I like the look of this roster/Defense

[SouthNYfan]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

But then he also turned around and dumped the OC.

 

McD is pretty darn good...I dont think any of them are perfect.

Thank you for trying to set perameters on what is a unrealistic fan is.

 

How about you just worry about yourself?

 

That's the point of a discussion. 

To discuss other people's thoughts on things.

Would you like a safe corner where everybody just agrees with you, no matter what outlandish and baseless assumptions you make?

 

Losing 2 of our best oline starters is a cause for concern, and it is completely unrealistic to not be concerned about it.

 

Keep your head in the sand though.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

That's the point of a discussion. 

To discuss other people's thoughts on things.

Would you like a safe corner where everybody just agrees with you, no matter what outlandish and baseless assumptions you make?

 

Losing 2 of our best oline starters is a cause for concern, and it is completely unrealistic to not be concerned about it.

 

Keep your head in the sand though.

I am seriously wondering if you are even reading what you are typing.

 

To say something happens BEFORE it does is outlandish and baseless would you not say (I already know your answer to this)

 

Regardless...MY POINT is stop telling other people how to think and then derog them for thinking it.  Who are you to do that?

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

I agree with the idea of an improved run defense and pass rush, but I have a hard time seeing so many fumble recoveries. Same with INTs, to a lesser extent. 

 

The Bills may have scheme that sees players swarming to the ball very well, but they only recovered 25% of forced fumbles last year, near the bottom of the league rankings. I can see an increase in INTs as a result of a better pass rush.

 

And as for Edmunds, I love the pick, but I'm not expecting great results in his first year. His physical abilities should help the pass defense, but I think his biggest contributions in year one will be against the run. 

 

Overall, nice thread.

[SouthNYfan]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I am seriously wondering if you are even reading what you are typing.

 

To say something happens BEFORE it does is outlandish and baseless would you not say (I already know your answer to this)

 

Regardless...MY POINT is stop telling other people how to think and then derog them for thinking it.  Who are you to do that?

 

I'll give you an example:

-a team with no good receivers (say Buffalo) trades next year's draft picks for Julio Jones and AJ green, so it's an honest, objective assumption that their WR corps will be improved from the previous year

 

-a team with very good receivers (say Pittsburgh) trades Antonio brown and juju to another team for draft picks next year, then a Pitts fan comes out and says "we still have the best WRs in the league, they will be great!" Which is obviously biased and unrealistic when you lose your two best receivers

 

I'm not sure what's hard to understand about this.

 

Not an opinions are correct, John.

If you don't want to baseless opinion ripped to shreds then stop posting it.

[formerlyofCtown]

21 hours ago, Ifartalot said:

My chemically treated lawn looks good now and come the fall it will still look good, that can't be said about the Bills between now and then.

Are you saying they are using PEDs.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

I am concerned about the offensive line. I don't know if Wyatt Teller can start right away, or if the team has confidence in Ryan Groy to be the starter. I get the feeling that Connor McDermott will be given more opportunities in the preseason to show that he can start. All of this is a big risk.

 

Yes, our wide receiver unit overall is a mess. However, I think Kelvin Benjamin can bounce back. Yes his injury is a concern, but he's still a talented receiver. Zay Jones will be the key. He MUST improve. I really like Jeremy Kerley, he's not spectacular but dependable. Andre Holmes will have to do a lot more than be a special teams star. Then you have Rod Streater, Brandon Reilly, Ray-Ray McCloud & Austin Proehl. It's not pretty, but I think this unit could surprise some people. We will definitely need some big play help from Charles Clay & Nick O'Leary.

 

Yes, our running backs are old. However, LeSean McCoy is still an incredible player. Chris Ivory will help. After that, it gets shaky. Depth is a concern.

 

As for our quarterback situation, it will be a bit rocky. AJ McCarron will have to be the man this year. I want Josh Allen to just hold a clipboard this year. Watch and learn. I think McCarron is just average, and we'll just have to accept whatever we get from him this year.

 

As for the defense, I think they will be better. I'm not expecting them to be the top defense in the league, but our secondary could be ferocious. Don't forget that we also added Trent Murphy, who should be a big help with our pass rush, and might take pressure off of Jerry Hughes, who still draws double teams. Tremaine Edmunds will probably make some rookie mistakes, but that won't be surprising. He is a definite upgrade. I think Star Lotuleilei will be fine, especially with Kyle next to him. Let's not dismiss Shaq Lawson either.

 

I think the coaches have a lot of work to do, but we saw what they did with a lot less last season. I think that they know what they're doing. It's not going to be easy, but I think this team is capable of surprising us.

 

 

If these offensive players belonged to the Dolphins and Daboll was starting his second stint as OC in Miami how would we feel about that??    I'd definitely be chalking up two wins versus any AJ McCarron lead team.    Fair or not track record and pedigree are all you can reasonably go on.    

 

Yeah sure some could exceed expectation but.........expecting more from Andre Holmes or Streater because they had one decent season 5 years ago.........we are effectively hoping for an early 2000's Bill Belichick kinda' coaching job here.   It's a matchup league and on-paper the players on this offense look like it's not going to be favored against the man across from them.   I am not down on McDermott but I've seen enough(hiring Dennison, starting Peterman) to make me think he's a bit more of a traditional one-side-of-the-ball HC than a full-on puppet master like BB.

[Mark Vader]

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

If these offensive players belonged to the Dolphins and Daboll was starting his second stint as OC in Miami how would we feel about that??    I'd definitely be chalking up two wins versus any AJ McCarron lead team.    Fair or not track record and pedigree are all you can reasonably go on.    

 

Yeah sure some could exceed expectation but.........expecting more from Andre Holmes or Streater because they had one decent season 5 years ago.........we are effectively hoping for an early 2000's Bill Belichick kinda' coaching job here.   It's a matchup league and on-paper the players on this offense look like it's not going to be favored against the man across from them.   I am not down on McDermott but I've seen enough(hiring Dennison, starting Peterman) to make me think he's a bit more of a traditional one-side-of-the-ball HC than a full-on puppet master like BB.

With the cheating included?

[BADOLBILZ]

17 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

With the cheating included?

 

And that's kinda' the point...........BB is as good of an all-sides-of -the-ball HC as we may ever see..........but even he knew he had to cheat and was willing to do whatever it took to take a middling roster deep into the playoffs.     Marv Levy literally thought he could replicate BB's success with Dick Jauron.    Bottom line is that the best you can hope for playing it straight with a middling to poor roster is Jauron Ball results.   Aside from those cheating Pats teams nobody has won a SB without a top 10 roster since the inception of the thing.   Perhaps not even a team less than top 5 roster.   On paper this Bills team doesn't win many matchups........they are bottom 5 for sure.   Only good news is that the Dolphins and Jets are also clearly bottom half of league rosters as well.    

[Mark Vader]

21 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

And that's kinda' the point...........BB is as good of an all-sides-of -the-ball HC as we may ever see..........but even he knew he had to cheat and was willing to do whatever it took to take a middling roster deep into the playoffs.     Marv Levy literally thought he could replicate BB's success with Dick Jauron.    Bottom line is that the best you can hope for playing it straight with a middling to poor roster is Jauron Ball results.   Aside from those cheating Pats teams nobody has won a SB without a top 10 roster since the inception of the thing.   Perhaps not even a team less than top 5 roster.   On paper this Bills team doesn't win many matchups........they are bottom 5 for sure.   Only good news is that the Dolphins and Jets are also clearly bottom half of league rosters as well.    

I feel confident in what Sean McDermott & Brandon Beane are doing.

 

I don't expect miracles after just 1 season. Even though they did pull off a miracle by ending the drought. None of us saw that coming. Some people here thought we would be lucky to win 3 games last season.

 

No one can say that the Bills aren't doing what they can to improve the team. They picked up some good talent in free agency, and their draft was outstanding.

 

Still, I don't know what kind of team we are going to get this year. The offense has a lot of question marks, but I expect the defense to be much better. Can the Bills get back to the playoffs again? Maybe. I think there is reason to believe they will be in the hunt up until the very end of the season, despite how tough the schedule is.

 

Like I said, I don't expect miracles, but I am optimistic. I'm most anxious to see how these new players will work out, and what McDermott is putting together this year.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

I feel confident in what Sean McDermott & Brandon Beane are doing.

 

I don't expect miracles after just 1 season. Even though they did pull off a miracle by ending the drought. None of us saw that coming. Some people here thought we would be lucky to win 3 games last season.

 

No one can say that the Bills aren't doing what they can to improve the team. They picked up some good talent in free agency, and their draft was outstanding.

 

Still, I don't know what kind of team we are going to get this year. The offense has a lot of question marks, but I expect the defense to be much better. Can the Bills get back to the playoffs again? Maybe. I think there is reason to believe they will be in the hunt up until the very end of the season, despite how tough the schedule is.

 

Like I said, I don't expect miracles, but I am optimistic. I'm most anxious to see how these new players will work out, and what McDermott is putting together this year.

 

 

1. Jauron Ball is not a miracle.........it's a style that ultimately brings you near the 8-8 median whether your roster is talented, mediocre or bad.   

 

2. I accurately predicted here on TSW that Jauron Ball was coming so yeah I saw it coming.    You can't write off Jauron Ball in a given season.........but you can count on it ultimately failing over time.    You need to be building toward something.    

 

As for this year.........I will withhold a prediction until we see what they look like as a unit but the on paper product is not promising.   Hard to envision them trying to do anything other than muck it up again but maybe Daboll channels his inner Chip Kelly and creates something scheme-wise to cover up the mismatched talent.

 

On paper every unit looked better at this time last year than this years does now with the exception of safety(with 2 pro bowl type seasons) and LB.   Watkins and Dareus were dealt and Zay Jones and Shaq had terribly disappointing seasons.........but at this point last year optimism was sky high for all of those dudes.

Edited May 22, 2018 by BADOLBILZ

[Bill from NYC]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

And that's kinda' the point...........BB is as good of an all-sides-of -the-ball HC as we may ever see..........but even he knew he had to cheat and was willing to do whatever it took to take a middling roster deep into the playoffs.     Marv Levy literally thought he could replicate BB's success with Dick Jauron.    Bottom line is that the best you can hope for playing it straight with a middling to poor roster is Jauron Ball results.   Aside from those cheating Pats teams nobody has won a SB without a top 10 roster since the inception of the thing.   Perhaps not even a team less than top 5 roster.   On paper this Bills team doesn't win many matchups........they are bottom 5 for sure.   Only good news is that the Dolphins and Jets are also clearly bottom half of league rosters as well.    

Badol, I totally agree, especially wrt Jauron ball, but I do have a question:

 

As for the bolded, would the 2009 SB be an exception? I remember thinking that despite their records, neither the Saints nor especially the Colts (except for Manning) were all that good.

 

Not splitting hairs Bro.

[Mark Vader]

28 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1. Jauron Ball is not a miracle.........it's a style that ultimately brings you near the 8-8 median whether your roster is talented, mediocre or bad.   

 

2. I accurately predicted here on TSW that Jauron Ball was coming so yeah I saw it coming.    You can't write off Jauron Ball in a given season.........but you can count on it ultimately failing over time.    You need to be building toward something.    

 

As for this year.........I will withhold a prediction until we see what they look like as a unit but the on paper product is not promising.   Hard to envision them trying to do anything other than muck it up again but maybe Daboll channels his inner Chip Kelly and creates something scheme-wise to cover up the mismatched talent.

 

On paper every unit looked better at this time last year than this years does now with the exception of safety(with 2 pro bowl type seasons) and LB.   Watkins and Dareus were dealt and Zay Jones and Shaq had terribly disappointing seasons.........but at this point last year optimism was sky high for all of those dudes.

So are you saying that you expected Jauron Ball to end the drought last year?

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

On 5/21/2018 at 1:20 AM, Heitz said:

 

But why would he be WORSE after having surgery on a knee that was clearly causing him issues last year (the guy could barely run)?  With some surgical clean-up and rehab, he could actually be much better than last year.

 

I was a good snowboarder.  I broke my ankle. I became a bad snowboarder.  I got surgery and rehabbed.  Now I’m a good snowboarder again.  Praise Jebus!

 

As for the WR, you need to consider the entire picture of “pass catchers” especially when Shady, Clay and O’Leary were in the top four for the Bills!

 

Regardless, we’ll see how it plays out!  Give me the Kool Aid so I can Homer like Simpson! 

 

Don't you know? No WR has ever come back from knee surgery and been a better player...

 

Dude is just trying to justify his opinions by taking unknowns and putting a factual spin on them. There's no way to know for a fact that KB will not be the same player after surgery that he once was before last year, just like there's no way to know for a fact that the offensive line won't be as good or better after losing two starters. It may be a safe bet to assume that the line will not be as good, but that doesn't mean it will come true. It's just an assumption; a guess. 

On 5/21/2018 at 10:03 AM, SouthNYfan said:

 

What does that even mean?

 

Glenn was one of our top 3 linemen

Even if you disagree on that we still lost wood and incognito, who were our top 2

 

The oline has serious questions

 

Do you even know what "homer" means?

It's somebody who blindly and not objectively believes a team is better than they are, while ignoring actual evidence that they aren't.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "pissed in pants"

 

What you don't seem to understand is the fact that, just because something looks worse on paper, it doesn't mean that it will be worse. It's an unknown. You're logic isn't wrong, but you sound as if you have some magic crystal ball, and that you know for a fact that KB won't be better for having surgery, or the line won't be ok.

 

Remember last year, when the Bills lost Gilmore, Darby, Williams, etc in the secondary? And remember their replacements? Pretty much everyone thought the secondary would be the worst group on the team, based on how it looked on paper (even though most people loved the White pick). Turns out, the opposite came true.  

Edited May 23, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[Thurman#1]

On 5/21/2018 at 2:32 AM, RPbillsfan said:

As I look at the roster I see a lot of potential for this season and the seasons to follow.

 

I can see the Bills playing a 4-2-5 type of defensive scheme with a player like Siran Neal being an in-the-box safety/hybrid linebacker similar to Dion Buchannon of the Cardinals.

 

Looking at the defensive line, I see excellent depth at the tackle and end positions with a renewed ability to stop the run and generate more pressure then last year.

 

Edmunds has the potential to be an amazing game changer in the middle, long, fast and a sideline to sideline presence and his length and athletiscm should create havoc in teams passing games.

 

Milano was solid last year and will get better with more experience.

 

The secondary is outstanding in both scheme and personnel.  Our safety pairing of Hyde and Poyer are in the top 3 in the league, T White and Vontae may be top 5 and they are all playmakers.

 

I foresee 35 to 40 sacks, 20 interceptions and 12 to 15 fumble recoveries on D.

 

Feedback is always welcome and appreciated

 

 

I agree they look like they have a good foundation. I don't expect real greatness this year, but they look like they have the beginnings of a pretty tough group, though the pass rush looks questionable. They'll have to manufacture one somehow. I'm less hopeful than most here about Murphy's likely sack totals. Hopefully I'm too pessimistic here.

 

20 INTs? This year? Last year the top three were the Ravens (22), the Jags (21) and the Saints (20). And while I like our defensive backfield a lot,  I don't see us a top three D at INTs. Teams with that kind of production generally pressure the QB well or get teams behind and playing catchup. I don't see this as being that kind of a team this year.

 

And 12 to 15 recoveries would either mean we were one of the top few teams at causing fumbles (which we did last year) or been lucky at recovering a higher than normal number of those fumbles. Possible. I'd hope we're just above average.

 

Guess we'll see.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Thurman#1

[SouthNYfan]

35 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

Don't you know? No WR has ever come back from knee surgery and been a better player...

 

Dude is just trying to justify his opinions by taking unknowns and putting a factual spin on them. There's no way to know for a fact that KB will not be the same player after surgery that he once was before last year, just like there's no way to know for a fact that the offensive line won't be as good or better after losing two starters. It may be a safe bet to assume that the line will not be as good, but that doesn't mean it will come true. It's just an assumption; a guess. 

 

What you don't seem to understand is the fact that, just because something looks worse on paper, it doesn't mean that it will be worse. It's an unknown. You're logic isn't wrong, but you sound as if you have some magic crystal ball, and that you know for a fact that KB won't be better for having surgery, or the line won't be ok.

 

Remember last year, when the Bills lost Gilmore, Darby, Williams, etc in the secondary? And remember their replacements? Pretty much everyone thought the secondary would be the worst group on the team, based on how it looked on paper (even though most people loved the White pick). Turns out, the opposite came true.  

 

Benjamin has now suffered a torn ACL on his left knee, and had a meniscus tear on his right knee.

These are not minor, and in regards to a knee injury and long term performance a meniscus tear which was played on for another 6 weeks, instead of being handled immediately, is more than likely going to be a mess (I'm not pulling this out of thin air by the way, I'm a PT and deal almost exclusively on the rehab of athletes).

So, yes, we might see a miracle and he's good to go, but more than likely we will see a dropoff for him.

 

You are correct regarding the defense, many were wrong, and who knows, maybe im wrong, but on paper the surgery for KB, the lack of talent at wr last year which wasn't addressed, and the likely dropoff on the oline with just the unplanned promotion of some backups, and the huge uncertainty at QB, is that most likely our offense will see a regression, and that's okay, but my initial point was people who are recognizing this and being concerned are being called negative, being told that the offense has no need for concern, which is just absurd and basically "homerism" to not think we have legit concerns on offense this year.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

29 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Benjamin has now suffered a torn ACL on his left knee, and had a meniscus tear on his right knee.

These are not minor, and in regards to a knee injury and long term performance a meniscus tear which was played on for another 6 weeks, instead of being handled immediately, is more than likely going to be a mess (I'm not pulling this out of thin air by the way, I'm a PT and deal almost exclusively on the rehab of athletes).

So, yes, we might see a miracle and he's good to go, but more than likely we will see a dropoff for him.

 

You are correct regarding the defense, many were wrong, and who knows, maybe im wrong, but on paper the surgery for KB, the lack of talent at wr last year which wasn't addressed, and the likely dropoff on the oline with just the unplanned promotion of some backups, and the huge uncertainty at QB, is that most likely our offense will see a regression, and that's okay, but my initial point was people who are recognizing this and being concerned are being called negative, being told that the offense has no need for concern, which is just absurd and basically "homerism" to not think we have legit concerns on offense this year.

 

You did a much better job of explaining yourself here. It's possible for either outcome to be the case with KB, and the offensive line. I think the issue people may have had with your posts, and probably why I commented, was that you seemed to be "speaking in absolutes". Truth is, no one knows what will happen. Could go either way. At least you backed up your claims with solid reasoning. 

 

IRT the line; no question, the Bills lost two good/solid starters. Getting similar or better play from their replacements won't be easy, and certainly shouldn't be expected right away. But one way to look at it is by recognizing that both players were up there in years. They weren't going to be playing at a high level much longer anyways.

 

I don't know that Richie "regressed" last year, so to speak, but it did seem like his overall impact and level of play wasn't quite the same as it was the year before. Personally, I think it had more to do with the change from down blocking to zone. Still a good player, but not really being used properly, to utilize what he's best at. Same could probably be said about Miller, and that has a ripple effect across the line. Perhaps the switch to more hat on hat blocking will have more positive results, but I'm not familiar enough with their replacements to make a determination on that. I'm just going to have to trust that McBeane and the coaches know what they're doing. 

 

What I will say, is that cohesion and continuity is probably more important on the offensive line than it is with any other facet of the team. Richie and Wood (and Glenn to an extent) had 2+ years worth of games playing next to each other, and that kind of chemistry won't be replicated overnight. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I agree they look like they have a good foundation. I don't expect real greatness this year, but they look like they have the beginnings of a pretty tough group, though the pass rush looks questionable. They'll have to manufacture one somehow. I'm less hopeful than most here about Murphy's likely sack totals. Hopefully I'm too pessimistic here.

 

20 INTs? This year? Last year the top three were the Ravens (22), the Jags (21) and the Saints (20). And while I like our defensive backfield a lot,  I don't see us a top three D at INTs. Teams with that kind of production generally pressure the QB well or get teams behind and playing catchup. I don't see this as being that kind of a team this year.

 

And 12 to 15 recoveries would either mean we were one of the top few teams at causing fumbles (which we did last year) or been lucky at recovering a higher than normal number of those fumbles. Possible. I'd hope we're just above average.

 

Guess we'll see.

Its hard to guage.....but its exciting because our secondary was good with plenty of ball hawks and our pass rush was not great.

 

Insert Trent Murphy and his double digit sacks to go across from Huges.....and the upgrade of the interior of the DL and they might be able to make even more plays on the ball.

[SouthNYfan]

20 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

You did a much better job of explaining yourself here. It's possible for either outcome to be the case with KB, and the offensive line. I think the issue people may have had with your posts, and probably why I commented, was that you seemed to be "speaking in absolutes". Truth is, no one knows what will happen. Could go either way. At least you backed up your claims with solid reasoning. 

 

IRT the line; no question, the Bills lost two good/solid starters. Getting similar or better play from their replacements won't be easy, and certainly shouldn't be expected right away. But one way to look at it is by recognizing that both players were up there in years. They weren't going to be playing at a high level much longer anyways.

 

I don't know that Richie "regressed" last year, so to speak, but it did seem like his overall impact and level of play wasn't quite the same as it was the year before. Personally, I think it had more to do with the change from down blocking to zone. Still a good player, but not really being used properly, to utilize what he's best at. Same could probably be said about Miller, and that has a ripple effect across the line. Perhaps the switch to more hat on hat blocking will have more positive results, but I'm not familiar enough with their replacements to make a determination on that. I'm just going to have to trust that McBeane and the coaches know what they're doing. 

 

What I will say, is that cohesion and continuity is probably more important on the offensive line than it is with any other facet of the team. Richie and Wood (and Glenn to an extent) had 2+ years worth of games playing next to each other, and that kind of chemistry won't be replicated overnight. 

 

All fair.

I'm on board with everything you said.

I think, as I said, my biggest concern is that of the oline.

Your top two players suddenly retiring is a monkey wrench.

There was most likely no form of plan in place.

Yes I dumped a few absolutes that I prob shouldn't have, but even if they aren't absolutely going to be worse, I think it's pretty apparent that the most likely outcome is a regression.

I mean, sure, miracles happen, but the objective "absolute" that I kind of went with was that, on paper, they are worse, and that's what's should be expected.

"Hoping" they will be as good or better is not the same as saying you "think they will be" as good or better than last year.

Edited May 23, 2018 by SouthNYfan

[TPS]

They've fixed a few things, but they still lack depth at the CB position. If one of Davis or White go down, who is the back up?

[Punching Bag]

8 hours ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

I don't know that Richie "regressed" last year, so to speak, but it did seem like his overall impact and level of play wasn't quite the same as it was the year before. Personally, I think it had more to do with the change from down blocking to zone. Still a good player, but not really being used properly, to utilize what he's best at. Same could probably be said about Miller, and that has a ripple effect across the line. Perhaps the switch to more hat on hat blocking will have more positive results, but I'm not familiar enough with their replacements to make a determination on that. I'm just going to have to trust that McBeane and the coaches know what they're doing. 

 

Like the change to Rex's defense scheme when he came in, McD bringing in Denning and Juan Castillo is what caused OL and Offense to get worse. It will be up to Brian Daboll to reverse this even if he to firm and disagree on way Juan Castillo wants to do it; if Juan Castillo refuses then he will need to have Coach McDermott tell him the process is top down and Dabool makes the calls NOT him.