Start Allen from Day 1/ QB competition

[tlfcbb]

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is certainly true, and yep, I loved Shaq.  I am finding it difficult to be cheery though I confess.  I am strictly off discussing Allen's pros and cons until he gets on the field.  But I haven't managed to stop feeling the way I felt, because what I see is still what I see. 

 

Hi gunner, just wondering if your name has a arsenal link.  If so, that might explain why you're finding it hard to be cheery at the minute lol. My brother is a gunner and I swear I haven't seen him smile in two years.

 

 

[eball]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Warner said at the end of this that all 3 of our QBs are "basically the same guy... they're not mobile guys."

 

I went from enjoying Kurt's miraculous career with the Rams to basically muting the TV whenever he's on.  He's an arrogant, know-it-all prick and this comment alone proves he has no clue what he's doing.

[Doc Brown]

There's no magic formula for when to start a rookie 1st round round QB.  I'm really not that concerned if he plays this year or whether he starts week 1.  My main worry continues to be do we have the right coaching staff and play caller in Daboll to develop him into an NFL quality QB.  You look at Wentz and Goff.  They both had success last year with a head coach who was a previous successful offensive coordinator.  Since McDermott is a defensive guy, it falls on Daboll and Culley to help develop Allen to give him the highest chance of success on the field.  Their expertise in that area is the most unknown factor going into this year.

[eball]

7 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

There's no magic formula for when to start a rookie 1st round round QB.  I'm really not that concerned if he plays this year or whether he starts week 1.  My main worry continues to be do we have the right coaching staff and play caller in Daboll to develop him into an NFL quality QB.  You look at Wentz and Goff.  They both had success last year with a head coach who was a previous successful offensive coordinator.  Since McDermott is a defensive guy, it falls on Daboll and Culley to help develop Allen to give him the highest chance of success on the field.  Their expertise in that area is the most unknown factor going into this year.

 

This times 1,000,000.  I read post after post on this forum claiming Allen's development will be hindered if he starts "too soon" -- before anyone has even seen what he does in training camp or preseason!  I remain convinced that at least 75% of those claiming Allen is a "project" are just mimicking something they heard on a sports talk show or podcast, just like those claiming he has accuracy issues lazily point only to his college completion percentage.

 

Beane and McD did the right thing by naming Allen the #3 QB going into camp.  They've made it clear publicly that they're not expecting Allen to start, but you better believe they're ready to name him the starter if it's clear in training camp he's better than McCarron and Peterman.

 

But to Doc's point, there is no evidence to suggest either starting or sitting a 1st round QB is more likely to result in either a boom or bust.

[LeGOATski]

21 minutes ago, eball said:

 

This times 1,000,000.  I read post after post on this forum claiming Allen's development will be hindered if he starts "too soon" -- before anyone has even seen what he does in training camp or preseason!  I remain convinced that at least 75% of those claiming Allen is a "project" are just mimicking something they heard on a sports talk show or podcast, just like those claiming he has accuracy issues lazily point only to his college completion percentage.

 

Beane and McD did the right thing by naming Allen the #3 QB going into camp.  They've made it clear publicly that they're not expecting Allen to start, but you better believe they're ready to name him the starter if it's clear in training camp he's better than McCarron and Peterman.

 

But to Doc's point, there is no evidence to suggest either starting or sitting a 1st round QB is more likely to result in either a boom or bust.

I've always pointed to the fact that he missed a stationary target net from 10 yards away. 

[cd1]

Brian Daboll - Rookie OC ( for all intents and purposes)

 

I don't care how good Allen looks, the Bills have another "rookie" with an (unproven) important role.

 

I think it will be imperative to let Daboll get his feet wet and settle his playbook/personnel arrangement BEFORE allowing Allen take a snap.

 

The Bills offense is going to go through a lot of "growing pains" in 2018 - It is my hopes that they experiment with less important QBs.

 

All that said - I can't wait to see Allen in the game.

[Kirby Jackson]

43 minutes ago, cd1 said:

Brian Daboll - Rookie OC ( for all intents and purposes)

 

I don't care how good Allen looks, the Bills have another "rookie" with an (unproven) important role.

 

I think it will be imperative to let Daboll get his feet wet and settle his playbook/personnel arrangement BEFORE allowing Allen take a snap.

 

The Bills offense is going to go through a lot of "growing pains" in 2018 - It is my hopes that they experiment with less important QBs.

 

All that said - I can't wait to see Allen in the game.

This is his 4th NFL OC job AND he held the position at Alabama. I’m not sure how he can possibly be considered a rookie? I think that it’s fair to say “did this guy get better under Saban and Belichick?” I don’t think that it’s fair to pretend that he’s learning what the job entails.

[cd1]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is his 4th NFL OC job AND he held the position at Alabama. I’m not sure how he can possibly be considered a rookie? I think that it’s fair to say “did this guy get better under Saban and Belichick?” I don’t think that it’s fair to pretend that he’s learning what the job entails.

 

Rookie OC ( for all intents and purposes)

 

Daboll in new to this team. He needs to evaluate personnel and design plays for THIS TEAM.

 

Undoubtedly, he will find that some plays won't work as well as others based on personnel deficiencies.  

[ALF]

Poll today at wgr550      how many games will Allen start this season

 

leading so far with 43%    is    0-3  games

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, tlfcbb said:

 

Hi gunner, just wondering if your name has a arsenal link.  If so, that might explain why you're finding it hard to be cheery at the minute lol. My brother is a gunner and I swear I haven't seen him smile in two years.

 

 

 

It does.... but the reason I am not cheery about the Bills is entirely unlinked to Arsenal. I want to talk myself into Josh Allen I just haven't been able to yet. 

 

The difference between my Arsenal fandom and my Bills fandom is I believe I have already lived the best of the former. If I die without ever seeing us win another league (and I am only 33) I can still die in the comfort of having seen the best Arsenal team of all time in 2004 do something I never thought was possible. 

 

With the Bills I am still waiting for that moment. I think we have the right coach, I am optimistic overall about the GM and his direction.... I can't talk myself into liking our Quarterback room though. So far this regime has drafted 2 Quarterbacks.... I didn't like either as prospects (though at different levels obviously). 

On 11/05/2018 at 12:30 PM, ShadyBillsFan said:

Well then it looks like you are in for a miserable season.    

 

Forget who you wanted and how disappointed you may be and lets get behind who we have and hope they are good at what they do and lead us to a playoff WIN.    

 

 

Again, for the millionth time since the draft... I will get behind anyone who wears the Charging Buffalo. I support the name on the front not the name on the back. There is a difference between what you want to happen and what you think will happen.

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Do you think Cam obviously hurt his team by starting right away?

 

Do you think his 4,756 yards and 35 TDs obviously hurt his team?

 

Do you think Derek Anderson obviously would have led his team to more wins if he started instead of Cam?

 

Hindsight is 20/20 with everything, but I think the notion that Derek Anderson should have started in Cam Newton's rookie year is silly.

 

Moulding the perfect QB for every team by grooming him for 3 years like Aaron Rodgers or a year and a half like Tom Brady or a year plus like Phillip Rivers or for a bit like Eli Manning or a year like Patrick Mahomes or a year and a half like Colin kaepernick or a year like Jake Locker  is a wonderful concept, but we don't have an established pro bowl to HOF vet to hold the fort like is a Brett Favre, Drew Bledsoe, Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, Alex Smith, or Matt Hasslebeck.

 

We have the largely unknown AJ McCarron.

 

Me too.

 

There is a difference between Cam then and Allen now. The Panthers had gone 2-14 if I recall. They were a bad team starting a new cycle. You might as well get your guy out there and take your lumps and then slowly build a team around him. 

 

The Bills went 9-7 and made the playoffs. Me personally if I as coach thought the best thing for Allen was to start right away I would start him. Screw the 2018 record if we end up with a top 6 pick next year in a year where there might be some elite pass rushing prospects then it wouldn't be the worst thing. Not saying tank but put Allen out there and don't worry if his inconsistencies mean a 5-11 season. I am just not sure that is how McDermott and Beane are likely thinking. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, eball said:

But to Doc's point, there is no evidence to suggest either starting or sitting a 1st round QB is more likely to result in either a boom or bust.

 

That's because every QB's situation is different. But I bet if you looked at the ones that came into the league with serious mechanical issues, you would find that sitting them was beneficial more often than not. Too many people on this board are dismissing Allen's accuracy issues as "just" his footwork, acting like it's a simple fix. The hardest thing in the world to change is muscle memory. If we throw him into an NFL game before his muscle memory is fixed I don't think he'll ever unlearn it.

I think of Blake Bortles who had one promising season before reverting back to his old bad habits. The Jaguars had him playing in week 3 of his rookie season. He didn't have time to develop and now he might be ruined. Or Blaine Gabbert, another Jaguars QB forced into the starting role too early. He was sacked 40 times his rookie year, got injured in his 2nd, and never recovered. I don't know if their careers would have gone differently if they'd been given time, Mahomes will be a good test on this theory, but I personally think it would have made a difference. Allen struggles with footwork and he struggles with handling pressure. That's a recipe for disaster if we start him early.

[Rocky Landing]

4 hours ago, cd1 said:

 

Rookie OC ( for all intents and purposes)

 

Daboll in new to this team. He needs to evaluate personnel and design plays for THIS TEAM.

 

Undoubtedly, he will find that some plays won't work as well as others based on personnel deficiencies.  

You're really just arguing semantics here. If Daboll is a rookie, then so is Vontae Davis. I understand your point, but you undermine your own argument by overstating Daboll's situation. 

 

If the recent TC is any indication, Daboll seems excited to have Allen to work with, and he might be inclined to get him out there sooner, rather than later. But, he's also spent much of TC on top of Allen's mechanics. And, I'll assume that as he builds his playbook for this team, Allen's strengths and weaknesses will be a major factor in its creation. I also trust Daboll's (and McD's) ability to evaluate Allen's progress. I suspect they will exhibit patience where necessary, which is why I suspect Allen will not start right away. 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

There is a difference between Cam then and Allen now. The Panthers had gone 2-14 if I recall. They were a bad team starting a new cycle. You might as well get your guy out there and take your lumps and then slowly build a team around him. 

 

The Bills went 9-7 and made the playoffs. Me personally if I as coach thought the best thing for Allen was to start right away I would start him. Screw the 2018 record if we end up with a top 6 pick next year in a year where there might be some elite pass rushing prospects then it wouldn't be the worst thing. Not saying tank but put Allen out there and don't worry if his inconsistencies mean a 5-11 season. I am just not sure that is how McDermott and Beane are likely thinking. 

 

Dabol claims he has a plan for Allen... I suspect that'sa plan he would implement if Allen started right away that might involve a similar approach to what the Steelers did with Big Ben in his rookie season, where he started and they went to the playoffs and won a game.

 

Rely heavily on the run game. And while everyone points to an aging Shady and our OL departures as reasons that won't work, our RBs have gotten better simply because of the departure of Tolbert, which splits Shady's carries with a couple of young promising RBs we saw last year. And with all the concerns over our OL, from last year it's simply Bodine replacing Wood and Groy replacing Incognito... hopefully Miller improves in year 3, too. I'm excited to see what Groy can do and Bodine has been a capable starter in the league.

 

Even if Allen is the starting QB, I don't think it'll be with a vision of taking lumps and losing... I think Dabol and McDermott will have a plan to win now with the rookie.

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's because every QB's situation is different. But I bet if you looked at the ones that came into the league with serious mechanical issues, you would find that sitting them was beneficial more often than not. Too many people on this board are dismissing Allen's accuracy issues as "just" his footwork, acting like it's a simple fix. The hardest thing in the world to change is muscle memory. If we throw him into an NFL game before his muscle memory is fixed I don't think he'll ever unlearn it.

I think of Blake Bortles who had one promising season before reverting back to his old bad habits. The Jaguars had him playing in week 3 of his rookie season. He didn't have time to develop and now he might be ruined. Or Blaine Gabbert, another Jaguars QB forced into the starting role too early. He was sacked 40 times his rookie year, got injured in his 2nd, and never recovered. I don't know if their careers would have gone differently if they'd been given time, Mahomes will be a good test on this theory, but I personally think it would have made a difference. Allen struggles with footwork and he struggles with handling pressure. That's a recipe for disaster if we start him early.

 

I think the "seriousness" of his mechanical issues are overblown. Big Ben and Joe Flacco we're said to have mechanics issues coming into the league. Both started immediately and made the playoffs in year 1.

 

This is not to say Allen doesn't have mechanical issues, but I really question the veracity of the consistent argument that he's a significant outlier in terms of mechanics from what other 1st round QBs have been for the last decade plus, which has seen high 1st round draft picks consistently starting in year 1.

 

And while Mahomes may be a good test now positively, it won't prove much--Jake Locker sat his 1st year in 2011 and it really seemed to do him no good at all.

Edited May 12, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[eball]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's because every QB's situation is different. But I bet if you looked at the ones that came into the league with serious mechanical issues, you would find that sitting them was beneficial more often than not. Too many people on this board are dismissing Allen's accuracy issues as "just" his footwork, acting like it's a simple fix. The hardest thing in the world to change is muscle memory. If we throw him into an NFL game before his muscle memory is fixed I don't think he'll ever unlearn it.

I think of Blake Bortles who had one promising season before reverting back to his old bad habits. The Jaguars had him playing in week 3 of his rookie season. He didn't have time to develop and now he might be ruined. Or Blaine Gabbert, another Jaguars QB forced into the starting role too early. He was sacked 40 times his rookie year, got injured in his 2nd, and never recovered. I don't know if their careers would have gone differently if they'd been given time, Mahomes will be a good test on this theory, but I personally think it would have made a difference. Allen struggles with footwork and he struggles with handling pressure. That's a recipe for disaster if we start him early.

 

I guess it all depends upon the "serious mechanical issues" diagnosis.  I think that is entirely overblown with Allen.  The bottom line is more often than not talent wins out.  Blake Bortles and Blaine Gabbert can't hold a candle to Allen's talent.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

I guess it all depends upon the "serious mechanical issues" diagnosis.  I think that is entirely overblown with Allen.  The bottom line is more often than not talent wins out.  Blake Bortles and Blaine Gabbert can't hold a candle to Allen's talent.

 

I've watched a lot of film on Allen and personally I see too many throws off his back foot and reacting to pressure that isn't there. He has tremendous arm talent, no denying that, but his inconsistent mechanics and pocket presence will sink him if they don't get cleaned up. I just don't think that will happen if he's forced to start early. Of course I'm not watching him at every practice and seeing him develop in the film room, so I'll trust their decision until I'm given a reason not to.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

14 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

 

If Allen starts the season but ***** the bed, your approach will last 3, maybe 4 games.

 

Then folks around here will be screaming for anyone and everyone to replace him.

 

 

Not sure where that came from.  Do you think I said they should start Allen?

 

What I had said with that quote was that people gotta get over who they wanted and accept what we have.  

 

As someone else pointed out for those being over critical will be eating a lot of crow if I’m this case Allen is successful.   

 

And yes yes on the other hand you can claim how right you were.  But we are many months away from making any assessment.  

 

Whoever clearly wins the job should start.  

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

I guess it all depends upon the "serious mechanical issues" diagnosis.  I think that is entirely overblown with Allen.  The bottom line is more often than not talent wins out.  Blake Bortles and Blaine Gabbert can't hold a candle to Allen's talent.

 

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Dabol claims he has a plan for Allen... I suspect that'sa plan he would implement if Allen started right away that might involve a similar approach to what the Steelers did with Big Ben in his rookie season, where he started and they went to the playoffs and won a game.

 

Rely heavily on the run game. And while everyone points to an aging Shady and our OL departures as reasons that won't work, our RBs have gotten better simply because of the departure of Tolbert, which splits Shady's carries with a couple of young promising RBs we saw last year. And with all the concerns over our OL, from last year it's simply Bodine replacing Wood and Groy replacing Incognito... hopefully Miller improves in year 3, too. I'm excited to see what Groy can do and Bodine has been a capable starter in the league.

 

Even if Allen is the starting QB, I don't think it'll be with a vision of taking lumps and losing... I think Dabol and McDermott will have a plan to win now with the rookie.

 

I think the "seriousness" of his mechanical issues are overblown. Big Ben and Joe Flacco we're said to have mechanics issues coming into the league. Both started immediately and made the playoffs in year 1.

 

This is not to say Allen doesn't have mechanical issues, but I really question the veracity of the consistent argument that he's a significant outlier in terms of mechanics from what other 1st round QBs have been for the last decade plus, which has seen high 1st round draft picks consistently starting in year 1.

 

And while Mahomes may be a good test now positively, it won't prove much--Jake Locker sat his 1st year in 2011 and it really seemed to do him no good at all.

 

Get out of my head!!!

[Figster]

Myself personally, the Bills are in somewhat of a rebuild mode, especially on O with new coaching/ system installation. The wise approach is to allow the more experienced McCarron take the bumps and bruises until the supporting cast /system is established and fully operational in my humble opinion. 

 

Josh Allen is Buffalo's future, I get that, and I'm as excited as the next guy to see him play. 

 

 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

I just watched Allen's PC for rookie minicamp and the kid just strikes me as being an absolute sponge that's already absorbed a ton, but is still perceived as dry.

 

Asked about the accuracy concerns his response and expression just gave me the sense of a guy who's thinking "there's that question, finally, so here's the standard response I need to give--but you're in for a real surprise if you believe I have serious accuracy issues."

 

That's not remotely what he said... it's just the subtleties of his response that make me think he was thinking that.

 

Love the respect, admiration and clear desire to learn from Jumbo, too.

 

Oh, also something new that just adds to what I've been finding since we drafted him as more evidence to believe he was just kinda plagued by being a late physical bloomer: he only ultimately realized he had a Division 1 arm as a Senior in HS.

Edited May 13, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[Victory Formation]

Have an honest competition, best man wins, if that guy is Allen then start him, best players on the field.

On 4/29/2018 at 5:13 PM, xRUSHx said:

Sorry I don't agree. Allen needs to sit awhile IMO he far from ready. 

 

IMO McC will be the starter and Peterman will back him up. Once Allen moves up to backup McC I think it will only be for reps so if AJ goes down for some reason IMO Peterman will jump over Allen and take over as the starter to finish the season or until AJ returns. IMO Allen will sit all year and fight for the starter roll in 2019 when he will be more ready for it and this team has more to offer him as in protection and play makers. To tell you the truth IMO I can see this team not winning much this season and having a very good draft pick next draft to add to this drafts building for the future where in the long run will pay off that much more then a lucky wild card IMO. IMO McC will be traded next season and Peterman will be the career backup here his entire contract and through his next. IMO the Allen era will not start till 2019.

Why though? If Allen wins the QB competition, why shouldn't he start?