MMQB: Why the Browns are making a mistake with Baker Mayfield (by starting Tyrod)

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

20 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Baker Mayfield trying to get away from backup quarterback status like...

 

Look at how fast that cop walking by the curb reacts and gets to full speed in 3 steps and executes a perfect form tackle. We need this guy backing up Edmunds.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, PIZ said:

For those that watched or remembered Taylor at Bills practices, did he excel there?  Did he look like a starter in practice.  Obviously games he always didn't, but did he look great in practice?

 

The Browns might be in for a shock if Taylor excels in practice and then flops in the games.

 

It varied. 

 

As I recall, Taylor looked pretty good in preseason in 2015.  It was clearly Taylor >> Cassel >> Manuel (I know, low bar there) but  still - Taylor looked like he might be something and have something.  Then in the season, he also showed flashes - things you wanted him to work on, but overall best QBing we'd seen since before Fitzy got his ribs smashed in/big contract (depending upon which you credit for his decline).

 

Last preseason, both Taylor and Peterman looked pretty impotent in preseason and so did the run game.  Dennison made excuses, that they were trying to develop Taylor and would use him differently during the season.  Lo and behold, regular season same thing.

 

IF Haley looks at film carefully and crafts a run and passing game to Taylor's strengths, I would expect him to look pretty much the same in preseason and regular season for many games.  Really stout Ds, he'll struggle.  But I think that's a legit IF - my personal impression is that Haley is a giant flaming ego encased in human skin.  So who knows.

 

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Did you just start watching the Bills in 2017? 

 

The Bills were among the best in the league at deep passing plays before the new regime basically stripped the team of and deep threat/legitimate WR. With a healthy Watkins and Goodwin the guy was GREAT at the deep passing game. 

 

?. He checked down practically every time? There's a well thought out statement. I'll say it again. Some fans just don't know what they are watching at the QB position. 

 

Tyrods a solid QB to have if you have some good pieces around him. Cleveland will be a lot better this year. Better than the Bills, IMO.(cue the, "GO BE A BROWNS FAN THEN!" Reaction).

 

 

 

I've watched them since the '80s, thank you.  Sadly it's obvious you've got rose-tinted glasses glued to your skull.  I get it, you're a blind TT fan.  It's just amusing you rail against others for not knowing what they are watching when you're doing the exact same thing.

[Chicken Boo]

The same characters seem to think Baker Mayfield is the best prospect since Elway.

 

Personally, I think he's going to be decent but nowhere near great.  A step above Jeff Garcia.

[transplantbillsfan]

7 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Again, they aren’t saying that the Browns should just name mayfield the starter now either. They are saying they should give him an opportunity to win the starting job in camp.The Browns are saying they won’t do that with Mayfield. The Bills are saying they will do that with Allen. 

 

If they actually believe in their scouting process, why not declare Mayfield the starter right now? Why give even one of No. 1 pick’s reps to the guy you acquired with the 65th pick?

 

What stinks is a few weeks into August, after Jackson has pointlessly given hundreds of Mayfield’s valuable practice reps to Taylor, Jackson will come out and announce Mayfield the starter, saying how they’re blown away at how quickly Mayfield has come along. They shouldn’t be—he’s the guy they chose over literally everyone else in this draft.

 

Really? 

[The Frankish Reich]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:29 AM, StHustle said:

 

You are silly to think Mayfield will be better than or even equal to Tyrod by the start of the regular season. Not sure if you are serious or trolling.

 

As far as the article stating the Browns should declare Mayfield the starter right now shows the author may even have a lower football IQ than you uticaclub.

Well, then, add me to your list of silly people. I fully believe Mayfield will be better than Tyrod by the end of preseason, in exactly the same way that Russell Wilson was clearly better than Matt Flynn by the end of preseason, or that Ben Roethlisberger was clearly better than Tommy Maddox at the end of preseason. I'm not saying Mayfield will be the next Ben or even the next Wilson, but I am saying that Tyrod is the current Tommy Maddox or Matt Flynn. 

EDIT: Regarding Matt Flynn ... why did his career end so abruptly? One year he's the big contract new Seahawks starter beaten out by a fantastic rookie, then a year or two later he can't even stick with a Bills team forced to start Jeff Tuel. Did his arm give out? Why did he never get another legitimate chance even as a backup? I mean, could he be worse than Matt Cassell?

Edited May 13, 2018 by The Frankish Reich
Because I think boring thoughts after a huge 3 Bloody Mary brunch with Mom

[harv shitz]

On 5/12/2018 at 1:29 PM, StHustle said:

 

You are silly to think Mayfield will be better than or even equal to Tyrod by the start of the regular season. Not sure if you are serious or trolling.

 

As far as the article stating the Browns should declare Mayfield the starter right now shows the author may even have a lower football IQ than you uticaclub.

There is no way Mayfield WON'T be better than Tyrod! Tyrod was easily one of the worst three starters in the league last year! We would have beat Jacksonville in playoffs had we had even close to average quarterback play! I thank god everyday we don't have to see him in a Bills uniform ever again!

 

[Kelly the Dog]

The Browns are an enigma. We have no clue how their line is going to perform for example. They are potentially really explosive on offense. If Josh Gordon is back, the WR corps of Gordon, Landry and Coleman is scary. Tyrod could play well enough to keep mayfield on bench just because Hue is fighting for his job. This will be interesting to watch. 

 

Im a Tyrod fan and I think the Browns should start Mayfield. They are going to look pretty good if they start Tyrod. It will be tough to bench him. 

[YoloinOhio]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

If they actually believe in their scouting process, why not declare Mayfield the starter right now? Why give even one of No. 1 pick’s reps to the guy you acquired with the 65th pick?

 

What stinks is a few weeks into August, after Jackson has pointlessly given hundreds of Mayfield’s valuable practice reps to Taylor, Jackson will come out and announce Mayfield the starter, saying how they’re blown away at how quickly Mayfield has come along. They shouldn’t be—he’s the guy they chose over literally everyone else in this draft.

 

Really? 

My bad - I missed that this author went that far with it. I think the prevailing thought in other pieces I’ve seen  is simply that they should give him a chance to win the starting job. Not that he should be handed it (none of them should) . But yeah I don’t see any team declaring the rookie the starter either before he takes a snap in practice. . That’s dumb. 

[Bing Bong]

12 hours ago, PeterGriffin said:

And then defenses figured him out. Go root for Cleveland as your pathetic schtick is old and lame!

Let it go, he has plenty of years left in his career and is well regarded in the NFL. Not a Bill, now just a QB I'd enjoy watching

[ColoradoBills]

14 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I will disagree with your first 2 parts completely.

 

They traded for TT first, but they have had the number 1 pick locked up since near the middle of the season - so it is not like they won the lottery and now had to ID their QB.  They had been scouting these guys for over 1 year by this point.  Having TT is not a bad plan, but much like Buffalo - put it out there - we want the best man for the job.  

 

I agree that TT may win some games, but I do not think he will give the OC any kind of read on the players or the system.  That is exactly what happened in Buffalo and Haley is much less flexible in Cleveland than Dennison was here.  Just look at his treatment of Ben in Pittsburgh- no audibles - things like that where Ben got little input.  How is TT going to react when Haley wants him to throw a short crossing route an a three step drop to Landry and the guy is open, but TT holds the ball and scrambles or is sacked.  

 

This is what Sal talked about all year and why Dennison was frustrated with TT - the offensive was designed for a lot of quick throws off from breaks, but if you QB holds the ball the route combos are destroyed and now you are looking for a new spot to throw.  I think this gets amplified in Cleveland because Mayfield can do that type of throw and will show that in the preseason.

 

The last part is spot on training camp and preseason games are nothing like a regular season game, but where will he learn more - on the bench or in the game.  You know at some point he will be starting - just state we are having a competition and may the best QB win.  More than likely it should be TT, but if Mayfield looks good - his era starts now.

 

You make a lot of good points in your reply.  Fans have different opinions on a rookie QB starting role as do GM's and NFL coaches. 

I do believe whether to start a rookie QB who is "looking good" in TC and Preseason is not a "one size fits all" decision.

As to Cleveland and the TT/Mayfield (or whoever they selected) choice I believe having TT start the season is right.  I understand your

comment on Cleveland knowing they had the 1st pick but I cannot say for certain when they decided on Mayfield as the pick.

 

One thing for certain is Cleveland aggressively had sought out a veteran QB for months.  They were in the Alex Smith trade talks and

certainly gave the Bills a decent draft pick and are paying TT 16 million this year for his services.  I don't think enough people are putting

themselves in Cleveland's shoes.  The coaches/players/fans and ownership have suffered watching their team fail badly for years.

Barring a complete meltdown of TT as an NFL QB starting the season with him could be a very good move for them IMO.

TT will struggle in games just like he did in Buffalo and Mayfield can come in with no pressure and slowly he will become the starter.

 

I can imagine a scenario where Mayfield starts the season and struggles to win a game and the team goes 0-4.  What good does

that do anyone.  I know lots of people say 1.)  Play the best player from TC and Preseason and/or 2).  A rookie can only learn by playing.

I just don't see that a handful of 1st season games is going to make any difference in a rookie QB development.  I can see a scenario

where a rookie can be overwhelmed and regress hurting his development.  Once a team decides to start a rookie on opening day it is

a done deal, you can't un-ring the bell.

 

What Cleveland and the Bills do will be very interesting.  I know my preference is not very popular with many but I think it is best for both the

team(s) and the player(s).

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

You make a lot of good points in your reply.  Fans have different opinions on a rookie QB starting role as do GM's and NFL coaches. 

I do believe whether to start a rookie QB who is "looking good" in TC and Preseason is not a "one size fits all" decision.

As to Cleveland and the TT/Mayfield (or whoever they selected) choice I believe having TT start the season is right.  I understand your

comment on Cleveland knowing they had the 1st pick but I cannot say for certain when they decided on Mayfield as the pick.

 

One thing for certain is Cleveland aggressively had sought out a veteran QB for months.  They were in the Alex Smith trade talks and

certainly gave the Bills a decent draft pick and are paying TT 16 million this year for his services.  I don't think enough people are putting

themselves in Cleveland's shoes.  The coaches/players/fans and ownership have suffered watching their team fail badly for years.

Barring a complete meltdown of TT as an NFL QB starting the season with him could be a very good move for them IMO.

TT will struggle in games just like he did in Buffalo and Mayfield can come in with no pressure and slowly he will become the starter.

 

I can imagine a scenario where Mayfield starts the season and struggles to win a game and the team goes 0-4.  What good does

that do anyone.  I know lots of people say 1.)  Play the best player from TC and Preseason and/or 2).  A rookie can only learn by playing.

I just don't see that a handful of 1st season games is going to make any difference in a rookie QB development.  I can see a scenario

where a rookie can be overwhelmed and regress hurting his development.  Once a team decides to start a rookie on opening day it is

a done deal, you can't un-ring the bell.

 

What Cleveland and the Bills do will be very interesting.  I know my preference is not very popular with many but I think it is best for both the

team(s) and the player(s).

That’s what the Browns did last year, and they did “un-ring the Bell” with Kizer and it was a disaster. He started out 3rd on the depth chart behind Osweiler and Kessler and then they just said !@#$ it and cut Osweiler, names Kizer the starter and signed hogan for depth. They had almost zero experience in the QB room and no OC! Hue kept benching Kizer and bringing him back and benching him again. Smh. 

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, harv shitz said:

There is no way Mayfield WON'T be better than Tyrod! Tyrod was easily one of the worst three starters in the league last year! We would have beat Jacksonville in playoffs had we had even close to average quarterback play! I thank god everyday we don't have to see him in a Bills uniform ever again!

 

 

I really hope you're not expecting to be taken seriously.

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

That’s what the Browns did last year, and they did “un-ring the Bell” with Kizer and it was a disaster. He started out 3rd on the depth chart behind Osweiler and Kessler and then they just said !@#$ it and cut Osweiler, names Kizer the starter and signed hogan for depth. They had almost zero experience in the QB room and no OC! Hue kept benching Kizer and bringing him back and benching him again. Smh. 

 

Exactly my point.  But once Kizer started the bell was rung, which was my point that way.  Benching him after the fact is devastating to some

of these young guys.  I don't think Cleveland's GM and coaching staff will do that again.  Thus, the early TT announcement.

 

I've said this in other posts, bringing in a rookie NON-QB's is easy.  A RB or a WR can be brought in for a play here and a play there.

A QB scheduled to start is a completely different thing.  I guess that's why it's such a tough position to master.

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Exactly my point.  But once Kizer started the bell was rung, which was my point that way.  Benching him after the fact is devastating to some

of these young guys.  I don't think Cleveland's GM and coaching staff will do that again.  Thus, the early TT announcement.

 

I've said this in other posts, bringing in a rookie NON-QB's is easy.  A RB or a WR can be brought in for a play here and a play there.

A QB scheduled to start is a completely different thing.  I guess that's why it's such a tough position to master.

I really see both sides. There hasn’t been a  QB drafted in the 1st rd in the last 12 drafts to sit his whole first year and then turn into a franchise QB ... if Mahomes does it he will be the next. I think like others have said, they probably plan to bench TT at some point if warranted and put in mayfield. Kind of how they did things with Hoyer/Manziel. Hue has a quick trigger on QBs but it’s usually more when they throw picks, which isn’t TT’s issue. Haley might go ballistic though if he doesn’t get rid of the ball.. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

(..)

The Bills were among the best in the league at deep passing plays before the new regime basically stripped the team of and deep threat/legitimate WR. With a healthy Watkins and Goodwin the guy was GREAT at the deep passing game. 

(..)

Tyrods a solid QB to have if you have some good pieces around him. Cleveland will be a lot better this year. Better than the Bills, IMO.(cue the, "GO BE A BROWNS FAN THEN!" Reaction).

 

I think there are too many unknowns to say that yet.

 

What we know is that Taylor has demonstrated the ability to win games, given an offense that plays to his strengths, a strong run game, and receivers who gain the sort of separation Taylor needs them to gain before he'll throw it. 

 

Will Haley be that OC who uses Taylor correctly?  Will their rookie LT step up and their OL gel?  Is Crowell enough of a runner to keep Taylor's feet quiet?  Will their WR corps, which now looks good on paper, look as good on the field?  Can Josh Gordon keep his a** clean under the stress of a football season?  Dunno.  Lots of unknowns.

 

So then flip to us, and ask, McCarron has a limited data set where he demonstrated the ability to win games.  Can he succeed with a lesser OL and ordinary WR?  Will our OL, having lost so many pieces and without a big name addition, outperform expectations?   Is Allen actually as close to ready as McDermott hints?

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I really see both sides. There hasn’t been a  QB drafted in the 1st rd in the last 12 drafts to sit his whole first year and then turn into a franchise QB ... if Mahomes does it he will be the next. I think like others have said, they probably plan to bench TT at some point if warranted and put in mayfield. Kind of how they did things with Hoyer/Manziel. Hue has a quick trigger on QBs but it’s usually more when they throw picks, which isn’t TT’s issue. Haley might go ballistic though if he doesn’t get rid of the ball.. 

 

I don't think most highly rated rookie QB's need to sit a full year.  I do believe in having them avoid the first few games.

I think by having them watch the speed of the game on the sidelines and how the offense is suppose to execute the game plan

is pretty valuable to a rookie.  Having a few games of film with the offense can only benefit too.

 

Time will tell I guess, it sure would be fun to watch the Bills and Browns fight for their respective divisions in the future.  I would like that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well, then, add me to your list of silly people. I fully believe Mayfield will be better than Tyrod by the end of preseason, in exactly the same way that Russell Wilson was clearly better than Matt Flynn by the end of preseason, or that Ben Roethlisberger was clearly better than Tommy Maddox at the end of preseason. I'm not saying Mayfield will be the next Ben or even the next Wilson, but I am saying that Tyrod is the current Tommy Maddox or Matt Flynn. 

EDIT: Regarding Matt Flynn ... why did his career end so abruptly? One year he's the big contract new Seahawks starter beaten out by a fantastic rookie, then a year or two later he can't even stick with a Bills team forced to start Jeff Tuel. Did his arm give out? Why did he never get another legitimate chance even as a backup? I mean, could he be worse than Matt Cassell?

 

I realize it's fashionable to dis on Taylor.  You do realize in terms of demonstrated abilities, he's got a far larger body of work as a QB, higher in quality, than either Maddox or Flynn?  And that's without taking into consideration the threat he poses with his feet.

 

It is possible that Mayfield will clearly be better by the end of preseason.  However, he does have a few handicaps that I don't think Wilson or Roethlisberger had.  #1, he does have a higher bar to clear, if the offense is one at all suitable for Tyrod.  #2, he does need to learn to take snaps under center.  And #3, he does need to learn to find his passing lanes - Wilson and Taylor both compensate for this by moving the sticks with their feet.  Mayfield can't.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I realize it's fashionable to dis on Taylor.  You do realize in terms of demonstrated abilities, he's got a far larger body of work as a QB, higher in quality, than either Maddox or Flynn?  And that's without taking into consideration the threat he poses with his feet.

 

It is possible that Mayfield will clearly be better by the end of preseason.  However, he does have a few handicaps that I don't think Wilson or Roethlisberger had.  #1, he does have a higher bar to clear, if the offense is one at all suitable for Tyrod.  #2, he does need to learn to take snaps under center.  And #3, he does need to learn to find his passing lanes - Wilson and Taylor both compensate for this by moving the sticks with their feet.  Mayfield can't.

You are correct that Tyrod has a far larger body of work than Maddox or Flynn, but Maddox and Flynn weren't useless placeholders. In fact, at the time there were a lot of people in Pittsburgh and Seattle who thought that those guys were perfectly serviceable NFL starters.  In other words, not so different from Tyrod Taylor. I also think Mayfield will adjust very rapidly to the pro game, and I believe that the Browns' coaching staff will be able to say, without stretching it to get their desired result, that Mayfield gives them the best chance to win right from the start. But regarding your first point, which is a good one:  if the system is rigged, it'll be rigged in favor of Mayfield's skills, not Tyrod's. 

[Thurman#1]

On 5/13/2018 at 2:16 AM, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/11/mistake-browns-are-making-baker-mayfield

 

 

Benoit's a smart guy but he's wrong here.

 

Jackson has seen how Mayfield has handled the playbook and Benoit hasn't. Jackson knows what verbiage, playbook, responsibilities, route trees and progressions Mayfield used in college an awful lot better than Benoit does. Jackson knows how well the OL is likely to be better than Benoit. He's spent more time with Mayfield. He simply has more data to make the decision with.

 

Having said that, I think Hue is bloviating when he says it won't change. It might. It'll depend on how things go with the two. Of course they expect Mayfield to be the guy, but they may well have a plan to sit him for a fair amount of time. He'll get his chance, but when that chance will be is Hue's decision.