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Which weighed more heavily on 4/26/2018: WANTING Allen or NOT Wanting Rosen?


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3 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

Or, hey let's have 2 dozen active threads all on the same topic and repeat ourselves ad nauseum.

Sounds like a plan. 

 

Or, consider my counter-offer: let's have ONE massive, sprawling thread that spans double-digit pages and swallows all shades and nuances into one unified behemoth.

 

There can be no middle ground in this life!

Edited by Richard Noggin
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6 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Sounds like a plan. 

 

Or, consider my counter-offer: let's have ONE massive, sprawling thread that spans double-digit pages and swallows all shades and nuances into one unified behemoth.

 

There can be no middle ground in this life!

Sure is. Have something relevant to talk about when staring a thread and not moot hypothetical scenarios.

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9 hours ago, #34fan said:

 

 

He was WAY more hyped than a kid coming out of Wyoming should have been... Many draftniks including Mel Kuyper had Allen going #1 to the Browns.

You couldn't get anyone at NFL network to shut up about his cannon arm. -Still cant, really.

 

By this logic, I suppose you must think Carson Wentz, of North Dakota State, was WAY overdrafted then?

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10 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

By this logic, I suppose you must think Carson Wentz, of North Dakota State, was WAY overdrafted then?

 

Absolutely not, and for two very good reasons:

1: The 2016 QB field was tiny in comparison to 2018... With Goff and Wentz being the only two legitimate top picks. There wasn't a whole lot to Hype, so those two got it all.

2: NDSU is one HELL of a football program... Capable of competing in a division like the big-12 north, IMO... Wentz led that program to back to back national titles with a 20-3 record as a starter... Comparing the two college careers is unfair to Allen.

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On 5/9/2018 at 4:25 PM, mjt328 said:

Based on everything we know, I don't think Josh Rosen was on our board at all - or he was significantly lower than Josh Allen.

 

I always got the impression the Bills were disappointed in the Jets/Colts trade and were targeting that spot.  They were also making attempts to trade up, even as high as #2 to make sure they got the right guy.  I just can't see them pushing so hard to make a deal with Denver if there were two guys left they were comfortable with.  After Sam Darnold was taken, it's pretty clear that Beane was starting to get desperate.  That's because he only had ONE GUY left at the top of his board.

 

The Bills front office places an extremely high premium on character.  And for some reason, lots of teams (not just a few) had problems with Rosen.  Maybe we won't know the specifics for a few years, but GMs and coaches just didn't want him on their team.

Character? How much "character" did Bean show when they cut the pay of a pro-bowl player. IR's salary was already reasonable Now they created another hole where there wouldn't have been one this year.

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14 hours ago, Spiderweb said:

Character? How much "character" did Bean show when they cut the pay of a pro-bowl player. IR's salary was already reasonable Now they created another hole where there wouldn't have been one this year.

 

I assume you are talking about Ritchie Incognito?

Honestly, I'm not really seeing the connection between the two examples.

 

When it comes to money, the door swings both ways.  It takes two sides to agree on a contract. 

NFL players get paid very well.  Even the ones making the league minimum.  And when they sign on the dotted line, they know all of the money is not guaranteed.  That part of the league is the business side... just like they constantly remind the fans when they hold-out of training camp or leave for big bucks in free agency.

 

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On 5/12/2018 at 2:52 AM, Spiderweb said:

Character? How much "character" did Bean show when they cut the pay of a pro-bowl player. IR's salary was already reasonable Now they created another hole where there wouldn't have been one this year.

 

You appear to be confusing "character" with "business". 

"Business" is how you value players, renegotiate contracts, etc.  Players leave for higher money all the time.  Teams renegotiate with vet players, including former all pro let alone pro-bowl players, all the time.

 

RI was already under contract to the Bills for the upcoming season, and if he felt he was worth more on the open market (if they released him) or the same amount of money as his current contract with the Bills, he had a simple sentence available to him:  "No".  He didn't have to go on a twit-fest firing his agent, saying he's retiring for medical reasons, etc.

 

If someone wants to sell me a car for $XX, and I offer them 20% less and they take it, how does that impact my character?

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3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You appear to be confusing "character" with "business". 

"Business" is how you value players, renegotiate contracts, etc.  Players leave for higher money all the time.  Teams renegotiate with vet players, including former all pro let alone pro-bowl players, all the time.

 

RI was already under contract to the Bills for the upcoming season, and if he felt he was worth more on the open market (if they released him) or the same amount of money as his current contract with the Bills, he had a simple sentence available to him:  "No".  He didn't have to go on a twit-fest firing his agent, saying he's retiring for medical reasons, etc.

 

If someone wants to sell me a car for $XX, and I offer them 20% less and they take it, how does that impact my character?

 

Because if you had great integrity and character you would’ve paid the person double for the car ?

 

thats character! Lol

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On 5/14/2018 at 4:47 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You appear to be confusing "character" with "business". 

"Business" is how you value players, renegotiate contracts, etc.  Players leave for higher money all the time.  Teams renegotiate with vet players, including former all pro let alone pro-bowl players, all the time.

 

RI was already under contract to the Bills for the upcoming season, and if he felt he was worth more on the open market (if they released him) or the same amount of money as his current contract with the Bills, he had a simple sentence available to him:  "No".  He didn't have to go on a twit-fest firing his agent, saying he's retiring for medical reasons, etc.

 

If someone wants to sell me a car for $XX, and I offer them 20% less and they take it, how does that impact my character?

 

That RI thing is still truly baffling to me.

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32 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

When it came right down to it I felt better about Allen than Rosen, who has knee injuries and concussions and just don't like his attitude.

 

 

 

Didn't realize he had knee injuries... at this point I just think he's a total douche who would never fit into WNY.

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4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Didn't realize he had knee injuries... at this point I just think he's a total douche who would never fit into WNY.

 

I don't think he does have knee injuries.  The thing with Rosen has been shoulder injuries requiring surgery, and two concussions.

Allen also has multiple shoulder injuries, the college one costing him a season and requiring surgical reconstruction.

Mayfield also has had 2 concussions within 3 games.

 

I really don't care if our QB is a total douche if he can play QB well.  If Allen can play QB in the NFL, it's a bonus if he's a nice guy and we all love him. 

But if he turned out to be a total douche but won lots o' ballgames my opinion is he'd fit into WNY Just Fine. 

 

If he's a nice guy and can't play, well, we all know how that goes.

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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think he does have knee injuries.  The thing with Rosen has been shoulder injuries requiring surgery, and two concussions.

Allen also has multiple shoulder injuries, the college one costing him a season and requiring surgical reconstruction.

Mayfield also has had 2 concussions within 3 games.

 

I really don't care if our QB is a total douche if he can play QB well.  If Allen can play QB in the NFL, it's a bonus if he's a nice guy and we all love him. 

But if he turned out to be a total douche but won lots o' ballgames my opinion is he'd fit into WNY Just Fine. 

 

If he's a nice guy and can't play, well, we all know how that goes.

AMEN brother. I literally give no cares to what type of people these players are. Entertainment. Win some games, man. I won’t ever be hanging out with them but I will be watching their product every sunday. 

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On 5/9/2018 at 2:38 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

Brandon Beane actually recounts all of this in terms of the trades and attempted trades almost two weeks ago now to trade up from 12 to get a QB.  It's in an article by the Buffalo News, but is, unfortunately, behind a paywall.  But even before that article, reports were wide-ranging now that the Bills had a deal in place to trade up to #5 with the Broncos.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-the-draft-day-trade-the-bills-and-broncos-had-in-place-before-bradley-chubb-fell/

 

And we all know they eventually traded up to #7 with the Bucs (a deal that apparently nearly didn't happen after Beane made an offer and the Bucs GM passed, but then he called Beane back just as they were getting on the clock), but Peter King reports this week in his MMQB that Buffalo legitimately was trying to trade with the Colts, too.

 

http://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/05/07/peter-king-sports-illustrated-nbc-mmqb?__twitter_impression=true

• The Bills moved from 12 to seven in the first round to get Josh Allen, and they tried to move from 12 to 6. The Colts, at six, did a great job disguising their intentions, because the league thought GM Chris Ballard wanted Roquan Smith there. But the Colts’ research showed their quarterbacks being hit more than any other quarterbacks in football since 2012. So sure-fire guard starter Quenton Nelson had been locked in for a while at six, and Ballard got the last prospective early interior-line starter on their board at 37, Auburn guard Braden Smith. Interesting that in his pre-draft press conference Ballard said the offensive and defensive lines are how they’ll build this team, and in the first two rounds, he took two guards and two defensive ends. Maybe those useless press conferences are worth something after all. Anyway, when the Bills called Ballard, he didn’t have much interest, because he wanted Nelson so bad as a shield for beaten Andrew Luck.

 

 

So, Beane was, by his own account, ready to move up to #5 for sure and even had that deal in place before the draft, pending whether the Broncos guy (Chubb) was available or not.  Clearly Beane was also trying to get higher, but wasn't willing to give up any future picks, which I'm guessing is what Dorsey at #4 and Gettleman at #2 was asking for.

 

Based on some of his cryptic responses in that Buffalo News article in response to the question of where Allen was on his board, I think it's pretty clear that Darnold was #1 and Allen was #2.

 

But my question is: how much of a drop from Allen to Rosen was there?

 

Of course, this is just an educated guess, but I'd say if it went #1- Darnold and #2- Allen... do you think Rosen was even ranked #3 on the Bills board or do you think he was completely off the Bills board, whether for durability or personality concerns?

 

 

Whether Rosen was completely off Buffalo's board or not, I don't know.  But if Allen and Rosen were ranked even closely together, I don't think the mad scramble to get to #5, then #6, then #7 would have happened... and Benjamin Allbright also reported early this week that Arizona had been trying to get to #5 for Allen.

https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/992792690600407040

There was no deal in place pre draft between Denver and Arizona. Arizona had called to inquire, but Denver had a deal in place with Buffalo (as we reported prior to the draft). Denver backed out of that deal to select Bradley Chubb.

Both Buffalo and AZ were after Josh Allen at 5

 

 

 

So, knowing the price we paid and would have also been willing to pay going up to #5 and the picks we could have saved if the difference between Allen and Rosen were negligible, do you think our trade up to draft Allen is more a sign of how much Buffalo likes Allen or how much Buffalo didn't like Rosen?

 

 

We didnt have to take EITHER QB there. You move up for a guy bc you really like him. If you dont really like either of them you sit tight and let the draft play out. 

 

We clearly thought Rosen was hot garbage. And im glad they chose wisely. 

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42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think he does have knee injuries.  The thing with Rosen has been shoulder injuries requiring surgery, and two concussions.

Allen also has multiple shoulder injuries, the college one costing him a season and requiring surgical reconstruction.

Mayfield also has had 2 concussions within 3 games.

 

I really don't care if our QB is a total douche if he can play QB well.  If Allen can play QB in the NFL, it's a bonus if he's a nice guy and we all love him. 

But if he turned out to be a total douche but won lots o' ballgames my opinion is he'd fit into WNY Just Fine. 

 

If he's a nice guy and can't play, well, we all know how that goes.

IIRC he wears a bulky knee brace on his left, I’m not sure why or when that started. Reminded me a bit of Bradford in the pocket though. 

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1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

IIRC he wears a bulky knee brace on his left, I’m not sure why or when that started. Reminded me a bit of Bradford in the pocket though. 

 

KzooMike posted one of the more off-beat and unique but interesting analysis of college QB rushing % of total yards vs "Success" or "Bust" in the NFL

College stats counts sacks as "rushing yards" so low or neg. numbers rushing can mean high sacks)

 

Very immobile QB (less than 0.5% I think) tended to "bust" at high rates.  Note that this could also mean a QB who doesn't make decisions fast enough and gets sacked a lot.

 

Rosen fell into that very low rush yards bin of Kzoo's.  Caveat that I don't think Rosen's decision making is slow, but he may be too immobile in the pocket for the NFL.  It's a point of concern.

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Rosen holds the ball too long, tries to make plays when he should throw the ball away, and isn’t very mobile.

 

Coupled with his slight build, we’ll see how he stands up to injury.

 

The big hits he took in college might have more dire consequences in the NFL.

Edited by Sky Diver
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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think he does have knee injuries.  The thing with Rosen has been shoulder injuries requiring surgery, and two concussions.

Allen also has multiple shoulder injuries, the college one costing him a season and requiring surgical reconstruction.

Mayfield also has had 2 concussions within 3 games.

 

I really don't care if our QB is a total douche if he can play QB well.  If Allen can play QB in the NFL, it's a bonus if he's a nice guy and we all love him. 

But if he turned out to be a total douche but won lots o' ballgames my opinion is he'd fit into WNY Just Fine. 

 

If he's a nice guy and can't play, well, we all know how that goes.

 

You might not care, but the Bills might have.

 

The thing is... there's a pretty decent chance that him being a douche is a contributing factor to him being the 4th QB drafted and why several teams (including the Bills, apparently) took him off their boards completely. Hell, there were reports on Buffalo looking at Rosen up to draft day.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2018/04/buffalo_bills_did_late_work_on_ucla_qb_josh_rosen_says_jason_lacanfora.amp

They did some late work on Rosen, doubling back with people who know him well, going over his personality and how to reach him and connect with him. 

 

I guess I'll just ask this--if it was all about injury history and risk as to why the Bills took both Mayfield and Rosen off their boards, why did they waste so much time in one-on-one's with them (I think Beane spent significantly more time with those 2 than with Allen) and even use 2 of our limited pre draft visits getting to know them?

Edited by transplantbillsfan
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