My Debate with a HC

[4BillsintheBurgh]

4 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

The primary piece of Bellichick's coaching that I admire (and it pains me to admire him) is his willingness to IMMEDIATELY make in-game adjustments. Sometimes it seems like the first couple drives are diagnostic in nature, and once he and his staff accurately assess the opponent's plan, they set about countering that plan.

 

Obviously that's not always necessary, or at least major adjustments aren't always called for (based on well-scouted gameplans and/or superior players/execution), but I've seen countless clips of him meeting with coaches and position groups on the sideline, detailing changes in approach and with specific techniques. 

 

Halftime is a great opportunity to lay out more comprehensive plans for the final 30 minutes, but I don't think waiting to tweak or adjust or even scrap certain gameplans makes any sense. 

I saw Mike Zimmer mention something in the offseason that having current game film available during the game would make it too easy to make adjustments and shouldn't be allowed. I immediately thought that's going to  be the next thing the Pats* get caught at.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I think it depends on what you mean by adjustments? Changing your play calls? Blocking schemes? Personnel? Some are easier done on the fly. As we know, the 11 man game of football can be treacherous to a team not on the same page. If you are changing something complex such as a blocking scheme, it is probably best to wait until the half to make sure everyone is on the same page. That being said, minor adjustments are being made all game and not just at half. It is my thought that major schematic adjustments wait until the half, as to not abandon the game plan too early. 

 

It works for BB and TB12. They are the best second half team in football

[H2o]

My kids both play youth football and I help out with both teams. One is in one league and one a league up due to their ages. Granted it's not HS or College where things are a bit different, but you have to adjust on the fly. The games themselves go by quickly on the field. If you don't make changes as needed you may find yourself in a hole you can't get out of. Sometimes you can't wait for halftime. Then at halftime you can further explain what you want to do. These kids retain more info that you would think so you always have at least a couple of directions you can go with playcalling on offense. Defense is more positioning and giving your best athletes individual assignments if certain kids on other teams need to be shadowed. 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Yea I didn’t believe I “won” the debate... there are tons of correct ways to go about it depending on circumstances

 

its not really cut and dry like I make it out... there is definitely a happy middle ground to be found

 

it stemmed from a Bills conversation about Dennison and his lack of adjustments... we were clearly 20x better as a power run team under center vs a zone run team under center 

 

Hopefully Daboll can exploit our strengths against opponents weaknesses 

 

and you are correct , also to set up plays later on that look like the script plays at the LOS but arent

 

 

This is part art of what I can’t stand - Dennison had a lot of faults, but he was hired to bring in a certain offense that the coach envisioned for a long term success.  You make it sound as if he did not make changes throughout the season or in game.  

 

He adjusted a ton throughout the year both in game and out of game.  The issues stem from the expectations that players will also adapt to coaching and get better and as was talked about numerous times by Sal on WGR - TT was unable to adapt and it forced Dennison to scrap what he wanted to do and implement a plan that he was less comfortable with.  The Bills had a very, very limited offensive roster with many players with a limited skill set at key positions and this very much impacts how much you can adjust you overall game plan.

 

Now I will fully agree that Dennison was not the fit for the team as it was constructed for week 1.  The players did not really fit what he and the HC wanted and he was slow to adapt, but TT was also injured in preseason so he did not have a couple of weeks of his starting QB to see that he could not handle the offense and his back-up in Peterman could handle it.

 

Once you get through the preseason the in-season major adjustments take weeks to implement because you are changing assignments for players and have to get everyone on the same page - for the Bills it took about 4 weeks.  We saw a similar change happen year 1 under Marrone where they wanted to run the up-tempo offense with a veteran QB and when Kolb was injured in training camp and then concussed in the last game - it took about 4 weeks to completely adjust the offense to EJ.

 

 

[K-9]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

Is this coach a proponent of scripting plays to begin a game?

 

And sometimes, there is just no adjusting for being physically dominated and getting your ass kicked. But that's another discussion. 

[CommonCents]

It’s a foolish debate. Each matchup is a different beast. You have to be willing to adjust but also need to know when to be patient and allow for your own players to execute the game plan. 

 

Having a “feel” for the game is a real thing and all good coaches have it. That is knowing when and when not to abandon the game plan .

[K-9]

20 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

I saw Mike Zimmer mention something in the offseason that having current game film available during the game would make it too easy to make adjustments and shouldn't be allowed. I immediately thought that's going to  be the next thing the Pats* get caught at.

They essentially have that with the still photos they pour over after every series. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

It’s a foolish debate. Each matchup is a different beast. You have to be willing to adjust but also need to know when to be patient and allow for your own players to execute the game plan. 

 

Having a “feel” for the game is a real thing and all good coaches have it. That is knowing when and when not to abandon the game plan .

 

Agree and knowing what is a different gameplan that your players will be able to execute and what is a good plan in theory but you don't have the personnel to make good on the field.  

[BuffaloBillyG]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Agree. I’m not arguing to go crazy with adjustments just that waiting till Halftime isn’t necessary 

I think smart coaches do it both ways tbh. If in the 1st quarter you see what you are doing isn't working, making a small tweek is vital. Kind of keeping a band aid on the situation to remain competitive. Halftime you have more time so you can put forward some larger changes to the game plan. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Too bad Wrecks couldn't have been party to a discussion like you and the coach had.

[eball]

Seems to me you're trying to oversimplify a much more complicated analysis.  Good coaches have a solid game plan and give it a chance to succeed before making significant adjustments.  That moment may come after a few series or it may come at halftime when there's a bit of a "breather" to regroup.  Give up on a game plan too early and I'm left wondering why you thought it was a good idea in the first place.

[BigPappy]

7 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

So recently I got into a debate with a local college coach about strategy and how to call a game...

 

He was trying to argue that making halftime adjustments is key to a football coaches success... that what you do or don’t do at half can make or break a game and set you up for success or failure... that tweaking too much can do more harm than good 

 

I argued that I, and the best football coaches I have ever met DONT wait for halftime to adjust ... they do it on the fly right after the first series... Diagnosing what the opposing team is doing and countering it as soon as possible is how it should be done ... not necessarily abandoning your game plan quick... my point was football is fluid and can change. I definitely don’t mean abandon your gameplan in a drive or 2

 

just if you are feeling the game isn’t going one way you need to adjust ASAP not wait

 

Abandoning your gameplan early is definitely a sign you did a bad job at scouting 

 

If I came into the game with a gameplan of airing it out but instantly realized my WRs were outmatched due to a circumstance but their front was susceptible, why wait till halftime to adjust?

 

The next series I am going Maryland and pounding it down their throats

 

Which coach would you rather have? The one who adjusts seamlessly on the fly? Or the one who waits till halftime?

 

(DISCLOSURE)

The conversation first started on Dennison and his inabilities as a coordinator 

 

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Your thoughts are a bit flawed IMO for one major reason.  Execution.  

 

There are players on both sides of the ball being paid to execute their own plan.  Just because some things aren’t going your way early doesn’t mean the game plan is flawed.  You can’t just abandon it so fast.  There are so many minor circumstances that can impact the failure or success on any given play.  Sometimes you need to trust your gameplan longer than you are suggesting.  

 

That being said, to your point, I agree you don’t always have to wait to halftime to start trying to adjust to what’s happening on the field.  But there is also a lot more that can be changed at halftime as the coordinators and assistant coaches can gather more info, review more photos and tape, etc to identify bigger adjustments to counter the parts that aren’t working.  

 

So I think there is truth in both sides of the argument, but i think in your case you are not allowing enough time to develop flow in the game before suggesting to make big adjustments and I also think you are underestimating the complexity of these changes and over simplifying what it truly means to implement significant game plan changes on the fly versus what can be done during halftime.  

 I have to go with Alphadawg7 on this. It's like he picked it right out of my brain and put it to paper. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

They essentially have that with the still photos they pour over after every series. 

Next step:  "Hey, whose drone is that hovering up there?!"

 

The New England drone has 2 cameras.  One to watch play on the field, one to watch the opposing coach to read his lips.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Next step:  "Hey, whose drone is that hovering up there?!"

We just know it would be Belichick's. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

We just know it would be Belichick's. 

While you were typing that, I was adding the NE comment.  

[ddaryl]

Sometimes a team just needs to find a rhythm, and that can take more than a few series so I can see the reasoning for not panicking and waiting for half time

 

But if the wheels are off after a few series then I agree, can't wait for halftime either, so the debate goes both ways IMO

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree and knowing what is a different gameplan that your players will be able to execute and what is a good plan in theory but you don't have the personnel to make good on the field.  

 

That later seemed to be one of Dennison's Achilles heels.

7 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

it stemmed from a Bills conversation about Dennison and his lack of adjustments... we were clearly 20x better as a power run team under center vs a zone run team under center

 

Dennison's problem seemed to be that he couldn't identify what his personnel were good at using multiple game films

In contrast to Doug Pederson, who, given a week or two to look at old Foles films, came up with some mods to his scheme that took two great teams apart

 

Someone on Cover1 did a piece after the Bills-NOrleans game where he pointed out Dennison didn't adjust the pass routes for the coverage N'Orleans was actually running until the 4th Q.  That's clearly too freakin' long!  Seems to me at the least, you got to figure out what coverage you're actually facing from the stills and adjust to that ASAP.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That later seemed to be one of Dennison's Achilles heels.

 

It did with Tyrod, but to change things to suit Tyrod meant a fundamental re-imagining of his offence and because Rico wasn't the architect of that offense himself he was overmatched trying to do that. 

 

He did adjust the concept of his run blocking scheme for the o-line at the bye week though, and it worked. I think he started the season asking to o-line to do something it couldn't do very well. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It did with Tyrod, but to change things to suit Tyrod meant a fundamental re-imagining of his offence and because Rico wasn't the architect of that offense himself he was overmatched trying to do that. 

 

He did adjust the concept of his run blocking scheme for the o-line at the bye week though, and it worked. I think he started the season asking to o-line to do something it couldn't do very well. 

 

Absolutely he started the season asking the o-line to do something it couldn't do well.  Someone - I think it was Kirby - came back from an open training camp or maybe a preseason game and reported he didn't think much of Dennison's run schemes, we were going to struggle. 

 

You're right, he did adjust at the bye week, but that's freakin' ridiculous.  He should have been able to see it after the first game confirmed the findings of preseason.

 

I assume Dennison might have been one of the offensive coaches that Dilfer called out in his comments about NFL QB rooms where the coaches can't really provide an in-depth answer to "why?" because they got it from someone else and they don't really have that depth.  I hope that is not true of Daboll!

[CommonCents]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Absolutely he started the season asking the o-line to do something it couldn't do well.  Someone - I think it was Kirby - came back from an open training camp or maybe a preseason game and reported he didn't think much of Dennison's run schemes, we were going to struggle. 

 

You're right, he did adjust at the bye week, but that's freakin' ridiculous.  He should have been able to see it after the first game confirmed the findings of preseason.

 

I assume Dennison might have been one of the offensive coaches that Dilfer called out in his comments about NFL QB rooms where the coaches can't really provide an in-depth answer to "why?" because they got it from someone else and they don't really have that depth.  I hope that is not true of Daboll!

One of Dilfer’s better points.