say without any finding of fault). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I keep hoping one of our resident attorneys will chime in here. I'm surmising based on the bits and pieces I know, but I don't think it's bizarre. I think it's smart legal strategy. 1) At least in some states, if sued in civil court and a judgement made against you, to my understanding you can not then sue the plaintiff or file a counter-claim. You must do so *before* the judgement (otherwise the courts could be bogged down in "oh yeah?" chain lawsuits back and forth). So if he wants that possibility, now is the time to file. 2) I believe that if her lawsuit goes to trial, his defense will be limited to addressing the claims in her lawsuit. But if he counter-sues, he can bring in evidence relating to his claims. So it's potentially a very smart legal strategy. For example, just defending her suit, his predicted draft position and actual draft position might be ruled irrelevant. But if he is counter-suing claiming defamation leading to loss of $5M in contract $$ or attempted extortion, then it all becomes relevant. 3) Opening that whole counter-suit can of worms above may substantially alter the picture the plaintiff's lawyers believe the jury will see if the case goes to trial, and thus make it more likely for the plaintiff to be willing to dismiss or settle on terms favorable to him (say without any finding of fault). I happen to be one of our resident attorneys! The reason I think it's bizarre - and I'd usually counsel against it - is because it can easily be spun by her lawyers as "attacking the victim." He does't need to sue her in order to defend himself against her claims if he believes they're frivolous - and he could always wait until her case is dismissed before counter-suing her. If I were defending her, I'd frame his counter-suit as an effort to bully and silence her. As for your question (2) - yes generally, but in this case there should be nearly total overlap between his defense to her allegations and his claim that she made it up. As a practical matter, the evidence in both cases should be identical. As for (3), you've hit on why it may actually be a great strategy for him - if her lawyers are pressing a civil claim against him, it's very likely on contingency - meaning they are footing the bill for a chance at the upside - and she is paying nothing out of her own pocket. By counter-suing, he may be changing the economic calculus on her side of things, because her contingent fee arrangement with her lawyers may very well not extend to defending his suit - meaning that she may have to pay out of her own pocket to defend herself, meaning that she may end up proposing a "walk away" settlement. I suspect this is the main reason he filed his suit (in addition, perhaps, to seeking an opportunity to re-brand himself in the media by going on the attack). Edited July 7, 2018 by Coach Tuesday 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said: I happen to be one of our resident attorneys! The reason I think it's bizarre - and I'd usually counsel against it - is because it can easily be spun by her lawyers as "attacking the victim." He does't need to sue her in order to defend himself against her claims if he believes they're frivolous - and he could always wait until her case is dismissed before counter-suing her. If I were defending her, I'd frame his counter-suit as an effort to bully and silence her. As for your question (2) - yes generally, but in this case there should be nearly total overlap between his defense to her allegations and his claim that she made it up. As a practical matter, the evidence in both cases should be identical. As for (3), you've hit on why it may actually be a great strategy for him - if her lawyers are pressing a civil claim against him, it's very likely on contingency - meaning they are footing the bill for a chance at the upside - and she is paying nothing out of her own pocket. By counter-suing, he may be changing the economic calculus on her side of things, because her contingent fee arrangement with her lawyers may very well not extend to defending his suit - meaning that she may have to pay out of her own pocket to defend herself, meaning that she may end up proposing a "walk away" settlement. I suspect this is the main reason he filed his suit (in addition, perhaps, to seeking an opportunity to re-brand himself in the media by going on the attack). Great Stuff, Tuesday - Thanks so much for providing some insight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 For what it's worth nearly every woman I've ever known has been raped. It happens. A lot. And most of the time they don't go forward. And for what it's worth, many men I've known have been accused of it and done no such thing. The groups of friends I'd had throughout the years always has that one guy who the group knows is that guy. It's a sad state and I support his lawsuit if he was innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: For what it's worth nearly every woman I've ever known has been raped. It happens. A lot. And most of the time they don't go forward. And for what it's worth, many men I've known have been accused of it and done no such thing. The groups of friends I'd had throughout the years always has that one guy who the group knows is that guy. It's a sad state and I support his lawsuit if he was innocent. This is very disconcerting, on so many different levels. I certainly can’t say “nearly every” about the women I’ve known, and I’ve never had “that guy” in my circle of friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 34 minutes ago, Augie said: This is very disconcerting, on so many different levels. I certainly can’t say “nearly every” about the women I’ve known, and I’ve never had “that guy” in my circle of friends. Totally agree! I know a couple of women who have been raped and another who was seriously sexually assualted. But that is 3 out of all the women I know.... and I have never had a group of friends where I have thought that there was "that guy". If there was I would extracate myself from his company pretty sharpish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Augie said: This is very disconcerting, on so many different levels. I certainly can’t say “nearly every” about the women I’ve known, and I’ve never had “that guy” in my circle of friends. Going back to college, you just not might have been aware. There were two or 3 guys in my circle of friends whilst involved in athletics that had that reputation. And that guy is usually someone that is an interloper to the groups of friends and in and out. Small Town and hoity toity suburbs are a jungle. Hell, of the last 4 relationships I've had all we're raped. It wasn't until a few months ago that I realized with the girl I'm seeing when we were talking about it; every girl she's friends with has been taken advantage of to the point where it could be rape. I asked several female friends and they said "yep." Of course, I asked several male acquaintances if they ever went too far with a girl under the influence or taken liberties with a woman when she might not have been in favor. Surprisingly, several said yes and justified it as being something where they were both drunk or she wanted it and was playing hard to get/didn't make a big deal. Maybe more surprisingly, for all my ****, I've never once even come close to that line with a woman when it comes to saying "no." 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Totally agree! I know a couple of women who have been raped and another who was seriously sexually assualted. But that is 3 out of all the women I know.... and I have never had a group of friends where I have thought that there was "that guy". If there was I would extracate myself from his company pretty sharpish. It's not always that easy. You just keep yourself at a distance and politely acknowledge to friends (women) that he is not an upstanding gentleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Augie said: This is very disconcerting, on so many different levels. I certainly can’t say “nearly every” about the women I’ve known, and I’ve never had “that guy” in my circle of friends. Meaning no disparagement, Augie, but that probably means you just aren't the guy they talk to about it or have never been in the context where they talk about it. I've heard a few stories, but I have no idea if it's true of "nearly every" woman I know, 'cuz I'm not the type who draws out the stories, either. I mean, it'd be a bit weird, right? "Hi, I'm Jodie, pleased to meet you, and by the way, 30 years ago when I was 15 and sneaking out of the house to drink Mad Dog in the cemetery with my friends on Saturday night, I was forcibly raped by the friend of a friend who offered to drive me home. My friend Matt knew him so I thought he was OK". Y'know? Of the women where I have heard a story, none reported it. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 50 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Meaning no disparagement, Augie, but that probably means you just aren't the guy they talk to about it or have never been in the context where they talk about it. I've heard a few stories, but I have no idea if it's true of "nearly every" woman I know, 'cuz I'm not the type who draws out the stories, either. I mean, it'd be a bit weird, right? "Hi, I'm Jodie, pleased to meet you, and by the way, 30 years ago when I was 15 and sneaking out of the house to drink Mad Dog in the cemetery with my friends on Saturday night, I was forcibly raped by the friend of a friend who offered to drive me home. My friend Matt knew him so I thought he was OK". Y'know? Of the women where I have heard a story, none reported it. None. I'm with a group of girlfriend's this evening and this has come up. All of been raped. 7 women. ??♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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