Roster Review/Offense

[GunnerBill]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

I was talking about this in the defense review thread.

KB wasn't all that much of a speedster or agile before the billionth knee surgery he had this offseason.

 

No Benjamin isn't that sort of receiver regardless. He is more a kind of bigger Anquan Bolden to me if you can get him healthy and focussed. If they can he is a key part of this offense. If they can't he will be a free agent next spring. 

[John from Riverside]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And they have one good knee between them.....

 

 

I have no feel for what the offense will be yet at all. I just feel like everything on that side olis subjective unless it is "Shady is gonna be vital to our offensive success again."

 

Beyond Shady and maybe Dion Dawkins I have 9 question marks for different reasons. Can Daboll piece something together that is greater than the sum of its parts? Can a Quarterback capable of winning us games emerge? Are they still going to add vets who shake loose elsewhere? 

 

Just too many questions for me to give a proper, considered, view. 

This is a very fair take.....

 

Shady is going to be the focal point of the offense......for now...its actually the perfect situation to bring along a 1st round pick QB because the pressure is not on him.

 

There are question marks (which do not automatically mean regression to some of the folks on this board....geesh)

 

You cant go into the season saying the offense is a strength.....we dont know what we have.

 

Feel pretty good about the defense though.

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

This is a very fair take.....

 

Shady is going to be the focal point of the offense......for now...its actually the perfect situation to bring along a 1st round pick QB because the pressure is not on him.

 

There are question marks (which do not automatically mean regression to some of the folks on this board....geesh)

 

You cant go into the season saying the offense is a strength.....we dont know what we have.

 

Feel pretty good about the defense though.

 

I agree with Shady being the focal point of the offense is a good thing for a young QB, having a stud RB helps to lessen the "you need to do EVERYTHING" mentality that a lot of the high 1st round picks wind up thrown into.

 

The issue is the "question marks" aren't along the lines of "we traded for Randy Moss and signed Nate Solder" they are "we picked up a few 5th and 6th round receivers, and a couple of castoff FA's from other teams and are hoping they are average at best".

 

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No Benjamin isn't that sort of receiver regardless. He is more a kind of bigger Anquan Bolden to me if you can get him healthy and focussed. If they can he is a key part of this offense. If they can't he will be a free agent next spring. 

 

Agreed.

My point was since he wasn't an agile speedster to begin with, another knee surgery most likely makes him even slower and less agile than he was before, although the flip side is he won't be hurt as much as say, a guy like Sammy or Harvin, having multiple hip injuries, since they are speedsters.

[Lfod]

Last seasons offensive performances have left me skeptical. The good news in my mind is that the winds of change swept through. At least it will look different. I'm just hoping it isn't a different kind of bad. 

 

I'm not much into evaluation of what I have not seen. I'll have my opinion after I've seen it in operation. 

 

I'm emotionally all in on the owners and McDermott and Beane. If this thing fails it will rip my heart out. My expectations are not very high but if in the end we move on to a different staff I'll be taking a hiatus from being a football fan. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Lfod

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I agree with Shady being the focal point of the offense is a good thing for a young QB, having a stud RB helps to lessen the "you need to do EVERYTHING" mentality that a lot of the high 1st round picks wind up thrown into.

 

The issue is the "question marks" aren't along the lines of "we traded for Randy Moss and signed Nate Solder" they are "we picked up a few 5th and 6th round receivers, and a couple of castoff FA's from other teams and are hoping they are average at best".

 

 

Agreed.

My point was since he wasn't an agile speedster to begin with, another knee surgery most likely makes him even slower and less agile than he was before, although the flip side is he won't be hurt as much as say, a guy like Sammy or Harvin, having multiple hip injuries, since they are speedsters.

I am not expecting any help from this year's drafted WR's honestly....anything we get is a plus

 

Kelvin Benjamin is the top WR on the team

Zay Jones is the real wild card here....they need him to be what they expected when they drafted him

Kerley is a reliable slot

Their TE's are excellent pass catchers

 

If one more player can step up and make a contribution then it will turn this group from average to halfway decent......I still like Brandon Reilly and there is a reason why the guy has been retained.

 

Its not a perfect group......I expect next year's draft and free agency to really address the situation....but its not horrible either.

[SouthNYfan]

10 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am not expecting any help from this year's drafted WR's honestly....anything we get is a plus

 

Kelvin Benjamin is the top WR on the team

Zay Jones is the real wild card here....they need him to be what they expected when they drafted him

Kerley is a reliable slot

Their TE's are excellent pass catchers

 

If one more player can step up and make a contribution then it will turn this group from average to halfway decent......I still like Brandon Reilly and there is a reason why the guy has been retained.

 

Its not a perfect group......I expect next year's draft and free agency to really address the situation....but its not horrible either.

 

 

KB is the best WR on the team.

That is not saying much.

Zay is definitely a wild card. I'm hoping he gets over whatever causes him to not be able to catch anything last year.

Kerley is a reliable slot at best.

the TE's are inconsistent at best, I would not call them "excellent pass catchers"

 

[John from Riverside]

10 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

 

KB is the best WR on the team.

That is not saying much.

Zay is definitely a wild card. I'm hoping he gets over whatever causes him to not be able to catch anything last year.

Kerley is a reliable slot at best.

the TE's are inconsistent at best, I would not call them "excellent pass catchers"

 

When I referred to you as a homer in the other thread, that is what I'm talking about, statements like "the TE's are excellent pass catchers".

The TE's ARE excellent pass catchers....and they have proven that.

 

[Dadonkadonk]

I think it is better than 50/50 Incognito comes back.  

I still like Miller to win the RG spot back.  Agree Mills is adequate to hold down the RT spot for another year.  He is near elite run blocker but may be bottom 5 pass protector.  If Dawkins does not regress they can help Mills with a TE or RB most of the time.  Dawkins really impressed me.  He couldn't beat out Mills for RT but was able to step in at LT with good success.  Maybe McD planned it that way all along to move Cordy in a trade no matter what.  Lastly, Ducasse played his best football in the final 6 games.  Maybe both he and Miller start but I really like Teller.  The Bills could use a late round gem for the OL.  

I think the OP greatly overestimates Ivory and DiMarco.  I think Ivory will be a training camp cut. He is done.  The back-up RB may not be on the roster yet.  DiMarco will make the team but he is not as good a blocker as is commonly thought.  I would like to see DiMarco used more in the passing game.  If the new OC does not then I don't see a reason to carry a FB.  Keep 4 TE and 6 WR and get rid of the FB.  

Despite the presumed lack of WR talent the base offense will be a single back with either two TE and Two WR or 3-4 WRs.  Zay got better as the season went on and kudos to McD for letting him play through the nightmare start.  KB is a star when healthy.  Clay is above average and in a contract year.  He will be quite good this year.  

I defended TT quite a bit the last two years but many of his most arrant or delayed throws were to Clay.  Clay should produce much more with a new QB and a new system.  

 

[SouthNYfan]

39 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The TE's ARE excellent pass catchers....and they have proven that.

 

and you calling other people names in a debate makes you an idiot

 

Except they haven't.

 

They are inconsistant at best.

An "excellent pass catcher" would be, you know, consistent at catching the ball, you know, all the time, in a consistent fashion.

 

Calling you a homer for, you know, acting like a homer, is just being factual imo.

You're refusing to acknowledge that the wr corps is bottom tier, and acting like our offense is anything but a question mark at best, and more than likely not going to be very good (yes, miracles happen, but all signs point to them not being very good on offense again).

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Except they haven't.

 

They are inconsistant at best.

An "excellent pass catcher" would be, you know, consistent at catching the ball, you know, all the time, in a consistent fashion.

 

Calling you a homer for, you know, acting like a homer, is just being factual imo.

You're refusing to acknowledge that the wr corps is bottom tier, and acting like our offense is anything but a question mark at best, and more than likely not going to be very good (yes, miracles happen, but all signs point to them not being very good on offense again).

This is pointless....believe what you want

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

I think the offense is much better then what people are thinking.  Really depends on how well the play is at QB position

The biggest question mark will be how the OL will come together...They will determine the production of this offensive unit

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Decent write up yet I didn't see Kerley mentioned. He is a solid 3rd down guy.

 

and no love for Chris Ivory.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

I think it is better than 50/50 Incognito comes back. 

 

Why?

 

I don't think Beane and Co will take him back if he wants to come back, personally.  I think they acknowledge his talent, but with them, you are "All In", or you're out.

[natedawg3535]

we pay our RB's the 2nd highest salary cap number in the league and we can barely stake a claim that we are in the top 10 in the league......to say that our RB situation is "outstanding" seems like a reach to me and thats not even taking into consideration the age of our RB's......ive been saying it since we signed ivory,cadet and taiwan jones way back at the begining of free agency that I didnt like the signings because I thought that we would pass on all of the talented RB's in the draft and now that we did pass on all of them, I feel like this might be a position that gives us some trouble this year and it will need to be addressed next offseason......we need to surround our new QB we more versatile young weapons at RB .WR and TE in my opinion

Edited May 21, 2018 by natedawg3535

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

I think it's too early to draw any conclusions or expectations from the offense. We don't even know which players will be on the roster in 3 months, especially at WR. TOO many question marks, IMO.

 

With that being said, I don't think our offense will be quite as bad as many people might be expecting. I think (<key word) we'll see a mix of down and zone blocking, but mostly down blocking, which hopefully leads to less runs for negative yards. And with Shady being a focal point for defenses, more play-action. But with Wood and Incognito gone, there's a bit of drop in talent there, but more important IMO is the lack of chemistry between the new offensive linemen. It could take them several games to really gel. Some might say that's a reason to not start Allen early on, so that he doesn't take a beating. Others might say that is why you should start Allen, based on his ability to extend plays. 

 

We should revisit this thread after week 3 of the preseason.

[Dr. K]

19 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

This is the 2nd roster review, special teams will be the 3rd Installment.

 

The Bills have drafted the QB of the future in Josh Allen, the question we all have is how soon that future will be.  If training camp is a truly open competition then Josh stands a good chance of starting opening day in Baltimore.  His physical skills are beyond reproach and he has the mental aptitude to learn the offensive quickly.  Whether he can translate the skill set to the NFL level is the question we will only get answers too in the upcoming months before the opening game.

 

if AJ is the clear cut winner then I feel we are in capable hands.  He has solid targets in Benjamin and Clay, a developing talent in Zay Jones, and potential with Streeter and Holmes and rookies McDonald (special teams), Prohel (slot) and Foster as a potential deep threat plus others fighting to make the team.  AJ in college showed the ability to both manage a game and throw the deep out patterns needed to open up defenses.  O'Leary adds playmaking ability and solid blocking at back-up TE, Logan Thomas has another year to develop and Lee adds goalline blocking ability.

 

The running back situation is outstanding, McCoy is still pro bowl caliber and is an outstanding receiver out of the backfield, Ivory greatly improves the running back depth and will get quality touches, lover Caderet as a 3rd down back and DiMarco is an outstanding blocker.

 

That leaves us with the big question mark, the offensive line.  Like Dawkins at LT, Mills grades are better then he looks, Newhouse and McDermott add depth.  We do need a long term answer at C, Groy and Bodine will be serviceable this season, actually like where we are at with the G position, Miller should reemerge in a new scheme, Teller may displace Duchasse and if injuries occur, Groy can slide over to G and Bodine can play at C

 

The 2018 offense will be a developing work in progress, not good enough to win games but I think can function to maybe 21 points a game and control the clock with far fewer three and outs.

 

Your thoughts and feedback are always welcome

Bless your optimistic heart; your sunny disposition must make the world a nicer place for you. This is the forecast for the Bills in Oz, where nobody ever ages and a bucket of water will melt the Wicked Witch.

 

Just one example, your running back analysis: "The running back situation is outstanding, McCoy is still pro bowl caliber and is an outstanding receiver out of the backfield, Ivory greatly improves the running back depth and will get quality touches, lover Caderet as a 3rd down back and DiMarco is an outstanding blocker."

 

McCoy was the best player on the team last season and the season before, but he will be thirty on opening day and last year he had the lowest yards per carry of his entire career, down to 4.0 from the previous year's 5.4. He is at the age when even great running backs (cf.Thurman Thomas) fall off a cliff. Ivory is also 30 and last year his YPC was a miserable 3.4, ALSO the lowest of his career. Travaris Cadet (I think that's who you must mean by "Caderet") is 29 years old and in HIS ENTIRE CAREER of nine years has gained--wait for it--180 yards. His longest gain for his career is 16 yards. Patrick DiMarco will not carry the ball at all, and he is ALSO 29 years old. The entire running back position should be on Social Security. 

 

Now maybe we can cross our fingers and hope McCoy won't get hurt and has got another decent season in him, but I will go on record that in no way will he carry the ball the 287 time he did last season, or reach the 1138 yards he gained. And if he gets hurt it's not even the JV squad behind him. 

 

I've been a Bills fan since the 1960s. I want them to do well. I think, depending on whether Allen pans out, the draft looked pretty good. I think McDermott got more out of the less-than-mediocre roster he had last season after the fire sale than anybody could reasonably have expected, but if he does it again this season he deserves the Nobel Prize for hand clapping. But I've seen too many mediocre rosters touted as competitive over the last five decades to buy into the idea that this is a strong team on paper. It's simply not. Maybe everything will come up roses and nobody will get hurt and all the draft choices will start and play at a high level, but the odds are against it. At best this is a rebuilding season, IMHO.

 

Go Bills.   

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Dr. K

[aristocrat]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And they have one good knee between them.....

 

 

I have no feel for what the offense will be yet at all. I just feel like everything on that side olis subjective unless it is "Shady is gonna be vital to our offensive success again."

 

Beyond Shady and maybe Dion Dawkins I have 9 question marks for different reasons. Can Daboll piece something together that is greater than the sum of its parts? Can a Quarterback capable of winning us games emerge? Are they still going to add vets who shake loose elsewhere? 

 

Just too many questions for me to give a proper, considered, view. 

 

that's where i'm at. can benjamin make it the whole year? can zay catcht the balls thrown to him. can kerley be a nice third option.  i think a big thing would be if oleary and clay had more production with a qb willing to take a chance and throw it to them.  ivory is a sneaky good receiver too. 

[metzelaars_lives]

18 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

top 25 is not saying much.

I'm not even sure he's that.

 

Antonio Brown

Beckham

Julio Jones

Hopkins

Allen

Green

Thomas

Baldwin

Hill

Evans

Gordon

Cooper

Hilton

Jeffry

Cooks

Robinson

Nelson

Tate

Watkins

Sanders

Edeleman

D. Thomas

Fitzgerald

 

 

that's off the top of my head

could prob put a couple others in there, but with that being said, he's not a real impact guy

 

clay is really inconsistent

prob wouldn't put him top 15 either

Amari Cooper sucks.  But there are plenty of other guys who you could put on there, so I agree with you.

Edited May 21, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[SouthNYfan]

1 minute ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Amari Cooper sucks.  But there are plenty of other guys who you could put on there, so I agree with you.

 

Haha

I don't think Cooper sucks by any means.

He had over 2200 yards in his first two seasons

Last year was a bit of a drop-off to around 659-700 but their whole team imploded last year

 

Anyway overall we agree

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

12 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Except they haven't.

 

They are inconsistant at best.

An "excellent pass catcher" would be, you know, consistent at catching the ball, you know, all the time, in a consistent fashion.

 

Calling you a homer for, you know, acting like a homer, is just being factual imo.

You're refusing to acknowledge that the wr corps is bottom tier, and acting like our offense is anything but a question mark at best, and more than likely not going to be very good (yes, miracles happen, but all signs point to them not being very good on offense again).

 

I agree with @John from Riverside. Clay and O'Leary are reliable, "excellent" pass catchers. Not too many drops between the two of them. And they're not a part of a bottom tier WR corps, they're TEs.  

 

They should be good outlets for our young/inexperienced QBs this year. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat