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My Debate with a HC


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4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I assume Dennison might have been one of the offensive coaches that Dilfer called out in his comments about NFL QB rooms where the coaches can't really provide an in-depth answer to "why?" because they got it from someone else and they don't really have that depth.  I hope that is not true of Daboll!

 

Yea I thought of him as soon as Dilfer said it.  

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9 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

Did you win? 

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9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea I thought of him as soon as Dilfer said it.  

 

I kind of wonder if the root of all this is the need for teams/the NFL to take a look at the whole process of how they are hiring and developing coaches.

It all seems very cosy and nepotistic - I know a guy who knows a guy.  That's fine if the job is one that a wide variety of people could do decently.

 

Football coaching, especially offensive coaching, seems to me that it calls for a unique set of skills.  There has to be the strategic thinking of chess; an air-traffic-controller-like ability to visualize 2 dimensional play diagrams and still photos not only as three dimensional, but to project the movement; a military-like ability to assess the mental and physical characteristics of each player and put them in positions to succeed.  It's one of the jobs in the world where I know, without a doubt, looking from the outside at what it takes to do well, I would absolutely and completely suck at, and yet ....sometimes I feel like I could do a better job than some of the guys who are there.

 

There are brilliant coaches at the HS, JUCO, and college level, as well as players with in interest in coaching.  Meanwhile for some reason the NFL has the tendency to re-cycle the same handful of retreads, and for HC to hire people they've worked with and feel a comfort level with.

 

Maybe the problem is the general NFL talent search protocol, there isn't enough effort to methodically ID and develop candidates who actually have the mental skills.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I kind of wonder if the root of all this is the need for teams/the NFL to take a look at the whole process of how they are hiring and developing coaches.

It all seems very cosy and nepotistic - I know a guy who knows a guy.  That's fine if the job is one that a wide variety of people could do decently.

 

Football coaching, especially offensive coaching, seems to me that it calls for a unique set of skills.  There has to be the strategic thinking of chess; an air-traffic-controller-like ability to visualize 2 dimensional play diagrams and still photos not only as three dimensional, but to project the movement; a military-like ability to assess the mental and physical characteristics of each player and put them in positions to succeed.  It's one of the jobs in the world where I know, without a doubt, looking from the outside at what it takes to do well, I would absolutely and completely suck at, and yet ....sometimes I feel like I could do a better job than some of the guys who are there.

 

There are brilliant coaches at the HS, JUCO, and college level, as well as players with in interest in coaching.  Meanwhile for some reason the NFL has the tendency to re-cycle the same handful of retreads, and for HC to hire people they've worked with and feel a comfort level with.

 

Maybe the problem is the general NFL talent search protocol, there isn't enough effort to methodically ID and develop candidates who actually have the mental skills.

 

Yea I don't think the NFL does a very good job at coach development.  

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9 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

 

A lot of teams script the beginning of games for various reasons.  So these teams couldn't adjust much until maybe the 2nd quarter.

 

But, that being said, waiting to adjust at halftime doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Imagine if military leaders didn't adjust their failing plans until "halftime"?  Or businesses launching a new strategy?   In those worlds you adjust 'on the fly' - why would football be different?  

 

In the military, business or sports, you must prepare your folks ahead of time for the adjustments.  "Depending on what we see and how things go, we may audible to this or that revised plan..."  

 

Maybe you're not explaining the college coach's POV very well but as you relate it, it sounds like he's going to waste the entire first half of the game being sub-optimal.  That's unacceptable.  That's not how you win.

 

 

8 hours ago, Figster said:

Myself personally, 

 

Halftime is a better time to regroup IMO,

 

give your original game planning a chance to work...

 

It's situational.  
 

You give your original game plan a chance to work if there are reasons to believe it will work.  One or two stalled offensive draws don't necessarily mean anything.  


But if your opponent is doing something completely different that you expected, or if there's a key injury that changes your calculations, you must change on the fly - before halftime.

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I don’t think I’ve ever met a successful coach that doesn’t actually “coach” throughout the game.

 

Id assume that if a coach waited till halftime to adjust, that person isn’t a very good coach.

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Interesting thread, I see both points. I also think what factors into it is the nature of the adjustments.

 

Calling more of a specific play and just swapping out a skill guy on offense or just playing a different guy in defense whose skill set is better suited to one specific aspect is a switch you can make on the fly in my opinion.

 

A larger schematic change the requires different positions to work together and something a team may not have worked on in weeks may better suit a halftime change seeing as you can address it with all position groups at the same time, go into more detail and allow the players to receive the information in a different environment together.

 

However, a question I'm genuinely curious about, who are the great coaches the OP has met?

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I’ve  noticed how bills and pats often play each other close during the first half, but then the pats completely separate themselves in the second half. Belichick seems to take advantage of halftime for adjustments as well as anyone and he is the best coach in the game.  

 

Ive always thought that when teams start strong and finish weak it’s a sign of bad coaching more than failed execution 

Edited by BobBelcher
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I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for both. 

I for one am not the kind of person to abondon a plan easy.  Perseverance and patience may be what is needed over abandoning a plan.  At other times it may be obvious that a new plan is needed. 

  My problem with conversation is that the perspective is placed on a specific time when a change is necessary.  

 

Military personnel have a five paragraph planning system.  The fifth paragraph disguses how and why to change a plan.  We call it a fragmentation order.  Or FRAGO.  Having a method to apply back up plans in already in place is our method.

 

Changes to the plan are always necessary but to state that it has to go down at the half I've always thought was obsured.  Why?  

Edited by JaxBills
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Seems to me, and I really don't know, that adjustment is continual, but there is a definite limitation to the scope of adjustment that can be made on the go, especially when considering communicating said adjustments. 

Seems like in game is more about tweaking the game-plan to meet the opposition, but halftime is where you can really adjust and overhaul things. 

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I kind of wonder if the root of all this is the need for teams/the NFL to take a look at the whole process of how they are hiring and developing coaches.

It all seems very cosy and nepotistic - I know a guy who knows a guy.  That's fine if the job is one that a wide variety of people could do decently.

 

Football coaching, especially offensive coaching, seems to me that it calls for a unique set of skills.  There has to be the strategic thinking of chess; an air-traffic-controller-like ability to visualize 2 dimensional play diagrams and still photos not only as three dimensional, but to project the movement; a military-like ability to assess the mental and physical characteristics of each player and put them in positions to succeed.  It's one of the jobs in the world where I know, without a doubt, looking from the outside at what it takes to do well, I would absolutely and completely suck at, and yet ....sometimes I feel like I could do a better job than some of the guys who are there.

 

There are brilliant coaches at the HS, JUCO, and college level, as well as players with in interest in coaching.  Meanwhile for some reason the NFL has the tendency to re-cycle the same handful of retreads, and for HC to hire people they've worked with and feel a comfort level with.

 

Maybe the problem is the general NFL talent search protocol, there isn't enough effort to methodically ID and develop candidates who actually have the mental skills.

 

 

 

I think so much of it, as well, is that the coaches who stand out as visionaries are the ones who are pushing their own ideas and their new ways of doing things... I think it's cool to see those long coaching trees like Walsh and Reid, but unless those guys that are 2 and 3 steps away (like Pederson) are willing to take that knowledge and create new things, it's going to be the same old same old. 

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19 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

I don’t think I’ve ever met a successful coach that doesn’t actually “coach” throughout the game.

 

Id assume that if a coach waited till halftime to adjust, that person isn’t a very good coach.

Bill Walsh and his WC offense scripted a certain number of plays on offense. 

He never waivered on those scripted.plays. That was in the 80's, and is still used if not even more today. 

 If they worked great. If not they played out the string. From that the 9ers gained

intelligence on what may work or not for the remainder of the game. If anyone did this

before Walsh, I'm not aware. Today this is for some teams SOP. 

 

not making adjustments and  instead getting a read on an opponent is not a sign of being a  poor

coach. especially in the early game stage.  It is a strategy. And for very good coaches it is complicated. 

Adjustments are made when a player (lets use Mills for an example) Is getting 

torched on every snap. Well than yea do something. If not pay the consequences. We saw that happen last year. 

when the Bills did not adjust. I think the Chargers game in particular.

 

Back then after halftime the 9ers would

at times come out and simply blow away their opponent. To a certain extent the pats***

also use this with great results. In particular with the Bills. 

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5 hours ago, BigPappy said:

 

 I have to go with Alphadawg7 on this. It's like he picked it right out of my brain and put it to paper. 

My thoughts also...

 

Having enough intel by halftime to make intelligent adjustments is a key point in my humble opinion.

 

Myself personally,  players practice so they can go out and execute plays properly and the more deviation from the original game plan the more likely you will have less success executing in my humble opinion.

 

Some of the best teams in the league can get away with drastic changes on the fly because they have some of the most talented, experienced and well coached players in the league with everyone on the same page.

 

Easier said then done in my humble opinion... 

 

 

Edited by Figster
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6 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I believe it is a totally flawed argument.  

 

A game plan is typically built with some variation and all coaches make tweaks and adjustments all the time - they are minor, but it is not like the entire half is scripted.  

 

If if you have game planned and prepared halfway decently you should have a somewhat good idea going into the game if your WRs are outmatched or the front was susceptible and if you are just finding that out in the game - you were not prepared enough ahead of time.

 

Throughout the game you should be tweaking what you are doing and seeing how they react and how you can exploit that, but Halftime should be for your big adjustments and changes if things are not working.  That is when you have your teams attention and can really teach or set-up what you need to accomplish in the 2nd half, but your opponent is doing the same.

 

The correct answer is both are vital and most coaches do it automatically the levels of adjustments vary, but they tweak and adjust all the time - this includes Dennison last year.  

 

What can impact the levels of adjustments is the strengths and weaknesses of your own team. 

 

Totally. My point was more circumstances related. Like if you were gonna air it out becuse you had the advantage but then your #1 and #3 went down... you need to adjust asap

6 hours ago, K-9 said:

Is this coach a proponent of scripting plays to begin a game?

 

And sometimes, there is just no adjusting for being physically dominated and getting your ass kicked. But that's another discussion. 

 

Yes he is

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That later seemed to be one of Dennison's Achilles heels.

 

Dennison's problem seemed to be that he couldn't identify what his personnel were good at using multiple game films

In contrast to Doug Pederson, who, given a week or two to look at old Foles films, came up with some mods to his scheme that took two great teams apart

 

Someone on Cover1 did a piece after the Bills-NOrleans game where he pointed out Dennison didn't adjust the pass routes for the coverage N'Orleans was actually running until the 4th Q.  That's clearly too freakin' long!  Seems to me at the least, you got to figure out what coverage you're actually facing from the stills and adjust to that ASAP.

That was more of the side I wasn’t going for. That sometimes you need to be proactive instead of reactive 

 

Dennison couldn’t find the pulse of his own team let alone break down an opposing teams defense... it was a hot mess from the start

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4 hours ago, mead107 said:

Did you win? 

 

Ill call it a draw... he got in a punch at the end with the old “ that’s why you’re no longer a college coach”

 

but i got him right back with the old “let me know when you’re outta the cellar  in your conference “

 

it was all fun ?

Edited by Buffalo716
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20 minutes ago, Figster said:

My thoughts also...

 

Having enough intel by halftime to make intelligent adjustments is a key point in my humble opinion.

 

Myself personally,  players practice so they can go out and execute plays properly and the more deviation from the original game plan the more likely you will have less success executing in my humble opinion.

 

Some of the best teams in the league can get away with drastic changes on the fly because they have some of the most talented, experienced and well coached players in the league with everyone on the same page.

 

Easier said then done in my humble opinion... 

 

 

 

 

I think the perfect example of this was Rex and his defense here in Buffalo.  How many times over the 2 years did we hear defenders talking about calls coming in that they did not practice and therefore the team was still reacting to the call at the snap.  

 

Even if the new new play was correct because the players were less familiar and had not practiced it - the fit did not work and it left gaps to be exploited.  Now if Rex had been here for years and the guys had practiced the plays together numerous times in the past and knew how everyone would react - you can call these special plays and get away with it, but as the team was uncomfortable with the plays - it lead to more failure than success.

 

Of course you see some of the backside of that with Dennison who was slower to change and adapt and struggled because he got poor reads on plays because the QB could not follow the offensive script.

 

You need that middle ground - tweaks and coaching in-game and major changes at halftime to ensure you get the best of both worlds.

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6 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

This is part art of what I can’t stand - Dennison had a lot of faults, but he was hired to bring in a certain offense that the coach envisioned for a long term success.  You make it sound as if he did not make changes throughout the season or in game.  

 

He adjusted a ton throughout the year both in game and out of game.  The issues stem from the expectations that players will also adapt to coaching and get better and as was talked about numerous times by Sal on WGR - TT was unable to adapt and it forced Dennison to scrap what he wanted to do and implement a plan that he was less comfortable with.  The Bills had a very, very limited offensive roster with many players with a limited skill set at key positions and this very much impacts how much you can adjust you overall game plan.

 

Now I will fully agree that Dennison was not the fit for the team as it was constructed for week 1.  The players did not really fit what he and the HC wanted and he was slow to adapt, but TT was also injured in preseason so he did not have a couple of weeks of his starting QB to see that he could not handle the offense and his back-up in Peterman could handle it.

 

Once you get through the preseason the in-season major adjustments take weeks to implement because you are changing assignments for players and have to get everyone on the same page - for the Bills it took about 4 weeks.  We saw a similar change happen year 1 under Marrone where they wanted to run the up-tempo offense with a veteran QB and when Kolb was injured in training camp and then concussed in the last game - it took about 4 weeks to completely adjust the offense to EJ.

 

 

 

I fully understand that.Dennsion did his best... it wasn’t a lack of adjustments or trying 

 

It was more putting square pegs in round holes

 

i should have said lack of SUCCESSFUL adjustments ?

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1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I think the perfect example of this was Rex and his defense here in Buffalo.  How many times over the 2 years did we hear defenders talking about calls coming in that they did not practice and therefore the team was still reacting to the call at the snap.  

 

Even if the new new play was correct because the players were less familiar and had not practiced it - the fit did not work and it left gaps to be exploited.  Now if Rex had been here for years and the guys had practiced the plays together numerous times in the past and knew how everyone would react - you can call these special plays and get away with it, but as the team was uncomfortable with the plays - it lead to more failure than success.

 

Of course you see some of the backside of that with Dennison who was slower to change and adapt and struggled because he got poor reads on plays because the QB could not follow the offensive script.

 

You need that middle ground - tweaks and coaching in-game and major changes at halftime to ensure you get the best of both worlds.

Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts,

 

finding the middle ground, I like that summary

 

thanks for the reply

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6 hours ago, Commonsense said:

It’s a foolish debate. Each matchup is a different beast. You have to be willing to adjust but also need to know when to be patient and allow for your own players to execute the game plan. 

 

Having a “feel” for the game is a real thing and all good coaches have it. That is knowing when and when not to abandon the game plan .

 

That was a point of mine. If you get the feeling the game is going 1 way do you address it instantly or wait

 

im more inclined to address it asap

5 hours ago, eball said:

Seems to me you're trying to oversimplify a much more complicated analysis.  Good coaches have a solid game plan and give it a chance to succeed before making significant adjustments.  That moment may come after a few series or it may come at halftime when there's a bit of a "breather" to regroup.  Give up on a game plan too early and I'm left wondering why you thought it was a good idea in the first place.

 

Obviously its more complicated than I’m letting on. I was trying to give as much info about the debate as I could type lol

 

im not talking about abandoning gameplans in a series or 2... but if it isn’t working in the second maybe tweak some things 

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13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

 

I don't think either of you were really wrong or right. It really boils down to what either of you mean by 'adjustments'.

 

If it's a simple tweaking of what plays you're calling to counter what they're doing on the field or some changes to the protection calls, then they should be done on the fly. If it means throwing out the game plan and winging it, you should wait for halftime to make that decision - unless there is something fundamentally wrong with the gameplan that is readily apparent from the outset, such as your gameplan is to pound the rock up the middle 50 times, and they immediately present a 9-man front on every play.

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