Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said: You might not care, but the Bills might have. The thing is... there's a pretty decent chance that him being a douche is a contributing factor to him being the 4th QB drafted and why several teams (including the Bills, apparently) took him off their boards completely. Hell, there were reports on Buffalo looking at Rosen up to draft day. https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2018/04/buffalo_bills_did_late_work_on_ucla_qb_josh_rosen_says_jason_lacanfora.amp They did some late work on Rosen, doubling back with people who know him well, going over his personality and how to reach him and connect with him. I guess I'll just ask this--if it was all about injury history and risk as to why the Bills took both Mayfield and Rosen off their boards, why did they waste so much time in one-on-one's with them (I think Beane spent significantly more time with those 2 than with Allen) and even use 2 of our limited pre draft visits getting to know them? I'm a little mystified how you know exactly how much time Beane spent with the various draft candidates? Are you his admin or otherwise have inner knowledge of his schedule? I was pretty stoked about draft gossip this year and I have no clue. As far as using pre draft visits, in order to conduct a medical examination the draftee must be brought to the team's facility. That is also the only time a team can administer other tests, such as football knowledge tests. It's not just a 'getting to know you' junket, but it does happen that details came out on team medical exam that scare some teams off. As far as what's reported pre-draft, there's so much stuff I don't know how one would sort out what's truth and what's smokescreen. If I were the Bills and I wanted Allen (for example), I might put it out there that I'm really circling around Rosen. Truth? Or even if true, reflection of genuine interest? Who knows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 On 5/9/2018 at 4:50 PM, transplantbillsfan said: Welp... I'm sorry... I'm not in here all moments of the day. Actually, I haven't had the chance to be in here talking Bills football as much as I used to for months now. I followed protocol. I literally scrolled down to the bottom and looked at the thread titles of the first 3 pages and didn't see the topic. If it's been talked about for many days now, that thread wasn't in the first 3 pages after I read the MMQB and thought about posting it. you good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm a little mystified how you know exactly how much time Beane spent with the various draft candidates? Are you his admin or otherwise have inner knowledge of his schedule? I was pretty stoked about draft gossip this year and I have no clue. As far as using pre draft visits, in order to conduct a medical examination the draftee must be brought to the team's facility. That is also the only time a team can administer other tests, such as football knowledge tests. It's not just a 'getting to know you' junket, but it does happen that details came out on team medical exam that scare some teams off. As far as what's reported pre-draft, there's so much stuff I don't know how one would sort out what's truth and what's smokescreen. If I were the Bills and I wanted Allen (for example), I might put it out there that I'm really circling around Rosen. Truth? Or even if true, reflection of genuine interest? Who knows. All fair enough. I'm just going by what was public in terms of pre draft meetings... and there were plenty with Mayfield and Rosen. The injury history may have been a concern, but I'm a little mystified that you would think personality would not be something Beane and particularly McDermott are very very seriously considering in building a roster... or that personality for the 2 biggest red flagged QBs of the draft couldn't have possibly been a part of reportedly taking both guys off their board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: All fair enough. I'm just going by what was public in terms of pre draft meetings... and there were plenty with Mayfield and Rosen. The injury history may have been a concern, but I'm a little mystified that you would think personality would not be something Beane and particularly McDermott are very very seriously considering in building a roster... or that personality for the 2 biggest red flagged QBs of the draft couldn't have possibly been a part of reportedly taking both guys off their board. The problem with your stance here is that you have made the "leap" in assuming Rosen and Mayfield were "off their board" Their rankings may very well have been -darnold -Allen -Rosen -Mayfield They could have had all 4 on their board, even if they felt there were some personality issues. They might also have removed a couple. We don't know. The know this: -Rosen and Mayfield had concussion issues -Mayfield and Rosen are both small, but Mayfield seems a bit more sturdy frame for his size -Rosen had a bad soft tissue injury to his throwing shoulder -Allen had a shattered collarbone which he missed an entire year, but those are more stable afterwards than the shoulder injury Rosen had -Allen is bigger and looks to be more sturdily built than Rosen or Mayfield -Rosen is less mobile than Allen, has a slower release, and seems to get hit bigger/harder and more often More likely than not, those things played heavily on their decisions, moreso than any attitude/personality concerns in the end. Sure, they care about those things, and if all things were equal, I'm sure they'd matter. You have surmised that they mattered enough to remove two guys from their board, one of whom went #1 so it didn't matter, and the other went soon after our pick, which we may have taken Rosen at #7 if Allen was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: All fair enough. I'm just going by what was public in terms of pre draft meetings... and there were plenty with Mayfield and Rosen. The injury history may have been a concern, but I'm a little mystified that you would think personality would not be something Beane and particularly McDermott are very very seriously considering in building a roster... or that personality for the 2 biggest red flagged QBs of the draft couldn't have possibly been a part of reportedly taking both guys off their board. See, I don't think it's smart to go by "what was public". For all we know, the Bills had Mayfield and Rosen both at 11-20 slots. I'm also more than a little mystified about exactly what I said that you might have interpreted as the bolded. I don't see anything that I wrote that seems reasonably interpreted as "couldn't have possibly been a part" or "personality would not be something they would seriously consider". I'll put my position out there: I think the #1 thing to consider with a player is how they perform on the field: their ability to read a D, make good decisions, and deliver. I think teams get led down the garden path if they fall in love with how a guy looks in shorts. That's not the same thing as saying you don't seriously consider other factors, such as athleticism, character, learning ability etc. Those things are all part of your process. But you drive the decision with proven performance. Otherwise there's no way to sugar coat it, you're taking a risk. Athleticism and character don't matter if a guy can't make rapid reads and decisions and throw accurately and consistently on Sunday. Now it may be a justified risk to draft Allen - I think we're seeing a pattern where Beane is a high risk/high reward kind of guy and the Bills have faith in their player development. It may be a mitigated risk - hopefully Beane and co. did a "deep dive" and learned some of what looks like bad decisions was play design, or a WR route issue, whatevs. But it's a risk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 (edited) Well the Cards apparently wanted Allen badly as well and were trying to trade up to get him but didnt have anywhere near the assets we did to do it...plus they were already behind us in the first round so even the first round pick the Bucs were getting was higher with us at 12 than the Cards at 15. It was said they were "heartbroken" when we took Allen. Edited May 20, 2018 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 40 minutes ago, matter2003 said: Well the Cards apparently wanted Allen badly as well and were trying to trade up to get him but didnt have anywhere near the assets we did to do it...plus they were already behind us in the first round so even the first round pick the Bucs were getting was higher with us at 12 than the Cards at 15. It was said they were "heartbroken" when we took Allen. Yeah they definitely waited Allen. They obviously had Rosen on their board but not as high, which is how we are too. The assertions earlier in the thread that Rosen and Mayfield were completely off the board because of personality is a big leap, and highly unlikely that it weighed heavier than the injury/durability concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 I am very great-full that Beane didn't not part with next years first. I have absolutley no idea where this team will finish next year record wise. Could be picking top 5 or could be picking in the early 20's again. With that uncertainty we need that draft pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 On 5/9/2018 at 6:34 PM, Success said: I think these kinds of discussions are fascinating. Whatever truth there is behind how things played out has such an impact on how the next decade or so goes for us as fans. I personally feel that they just loved Allen. They probably had Darnold higher, but I doubt it was much of a gap, and once the Jets made their trade it was going to be Allen, or no trade and take Jackson or someone else later on. The more I see of Rosen, the gladder I am. Hard guy to root for, and he has an intangible that really works against him. He feels like he’s the best already. 100% agree with everything here. You can see it in their emotions. Beane is just GUSHING talking about how he got Allen. Darnold was probably the consensus choice but Beane had to know that if he wanted Darnold he HAD to make the trade for #2. Not doing that shows they had already settled on Allen, so if anything the gap was not large. As for Rosen, I can totally see him playing well for 3-5 years, claiming injury, and "retiring" to a second career making as much as he would in football without having to get beat on. If he does stay in football, I can see him going team to team, always asking for better compensation, playing well but never really gelling with the players or staff. Not a franchise kind of guy, either way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'll put my position out there: I think the #1 thing to consider with a player is how they perform on the field: their ability to read a D, make good decisions, and deliver. I think teams get led down the garden path if they fall in love with how a guy looks in shorts. That's not the same thing as saying you don't seriously consider other factors, such as athleticism, character, learning ability etc. Those things are all part of your process. But you drive the decision with proven performance. Otherwise there's no way to sugar coat it, you're taking a risk. Athleticism and character don't matter if a guy can't make rapid reads and decisions and throw accurately and consistently on Sunday. Now it may be a justified risk to draft Allen - I think we're seeing a pattern where Beane is a high risk/high reward kind of guy and the Bills have faith in their player development. It may be a mitigated risk - hopefully Beane and co. did a "deep dive" and learned some of what looks like bad decisions was play design, or a WR route issue, whatevs. But it's a risk. I agree with this. Darnold and Allen may have more risk. I also think they have higher ceilings. Bills' evaluators, however, may even have concluded that a fella like Rosen was just as much a risk as Allen (factoring in durability concerns or locker room fit) with less upside. No way to know how a player matches an individual team's criteria. Almost impossible to eliminate risk from the equation, particularly at qb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrod's friend Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 On 5/9/2018 at 4:34 PM, transplantbillsfan said: Okay I vaguely remember Gunner's post. I was mainly thinking about this as I read Peter King's MMQB today and saw the Bills were trying to trade up with the Colts. If Rosen was legitimately off Buffalo's board, then I think the persistence of trading up while Arizona was reportedly also trying to do that for the same QB is pretty telling... I also think Arizona's changing narrative of now suddenly claiming they liked Rosen more than Allen is entertaining.https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2018/5/8/17329316/the-arizona-cardinals-were-never-in-on-josh-allen-because-of-the-price Given that their GM did NOT overpay by 30% or more to get a QB, I don't think the narrative is "changing". The proof is in what they actually did do and what they didn't do. Don't see the need to toss shade on a GM that got what was universally seen as the most pro-ready QB to back up what is universally seen as the most brittle starter and for not overpaying to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 5 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: The problem with your stance here is that you have made the "leap" in assuming Rosen and Mayfield were "off their board" Their rankings may very well have been -darnold -Allen -Rosen -Mayfield They could have had all 4 on their board, even if they felt there were some personality issues. They might also have removed a couple. We don't know. The know this: -Rosen and Mayfield had concussion issues -Mayfield and Rosen are both small, but Mayfield seems a bit more sturdy frame for his size -Rosen had a bad soft tissue injury to his throwing shoulder -Allen had a shattered collarbone which he missed an entire year, but those are more stable afterwards than the shoulder injury Rosen had -Allen is bigger and looks to be more sturdily built than Rosen or Mayfield -Rosen is less mobile than Allen, has a slower release, and seems to get hit bigger/harder and more often More likely than not, those things played heavily on their decisions, moreso than any attitude/personality concerns in the end. Sure, they care about those things, and if all things were equal, I'm sure they'd matter. You have surmised that they mattered enough to remove two guys from their board, one of whom went #1 so it didn't matter, and the other went soon after our pick, which we may have taken Rosen at #7 if Allen was gone. My "leap" was based on the earlier criticism of me even starting this thread because of Gunner's thread stating that Mayfield and Rosen were off the our board. Might not be true, but that was my basis... not something I randomly came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: See, I don't think it's smart to go by "what was public". For all we know, the Bills had Mayfield and Rosen both at 11-20 slots. I'm also more than a little mystified about exactly what I said that you might have interpreted as the bolded. I don't see anything that I wrote that seems reasonably interpreted as "couldn't have possibly been a part" or "personality would not be something they would seriously consider". I'll put my position out there: I think the #1 thing to consider with a player is how they perform on the field: their ability to read a D, make good decisions, and deliver. I think teams get led down the garden path if they fall in love with how a guy looks in shorts. That's not the same thing as saying you don't seriously consider other factors, such as athleticism, character, learning ability etc. Those things are all part of your process. But you drive the decision with proven performance. Otherwise there's no way to sugar coat it, you're taking a risk. Athleticism and character don't matter if a guy can't make rapid reads and decisions and throw accurately and consistently on Sunday. Now it may be a justified risk to draft Allen - I think we're seeing a pattern where Beane is a high risk/high reward kind of guy and the Bills have faith in their player development. It may be a mitigated risk - hopefully Beane and co. did a "deep dive" and learned some of what looks like bad decisions was play design, or a WR route issue, whatevs. But it's a risk. I understand your position completely and don't entirely disagree. It's part of why on draft day I threw my phone against the wall when I heard the name "Allen" rather than "Rosen." But what I asked initially in the thread was what was weighing on the Buffalo Bills/McBeane's mind, not Hapless Bills Fan's mind. You said you think it was more an injury thing as to why we clearly coveted Allen over Rosen. I think that's probably a part of it, but with the sheer number of meet n greets and pre draft visits and so on the Bills had combined with a Head Coach who, to me, is very much about culture and humility and personality, I think they clearly liked Rosen on the football field but we were trying to see how well his personality and demeanor would fit in with Buffalo (team more than city, but city, too) as much as anything, and they really didn't think he was a fit. Edited May 20, 2018 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said: My "leap" was based on the earlier criticism of me even starting this thread because of Gunner's thread stating that Mayfield and Rosen were off the our board. Might not be true, but that was my basis... not something I randomly came up with. And what was Gunner's basis for it, out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with the thread, other than the one that said that rudolph was our #3 QB, is that the thread you are referring to? (this is honest questions by the way) 56 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: I understand your position completely and don't entirely disagree. It's part of why on draft day I threw my phone against the wall when I heard the name "Allen" rather than "Rosen." But what I asked initially in the thread was what was weighing on the Buffalo Bills/McBeane's mind, not Hapless Bills Fan's mind. You said you think it was more an injury thing as to why we clearly coveted Allen over Rosen. I think that's probably a part of it, but with the sheer number of meet n greets and pre draft visits and so on the Bills had combined with a Head Coach who, to me, is very much about culture and humility and personality, I think they clearly liked Rosen on the football field but we were trying to see how well his personality and demeanor would fit in with Buffalo (team more than city, but city, too) as much as anything, and they really didn't think he was a fit. How did your phone take it? : ) Edited May 20, 2018 by SouthNYfan clarification on first response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 20, 2018 Author Share Posted May 20, 2018 3 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: And what was Gunner's basis for it, out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with the thread, other than the one that said that rudolph was our #3 QB, is that the thread you are referring to? (this is honest questions by the way) Yes, that was the thread. 3 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: How did your phone take it? : ) I have a flip phone and those things are tanks, so I just put the battery back in the phone, put the back cover back on and turned it on. All good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Yes, that was the thread. I have a flip phone and those things are tanks, so I just put the battery back in the phone, put the back cover back on and turned it on. All good Glad the phone's okay! I remember that thread. I think it was his speculation too, but I'm not sure if I remember the reasoning. It's obvious that Rosen was below Allen in their eyes, since they drafted Allen ahead of Rosen. Allen may have been their #1, 2 or 3 though. We will never know. Rudolph could have been behind Rosen and Jackson too for all we know. I honestly think that the personality stuff mattered to an extent, but much less so than the physical stuff (injury concerns namely), as well as the physical measurable such as release time, ball velocity, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: I understand your position completely and don't entirely disagree. It's part of why on draft day I threw my phone against the wall when I heard the name "Allen" rather than "Rosen." But what I asked initially in the thread was what was weighing on the Buffalo Bills/McBeane's mind, not Hapless Bills Fan's mind. You said you think it was more an injury thing as to why we clearly coveted Allen over Rosen. I think that's probably a part of it, but with the sheer number of meet n greets and pre draft visits and so on the Bills had combined with a Head Coach who, to me, is very much about culture and humility and personality, I think they clearly liked Rosen on the football field but we were trying to see how well his personality and demeanor would fit in with Buffalo (team more than city, but city, too) as much as anything, and they really didn't think he was a fit. Before the draft I told everyone in the room if we selected Allen I’m taking my car and driving off a bridge ... i lived ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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