Roster Review/Offense

[SouthNYfan]

5 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

I agree with @John from Riverside. Clay and O'Leary are reliable, "excellent" pass catchers. Not too many drops between the two of them. And they're not a part of a bottom tier WR corps, they're TEs.  

 

They should be good outlets for our young/inexperienced QBs this year. 

 

They are both inconsistent.

An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out.

They have yet to show that.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

They are both inconsistent.

An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out.

They have yet to show that.

Actually no that is not true because even the best pass catcher's in the league drop balls.

[SouthNYfan]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Actually no that is not true because even the best pass catcher's in the league drop balls.

 

What did I say about drops?

Nothing.

They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent.

That's the point.

 

Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time.

He's not reliable from week to week.

That's the point.

You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play.

 

His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami.

Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

12 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

They are both inconsistent.

An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out.

They have yet to show that.

 

4 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

What did I say about drops?

Nothing.

They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent.

That's the point.

 

Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time.

He's not reliable from week to week.

That's the point.

You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play.

 

His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami.

Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

 

You make it sound like our TEs should have been the focal points of our offense for every game. They're certainly not top 5 TEs, but they've been reliable when called upon. Just because their stat lines aren't consistent each week,  it doesn't mean they're not reliable or not excellent pass catchers. Wasn't that the argument here? 

 

So many factors involved in their stat lines from week to week, year to year. Different schemes, different game plans, inconsistency at QB, etc., all played a role. 

 

Again, when called upon, they've been reliable. They can't force the ball to themselves. 

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

 

You make it sound like our TEs should have been the focal points of our offense for every game. They're certainly not top 5 TEs, but they've been reliable when called upon. Just because their stat lines aren't consistent each week,  it doesn't mean they're not reliable or not excellent pass catchers. Wasn't that the argument here? 

 

So many factors involved in their stat lines from week to week, year to year. Different schemes, different game plans, inconsistency at QB, etc., all played a role. 

 

Again, when called upon, they've been reliable. They can't force the ball to themselves. 

 

That's true

Clay wasn't very consistent in Miami either though.

Go look back at his history.

If he's not trying hard week on week out, which it seems like he isn't, then he's inconsistant, therefore I wouldn't call him "excellent" 

 

I look at basketball, Jr Smith is a streaky, inconsistant 3 pt shooter. When he's hot, he hits like 12 of 16 three pointers and is on fire. They he will go like 3 of 20 over the next two games. I would call him streaky and inconsistant, but dangerous when he's on.

That's how I view clay.

He not a reliable safety valve, which is what most TEs are for their QB. He's available randomly to make plays, but isn't consistently open, whether that's the schemes, his effort, his talent level, I'm not sure, but he's not consistently there.

[Soda Popinski]

I thought Teller was a LG and would challenge that spot and Miller would be back battling Ducasse for the RG spot.   

[John from Riverside]

29 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

What did I say about drops?

Nothing.

They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent.

That's the point.

 

Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time.

He's not reliable from week to week.

That's the point.

You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play.

 

His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami.

Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

How could you possibly know what I am looking at.

 

That is your problem...you assume to much like you know something.

[SouthNYfan]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

How could you possibly know what I am looking at.

 

That is your problem...you assume to much like you know something.

 

You sound angry John.

I think you need to relax.

What are you looking at them which disctates calling clay an "excellent pass catcher" other than his catch %?

I have pointed out many ways in which he's inconsistant, and many objective things in regards to the wr corps, the QB situation, and the oline potential issues.

You on the other hand seem to be excited about everything because it's the bills and you said they'll be okay, yet have no actual evidence that they will be, and my assumptions are based on reality and objectively looking at our squad, while yours are just "BUT I SAID THEY WILL BE GOOD SO THEY WILL BE. IT'S MY OPINION SO IT CAN'T BE WRONG"

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

You sound angry John.

I think you need to relax.

What are you looking at them which disctates calling clay an "excellent pass catcher" other than his catch %?

I have pointed out many ways in which he's inconsistant, and many objective things in regards to the wr corps, the QB situation, and the oline potential issues.

You on the other hand seem to be excited about everything because it's the bills and you said they'll be okay, yet have no actual evidence that they will be, and my assumptions are based on reality and objectively looking at our squad, while yours are just "BUT I SAID THEY WILL BE GOOD SO THEY WILL BE. IT'S MY OPINION SO IT CAN'T BE WRONG" 

Well guess what....your wrong again.

 

Because I NEVER said they were going to be good....I said I am not going to say they are gonna suck until I see the product.

 

There is a difference....

[SouthNYfan]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well guess what....your wrong again.

 

Because I NEVER said they were going to be good....I said I am not going to say they are gonna suck until I see the product.

 

There is a difference....

 

On the other thread you said you "don't see a dropoff", which means they will be as good as last year, does it not?

That is a baseless assumption and a massive leap of faith when considering the oline situation.

 

They are replacing the two best starters with two backups who were already on the team on regards to the oline.

That's a fact.

They were the backups for a reason, and the starters retired, leaving the Bills in a pickle.

It's beyond optimistic at best to assume they will be equal to last year's.

 

Their receiving corps best wr just had yet another knee surgery, which objectively means he will most likely regress, but he may not, which I can accept.

 

We lost Thompson who was a decent wr, picked up Kerley, who isn't bad, and is probably a wash.

 

Jones, who was pretty bad last year, tried to jump out of a window, and seems to have a huge mental block with catching the ball.

 

Our fa QB hasn't started in a couple years, and was mediocre when throwing to arguably the great receiving corps in the NFL that year, including aj green who is incredible.

Now he's getting put behind a patchwork, inexperienced oline, with bottom of the league receivers and a inconsistant te. 

 

So please, tell my why you don't see a dropoff with that group?

You just keep saying "you can't tell me my opinion is wrong!"

I'm sure your opinion is that the world is flat also, right?

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

I think maybe the whole TEs argument here may have gone off the rails a bit...here are the comments I was focusing on:

 

14 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

the TE's are inconsistent at best, I would not call them "excellent pass catchers"

 

 

14 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

The TE's ARE excellent pass catchers....and they have proven that.

 

 

There's a difference in being "excellent pass catchers" and "inconsistent" (which, based on your follow ups, you're referring more to their overall performance/impact on the stat sheet, week in, week out). Not trying to speak for John here, but I interpreted his comment about being excellent pass catchers as having reliable hands. Maybe that wasn't his point, but that was the basis for my post. 

 

Now perhaps "excellent" might not be the best choice of words, but IMO both Clay, (and especially) O'Leary have great hands for their position. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[oldmanfan]

When they put in their offense and then decide who is actually on the roster and who's starting I'll comment.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

I think maybe the whole TEs argument here may have gone off the rails a bit...here's the comments I was focusing on:

 

 

 

There's a difference in being "excellent pass catchers" and "inconsistent" (which, based on your follow ups, you're referring more to their overall performance/impact on the stat sheet, week in, week out). Not trying to speak for John here, but I interpreted his comment about being excellent pass catchers as having reliable hands. Maybe that wasn't his point, but that was the basis for my post. 

 

Now perhaps "excellent" might not be the best choice of words, but IMO both Clay, (and especially) O'Leary have great hands for their position. 

 

That's fair, I would interpret a guy being called "excellent pass catcher" as a guy being consistent, especially for a TE who is generally a safe, reliable target week it week out.

Consistency is part of excellence, especially with a TE

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

48 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

That's how I view clay.

He not a reliable safety valve, which is what most TEs are for their QB. He's available randomly to make plays, but isn't consistently open, whether that's the schemes, his effort, his talent level, I'm not sure, but he's not consistently there.

 

I don't agree with this. The bolded part; I would say the same is true for all but 4 or 5 TEs in the league, and Clay is probably a better blocker than those guys. Keeping him in to block at times obviously doesn't allow him to be an outlet on those plays, but he does provide value to the passing attack in those instances. 

 

He led the team in receiving yards, and was 2nd in receptions behind McCoy. Granted that's a reflection of the lack of WRs and inconsistent QB play, but I'd say he's "reliable".

Edited May 21, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

On the other thread you said you "don't see a dropoff", which means they will be as good as last year, does it not?

That is a baseless assumption and a massive leap of faith when considering the oline situation.

We are talking about win loss record......coaching comes into play with that.  Remember we jettisoned nearly every key piece this team has accumulated for other players/draft picks and STILL made the playoffs.  My point there was that if the coaching is good enough to overcome premium talent then there is a possiblity that there might not be a drop off.   What is really a baseless assumption is that they will be bad before the season even starts when they found a way to win last year giving away their key pieces.   The optomist (im sorry homer to you) could also look to the fact that the defense should be a year better with more talent and a 2nd year in scheme that McDermott is installing...it made a jump last year...it could make another jump this year.   This does NOT all fall on the offense.  There are three facets to the game.  To be told the most important part of the offense (Shady) is STILL here and they upgraded the RB behind him.  He will once again be the focal point this year while Allen finds his way.

 

 

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

They are replacing the two best starters with two backups who were already on the team on regards to the oline.

That's a fact.

They were the backups for a reason, and the starters retired, leaving the Bills in a pickle.

It's beyond optimistic at best to assume they will be equal to last year's.

The only fact in that situation is that 2 starters are being replaced.   You want to know the last time starters were replaced?  Last year when Dawkins replaced Glenn (who was supposed to be our best OL AND THEY STILL GOT IT DONE.  Dawkins returns for a 2nd year (they do tend to get better with playing time) Groy was inserted into the lineup at times this last year WITH NO DROP OFF IN OL PERFORMANCE.  

 

This happens....players go....other players get their opportunity.  If GROY had come in last year and sucked I would be concerned myself but that was not the case.  Decause got better as the season went on.  The weak spot of the OL was and continues to be RT.

 

Once again....to admit defeat before you see the product is really "sticking your head in the sand" as you put it.  You must be the hit at the parties.

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Their receiving corps best wr just had yet another knee surgery, which objectively means he will most likely regress, but he may not, which I can accept.

Thank you so much for accepting that.  Is that because someone easily pointed out to you that Kelvin is not a speed reciever and being a big bodied catch balls in traffic guy was always his game?

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

We lost Thompson who was a decent wr, picked up Kerley, who isn't bad, and is probably a wash.

Dont look now....but your sounding optomistic

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Jones, who was pretty bad last year, tried to jump out of a window, and seems to have a huge mental block with catching the ball.

The wild card of the receivers

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Our fa QB hasn't started in a couple years, and was mediocre when throwing to arguably the great receiving corps in the NFL that year, including aj green who is incredible.

Now he's getting put behind a patchwork, inexperienced oline, with bottom of the league receivers and a inconsistant te. 

I hate to burst your bubble but do you realize that statistically Clay was the top TE in the league last year at a certain point?

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

So please, tell my why you don't see a dropoff with that group?

You just keep saying "you can't tell me my opinion is wrong!"

I'm sure your opinion is that the world is flat also, right?

This is a easy one and frankly your real problem.  You think you have the right to tell other people THEIR opinions are wrong....YOU DONT.  You think that is having a discussion it isnt.   What you should be doing is proving why YOUR opinion is right and letting people decide what they want (as if you had any control over that to begin with)

Just stick with your own opinion and worry about yourself.

[SouthNYfan]

5 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

I don't agree with this. The bolded part; I would say the same is true for all but 4 or 5 TEs in the league, and Clay is probably a better blocker than those guys. Keeping him in to block at times obviously doesn't allow him to be an outlet on those plays, but he does provide value to the passing attack in those instances. 

 

I won't disagree with you.

I don't think he's bad.

He's probably a top 15 te overall, but he's just inconsistant.

I view consistency as part of excellence.

Is he talented?

Yep.

 

Look at a pitcher in baseball.

If he's very talented but you can't rely on him every start to be good, would you call him excellent?

It talented and inconsistant?

I'll go with the latter, and save "excellent" for elite guys.

[Mark Vader]

17 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Agreed

Kb isn't very good though.

His knees are most likely shot.

Zay could be good, but as of now he couldn't catch a cold in Siberia.

The rest are unknowns, but most likely subpar.

I'm trying to be optimistic lol

The wide receiver group has question marks, but I wouldn't be dismissive of them.

 

I think Kelvin Benjamin is good, not great. He can make plays because of his size. We'll see if he's recovered from his previous injuries.

 

Zay Jones had a very rough rookie season, but that doesn't mean he won't be better. He will need more chances to prove himself.

 

The player to keep an eye on is Jeremy Kerley. I know that he's on the short side, but he has shown to be a very reliable receiver. He had a good 2017 season with the 49'ers even before Jimmy Christ was acquired. He should be our number 3 receiver.

 

The rest of the group is just a matter of who stands out. Andre Holmes is a great special teams player, but a so-so receiver. Rod Streater could be a good acquisition, but again has to show that he's better from his injury last year. The rest are either rookies or limited time players, whom we don't know what we are really getting with them.

 

There are a lot of question marks, but I don't think the Bills are in big trouble with this group as some people may think. As the season goes on, I believe that these receivers will be good enough to get the Bills points and wins.

 

Of course it also depends heavily on our QB play. Let's also not forget players like Charles Clay & Nick O'Leary, who will have to be key contributors. Not to mention Shady's abilities as a receiver too.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

We are talking about win loss record......coaching comes into play with that.  Remember we jettisoned nearly every key piece this team has accumulated for other players/draft picks and STILL made the playoffs.  My point there was that if the coaching is good enough to overcome premium talent then there is a possiblity that there might not be a drop off.   What is really a baseless assumption is that they will be bad before the season even starts when they found a way to win last year giving away their key pieces.   The optomist (im sorry homer to you) could also look to the fact that the defense should be a year better with more talent and a 2nd year in scheme that McDermott is installing...it made a jump last year...it could make another jump this year.   This does NOT all fall on the offense.  There are three facets to the game.  To be told the most important part of the offense (Shady) is STILL here and they upgraded the RB behind him.  He will once again be the focal point this year while Allen finds his way.

 

 

The only fact in that situation is that 2 starters are being replaced.   You want to know the last time starters were replaced?  Last year when Dawkins replaced Glenn (who was supposed to be our best OL AND THEY STILL GOT IT DONE.  Dawkins returns for a 2nd year (they do tend to get better with playing time) Groy was inserted into the lineup at times this last year WITH NO DROP OFF IN OL PERFORMANCE.  

 

This happens....players go....other players get their opportunity.  If GROY had come in last year and sucked I would be concerned myself but that was not the case.  Decause got better as the season went on.  The weak spot of the OL was and continues to be RT.

 

Once again....to admit defeat before you see the product is really "sticking your head in the sand" as you put it.  You must be the hit at the parties.

Thank you so much for accepting that.  Is that because someone easily pointed out to you that Kelvin is not a speed reciever and being a big bodied catch balls in traffic guy was always his game?

Dont look now....but your sounding optomistic

The wild card of the receivers

I hate to burst your bubble but do you realize that statistically Clay was the top TE in the league last year at a certain point?

This is a easy one and frankly your real problem.  You think you have the right to tell other people THEIR opinions are wrong....YOU DONT.  You think that is having a discussion it isnt.   What you should be doing is proving why YOUR opinion is right and letting people decide what they want (as if you had any control over that to begin with)

Just stick with your own opinion and worry about yourself.

 

Opinions can be wrong John.

That's just a fact.

There is so much absurdity in the fact that you don't grasp that concept that I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

Where was clay tops in the league?

3 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

The wide receiver group has question marks, but I wouldn't be dismissive of them.

 

I think Kelvin Benjamin is good, not great. He can make plays because of his size. We'll see if he's recovered from his previous injuries.

 

Zay Jones had a very rough rookie season, but that doesn't mean he won't be better. He will need more chances to prove himself.

 

The player to keep an eye on is Jeremy Kerley. I know that he's on the short side, but he has shown to be a very reliable receiver. He had a good 2017 season with the 49'ers even before Jimmy Christ was acquired. He should be our number 3 receiver.

 

The rest of the group is just a matter of who stands out. Andre Holmes is a great special teams player, but a so-so receiver. Rod Streater could be a good acquisition, but again has to show that he's better from his injury last year. The rest are either rookies or limited time players, whom we don't know what we are really getting with them.

 

There are a lot of question marks, but I don't think the Bills are in big trouble with this group as some people may think. As the season goes on, I believe that these receivers will be good enough to get the Bills points and wins.

 

Of course it also depends heavily on our QB play. Let's also not forget players like Charles Clay & Nick O'Leary, who will have to be key contributors. Not to mention Shady's abilities as a receiver too.

 

I don't think they will be very good.

Their history seems to point to this.

I would love my opinion on this to be wrong.

[John from Riverside]

22 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Opinions can be wrong John.

That's just a fact.

There is so much absurdity in the fact that you don't grasp that concept that I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

Where was clay tops in the league?

 

I don't think they will be very good.

Their history seems to point to this.

I would love my opinion on this to be wrong.

Yes....your opinion can definately be wrong.   But even though you cant grasp the concept of this you are entitled to your opinon.

 

and other people have the right to theirs without your bs.

[aristocrat]

39 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I won't disagree with you.

I don't think he's bad.

He's probably a top 15 te overall, but he's just inconsistant.

I view consistency as part of excellence.

Is he talented?

Yep.

 

Look at a pitcher in baseball.

If he's very talented but you can't rely on him every start to be good, would you call him excellent?

It talented and inconsistant?

I'll go with the latter, and save "excellent" for elite guys.

 

he had one of the most inconsistent qbs throwing him the ball. can't be consistent if the qb isn't.  clay was a very reliable guy and brings a big blocking game. i'd like to see him get a bunch more targets with the new qb.  If our qb can get that ball to him he could be in the top 7-8 te's in the league.