My Debate with a HC

[Buffalo716]

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Buffalo716

[NoSaint]

What was his reasoning in this discussion?

 

i suppose there is likely something to be said for a balance. You developed the game plan for a reason and hopefully you didn’t totally blow evaluating your own team or opponents- so I would say look for wrinkles but maybe not totally toss it right out of the gate without a good reason. Essentially trust the process but don’t be stubborn 

Edited May 9, 2018 by NoSaint

[Buffalo716]

40 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

What was his reasoning in this discussion?

 

i suppose there is likely something to be said for a balance. You developed the game plan for a reason and hopefully you didn’t totally blow evaluating your own team or opponents- so I would say look for wrinkles but maybe not totally toss it right out of the gate without a good reason.

 

Pretty much as you stated... you work all week on a gameplan that you don’t toss after a series or 2... that halftime is time to tweak things in your game plan and focus on executing... tweaking too much may do more bad than good

 

i understand that but a football game is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Buffalo716

[aceman_16]

If you "wait" until halftime it is almost already too late.  However,  you don't want to willy nilly change the game plan because a few things didn't go as planned. Often times the halftime period affords coaches to be more in-depth with the adjustments.

Edited May 9, 2018 by aceman_16

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, aceman_16 said:

If you "wait" until halftime it is almost already too late.  However,  you don't want to willy Billy change the game plan because a few things didn't go as planned. Often times the halftime period afford coaches to be more in-depth with the adjustments.

 

Agree. I’m not arguing to go crazy with adjustments just that waiting till Halftime isn’t necessary 

[Alphadawg7]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure...

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

Your thoughts are a bit flawed IMO for one major reason.  Execution.  

 

There are players on both sides of the ball being paid to execute their own plan.  Just because some things aren’t going your way early doesn’t mean the game plan is flawed.  You can’t just abandon it so fast.  There are so many minor circumstances that can impact the failure or success on any given play.  Sometimes you need to trust your gameplan longer than you are suggesting.  

 

That being said, to your point, I agree you don’t always have to wait to halftime to start trying to adjust to what’s happening on the field.  But there is also a lot more that can be changed at halftime as the coordinators and assistant coaches can gather more info, review more photos and tape, etc to identify bigger adjustments to counter the parts that aren’t working.  

 

So I think there is truth in both sides of the argument, but i think in your case you are not allowing enough time to develop flow in the game before suggesting to make big adjustments and I also think you are underestimating the complexity of these changes and over simplifying what it truly means to implement significant game plan changes on the fly versus what can be done during halftime.  

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Your thoughts are a bit flawed IMO for one major reason.  Execution.  

 

There are players on both sides of the ball being paid to execute their own plan.  Just because some things aren’t going your way early doesn’t mean the game plan is flawed.  You can’t just abandon it so fast.  There are so many minor circumstances that can impact the failure or success on any given play.  Sometimes you need to trust your gameplan longer than you are suggesting.  

 

That being said, to your point, I agree you don’t always have to wait to halftime to start trying to adjust to what’s happening on the field.  But there is also a lot more that can be changed at halftime as the coordinators and assistant coaches can gather more info, review more photos and tape, etc to identify bigger adjustments to counter the parts that aren’t working.  

 

So I think there is truth in both sides of the argument, but i think in your case you are not allowing enough time to develop flow in the game before suggesting to make big adjustments and I also think you are underestimating the complexity of these changes and over simplifying what it truly means to implement significant game plan changes on the fly versus what can be done during halftime.  

 

No I fully agree with you and the point about execution.

 

There is somebody who is gameplanning to stop you as well... I don’t think I’m flawless ?

[Figster]

35 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure...

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

Myself personally, 

 

Halftime is a better time to regroup IMO,

 

give your original game planning a chance to work...

Edited May 9, 2018 by Figster

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Figster said:

Myself personally, 

 

Halftime is a better time to regroup IMO

 

I fully understand your side ?

 

haste is not right On the football field 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

It seems to me that the right answer probably depends upon how clear-cut your realization is, or how long it takes to get to a clear realization.  Isn't that why some coaches script  the first several offensive series in a game, because they want to methodically probe for favorable matchups and opponent weaknesses?  Then they hammer down on them.

 

So in your example, you're able to realize, maybe on the 1st or 2nd series, that their front is weak sauce but their DB are killing ya.  Clear-cut.  Pound the rock.

 

But what if it's not?  What if their front looks pretty stout, and their DB are killing ya?  That's where maybe a guy with a plan laid out would stick to it and probe more for matchups.

 

It seems to me the best strategy is to exploit the opponent's weakness, whatever it is, whenever you can ID it.  If that's after the 2nd series, do it.  If it takes until halftime, that's when to change.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It seems to me that the right answer probably depends upon how clear-cut your realization is, or how long it takes to get to a clear realization.  Isn't that why some coaches script  the first several offensive series in a game, because they want to methodically probe for favorable matchups and opponent weaknesses?  Then they hammer down on them.

 

So in your example, you're able to realize, maybe on the 1st or 2nd series, that their front is weak sauce but their DB are killing ya.  Clear-cut.  Pound the rock.

 

But what if it's not?  What if their front looks pretty stout, and their DB are killing ya?  That's where maybe a guy with a plan laid out would stick to it and probe more for matchups.

 

It seems to me the best strategy is to exploit the opponent's weakness, whatever it is, whenever you can ID it.  If that's after the 2nd series, do it.  If it takes until halftime, that's when to change.

 

 

 

Yea I didn’t believe I “won” the debate... there are tons of correct ways to go about it depending on circumstances

 

its not really cut and dry like I make it out... there is definitely a happy middle ground to be found

 

it stemmed from a Bills conversation about Dennison and his lack of adjustments... we were clearly 20x better as a power run team under center vs a zone run team under center 

 

Hopefully Daboll can exploit our strengths against opponents weaknesses 

 

and you are correct , also to set up plays later on that look like the script plays at the LOS but arent

Edited May 9, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Figster]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It seems to me that the right answer probably depends upon how clear-cut your realization is, or how long it takes to get to a clear realization.  Isn't that why some coaches script  the first several offensive series in a game, because they want to methodically probe for favorable matchups and opponent weaknesses?  Then they hammer down on them.

 

So in your example, you're able to realize, maybe on the 1st or 2nd series, that their front is weak sauce but their DB are killing ya.  Clear-cut.  Pound the rock.

 

But what if it's not?  What if their front looks pretty stout, and their DB are killing ya?  That's where maybe a guy with a plan laid out would stick to it and probe more for matchups.

 

It seems to me the best strategy is to exploit the opponent's weakness, whatever it is, whenever you can ID it.  If that's after the 2nd series, do it.  If it takes until halftime, that's when to change.

 

 

Good post,  makes for an interesting discussion

 

The reason I agree with the coaches response of doing more harm then good sometimes is because you build much of your original game plan based on your own team strengths in my humble opinion.  I'll use Buffalo as an example. The Bills with Taylor behind center was a run 1st O because its what they did well. Throwing the football, not so much and now by changing the Bills gameplan early on stopping the run, its also playing into Buffalo's weakness. Dictated by the opposition in just a couple of series that wants Buffalo to try beating them throwing the football.

 

with all due respect sir,

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Figster

[Richard Noggin]

The primary piece of Bellichick's coaching that I admire (and it pains me to admire him) is his willingness to IMMEDIATELY make in-game adjustments. Sometimes it seems like the first couple drives are diagnostic in nature, and once he and his staff accurately assess the opponent's plan, they set about countering that plan.

 

Obviously that's not always necessary, or at least major adjustments aren't always called for (based on well-scouted gameplans and/or superior players/execution), but I've seen countless clips of him meeting with coaches and position groups on the sideline, detailing changes in approach and with specific techniques. 

 

Halftime is a great opportunity to lay out more comprehensive plans for the final 30 minutes, but I don't think waiting to tweak or adjust or even scrap certain gameplans makes any sense. 

[Figster]

6 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

The primary piece of Bellichick's coaching that I admire (and it pains me to admire him) is his willingness to IMMEDIATELY make in-game adjustments. Sometimes it seems like the first couple drives are diagnostic in nature, and once he and his staff accurately assess the opponent's plan, they set about countering that plan.

 

Obviously that's not always necessary, or at least major adjustments aren't always called for (based on well-scouted gameplans and/or superior players/execution), but I've seen countless clips of him meeting with coaches and position groups on the sideline, detailing changes in approach and with specific techniques. 

 

Halftime is a great opportunity to lay out more comprehensive plans for the final 30 minutes, but I don't think waiting to tweak or adjust or even scrap certain gameplans makes any sense. 

Belichick and Saban at the college level might be an exception to the rule.

 

Don't you think the athletes themselves may need time to adjust to what the oppositon is trying to do, weather, field conditions, before scrapping anything?

 

Maybe its just me , but when you start scrapping your game plan at the 1st sign of resistance players might lose confidence in what their doing on the football field in my humble opinion. Especially at  the college level. 

 

Good discussion OP

[Passepartout]

Wished all pro coaches could adjust and not at halftime. As there is a difference with NFL and college. Adjusting on the fly.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

 

I think adjustments should made whenever necessary , from play to play if need be.

 

Waiting til halftime is stupid and outdated.

[Figster]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

I think adjustments should made whenever necessary , from play to play if need be.

 

Waiting til halftime is stupid and outdated.

So who is making these swift adjustments? The OC and DC without the HC approval? I don't think so, shall we take a timeout to discuss it among coaches? probably not

 

 

[GunnerBill]

I kinda fall with @Alphadawg here. I think it is easy to say "your gameplan is not working - adjust". But it takes players with certain qualities to be able to do that. It isn't easy. You might think "I'd like to go to plan B" but can your players execute plan B?

 

It is the one thing that only the people who work with those players day in and day out can know. Relating it back to my days as a semi-pro soccer coach... there might have been times when I really wanted to abandon my 4-3-3 system and go to 3 at the back. But to play that way you need outside central defenders mobile enough to defend the channels and I just didn't have them. So it might have been the right system to win the game in theory but I didn't have the personnel to execute. I know that is soccer but the principle still applies. 

 

It was one of the reasons I was less harsh on Dennison than many others. I just did not think, Shady apart, the Bills were very talented on offense. That Jets game that he got killed on here for.... you can have all the schemes and all the adjustments you like. If your blockers can't hold a block and your receivers can't run a route your adjustments are useless. I felt and still feel most of the Bills' offensive woes last year came down to the big T - talent. 

 

Again I don't mean to keep bringing everything back to soccer but when I took my first assistant coach job at the age of 23 the Head Coach told me something I have always carried with me - to win you need 3 Ps: passion, purpose and pattern... but the 4th P is the most important of all - you need players. 

 

Interestingly to bring this back to Dennison and half time adjustments.... the Bills were significantly more effective in the 1st half than the 2nd so it was rarely the case that they knew at half time that things were not working. If there was a criticism I think they had a tendency to stay with what worked to the point of repetition - particularly in the run game. Same formations, same shifts, same play. The strength of Greg Roman's run game in contrast was he gave you the same run but with some window dressing with shifts or formation so that it looked slightly different or he gave you the same formation and shift then a totally different run concept. In Dennison's scheme if it looked the same it probably was the same. 

[downunderbill]

28 minutes ago, Figster said:

So who is making these swift adjustments? The OC and DC without the HC approval? I don't think so, shall we take a timeout to discuss it among coaches? probably not

 

 

 

Why couldn't the coaches discuss it while the offence or defense is on the field, whichever needs an adjustment priority. Surely in the modern game they would have a plan B, then all they would need to say is "switch to plan b", save a timeout.

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

 

I believe it is a totally flawed argument.  

 

A game plan is typically built with some variation and all coaches make tweaks and adjustments all the time - they are minor, but it is not like the entire half is scripted.  

 

If if you have game planned and prepared halfway decently you should have a somewhat good idea going into the game if your WRs are outmatched or the front was susceptible and if you are just finding that out in the game - you were not prepared enough ahead of time.

 

Throughout the game you should be tweaking what you are doing and seeing how they react and how you can exploit that, but Halftime should be for your big adjustments and changes if things are not working.  That is when you have your teams attention and can really teach or set-up what you need to accomplish in the 2nd half, but your opponent is doing the same.

 

The correct answer is both are vital and most coaches do it automatically the levels of adjustments vary, but they tweak and adjust all the time - this includes Dennison last year.  

 

What can impact the levels of adjustments is the strengths and weaknesses of your own team.