Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 3 hours ago, K-9 said: Not saying he isn't going to be effective eventually, but I have concerns about him working from under center initially. He's just never done it. And it takes time to master. Many an effective NFL QB has played a game almost entirely from shotgun. Teams that played <30% of their snaps from under center last year include Carolina, Detroit, Philly, Pitts, and KC. When they were under center, they only passed 22-31% of the time. So they only passed from under center <10% of the time if my math is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Many an effective NFL QB has played a game almost entirely from shotgun. Teams that played <30% of their snaps from under center last year include Carolina, Detroit, Philly, Pitts, and KC. When they were under center, they only passed 22-31% of the time. So they only passed from under center <10% of the time if my math is right. Although there are certain timing schemes that rely on snaps from under center, operating from under center is about more than just the passing game. It affords much more scheme flexibility when you can present varying alignments to a defense. Regardless, it is an aspect of the pro game that needs to be developed in QBs that have never done it. I’m sure Mayfield won’t have any problem eventually, but I suspect there will be bumps initially; on top of the bumps associated with learning the pro game anyway. In the system he’s coming from, he hasn’t seen the diversity in defenses on a week to week basis for instance. All I’m saying is, like most rookie QBs, I don’t think he’s a day one starter and I hope his development isn’t hurt by being forced to start before he’s ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 52 minutes ago, K-9 said: Although there are certain timing schemes that rely on snaps from under center, operating from under center is about more than just the passing game. It affords much more scheme flexibility when you can present varying alignments to a defense. Regardless, it is an aspect of the pro game that needs to be developed in QBs that have never done it. I’m sure Mayfield won’t have any problem eventually, but I suspect there will be bumps initially; on top of the bumps associated with learning the pro game anyway. In the system he’s coming from, he hasn’t seen the diversity in defenses on a week to week basis for instance. All I’m saying is, like most rookie QBs, I don’t think he’s a day one starter and I hope his development isn’t hurt by being forced to start before he’s ready. I am not arguing about whether a pro QB should be able to operate under center. It is quite possible that I understand something about scheme? Certainly Mayfield will need to learn to take snaps from under center. I'm saying is factually, a number of successful offenses 1) operate very little from under center - as little as 24% of total snaps 2) when they are under center, don't pass much - less than 30% of their snaps under center Therefore, a successful offensive scheme could be devised for Baker Mayfield's strengths which had work very minimally under center, and not pass much when he's there If the reason you feel he's not a day 1 starter is because he's never worked under center, that can be adapted for initially. That is all. If Cosell is correct that he's really a 1-read-and-throw QB, he will have other problems and he might need some time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 - Mayfield 2/3 - Darnold/Rosen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I think a lot of fans as usual are overlooking the flaws that a spread offense can hide. Mayfield is good but not great at many things. Slow with his reads and poor or rather inconsistent footwork. I won't be surprised if Mayfield falls in this draft. I could see him doing well in a few years, right system etc, but I could also see him flame out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Good line: "Too many snaps with his head working side-to-side indicating he saw everything and saw nothing." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Just now, dave mcbride said: Good line: "Too many snaps with his head working side-to-side indicating he saw everything and saw nothing." It is a good line. Maybe I’m totally missing it with Baker but I see an assassin when he’s on the run, like Russell Wilson and maybe Brett Favre. He keeps his eyes downfield while moving and is dead-accurate throwing on the run. Maybe folks are right that he’ll live and die by whether he can work the pocket like Brees but I’m not convinced it’s a must in today’s NFL. Offenses are changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I had Mayfield as my #1 QB a couple weeks ago but he's solidly my #3 now. QBs that come from spread systems don't work out very often. He will need some time learning NFL offenses and refining his mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: It is a good line. Maybe I’m totally missing it with Baker but I see an assassin when he’s on the run, like Russell Wilson and maybe Brett Favre. He keeps his eyes downfield while moving and is dead-accurate throwing on the run. Maybe folks are right that he’ll live and die by whether he can work the pocket like Brees but I’m not convinced it’s a must in today’s NFL. Offenses are changing. Don't get me wrong -- I think he'll be a good pro and perhaps the best of the lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 QB1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I am not arguing about whether a pro QB should be able to operate under center. It is quite possible that I understand something about scheme? Certainly Mayfield will need to learn to take snaps from under center. I'm saying is factually, a number of successful offenses 1) operate very little from under center - as little as 24% of total snaps 2) when they are under center, don't pass much - less than 30% of their snaps under center Therefore, a successful offensive scheme could be devised for Baker Mayfield's strengths which had work very minimally under center, and not pass much when he's there If the reason you feel he's not a day 1 starter is because he's never worked under center, that can be adapted for initially. That is all. If Cosell is correct that he's really a 1-read-and-throw QB, he will have other problems and he might need some time. I wasn’t insulting your understanding of schemes. Sorry if it came across that way. Operating from under center is a required skill. I will just let it go at that. He is a one read QB because all he has seen most of the time is a steady diet of some version of quarters zone coverage in college. So yeah, that’s a bigger concern making the jump. Edited April 21, 2018 by K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: Good line: "Too many snaps with his head working side-to-side indicating he saw everything and saw nothing." I have just consistently had a feeling with Mayfield that there is a false read in what you see of him on tape. I think this Cosell take kind of sums it up. He's good but he's also a hustler trained in showing people what they want to see to get him where he wants to be. Still a good prospect but I have had him a significant notch below Darnold and Rosen. I really like all of the top 5 prospects but Darnold and Rosen are just much cleaner prospects IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said: It is a good line. Maybe I’m totally missing it with Baker but I see an assassin when he’s on the run, like Russell Wilson and maybe Brett Favre. He keeps his eyes downfield while moving and is dead-accurate throwing on the run. Maybe folks are right that he’ll live and die by whether he can work the pocket like Brees but I’m not convinced it’s a must in today’s NFL. Offenses are changing. The thing is........he isn't nearly the athlete of Wilson OR nearly the big, strong armed QB that Favre was. He's clearly not the pro style QB/passer Brees was/is either. If he makes it big he will be a one-of-a-kind....... but he sure has a knack of drawing comparisons to greats because he has or at least seems to show *some* traits they have. I saw a Jeff Garcia comparison.........that seems to be a much better comparison to me. Jeff Garcia was very good until he hit his early 30's........if you got his best play for a decade you'd have gotten excellent QB play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: The thing is........he isn't nearly the athlete of Wilson OR nearly the big, strong armed QB that Favre was. He's clearly not the pro style QB/passer Brees was/is either. If he makes it big he will be a one-of-a-kind....... but he sure has a knack of drawing comparisons to greats because he has or at least seems to show *some* traits they have. I saw a Jeff Garcia comparison.........that seems to be a much better comparison to me. Jeff Garcia was very good until he hit his early 30's........if you got his best play for a decade you'd have gotten excellent QB play. And you may be right. Certainly you're right that he's not the athlete Wilson is and he doesn't have Favre's arm (tho his arm seems stronger than Garcia's was). But as I said, I've never seen someone who can throw the ball so accurately downfield while moving. Does that trait alone guarantee success? Definitely not. But I think that trait, coupled with his high processing speed (his analytic test scores suggest some of Cossell's analysis is misplaced) and his desire to be the best will vault him to stardom. Then again, I am no expert evaluator. I just go by my own eyes - I saw Mayfield destroy good defenses over and over again, it looked almost effortless, and defenses who tried to move him out of the pocket paid dearly for it. Also this: https://sports.yahoo.com/news/greg-cosells-nfl-draft-breakdown-accomplished-deshaun-watson-has-areas-to-work-on-164552341.html Edited April 21, 2018 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 16 hours ago, jr1 said: mobile with a high completion percentage. Sign me up Flute 2.0 I'm In !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 17 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ..putting aside personal preferences, what is the hunch as far as McBeane?................. He is not a target IMO. If we were planning on installing a college system (or at best a customized hybrid combo of college and pro concepts) why get rid of Tyrod Taylor. If your franchise fancy is a dual threat QB not only is Taylor your best mentor but as we've seen you will get much better production from Tyrod too as he sets the table for Baker in a RPO offence. We know what happens when you try to force Tyrod into the classic pocket passer mould and that hardly seems to be the scheme suited to Mayfield either. But it suits Rosen or Darnold pretty well (and our current placeholder McCarron). Although it doesn't make a lot of sense to me personally, the Brown's overpaying for Taylor with the 65th pick suggests that they may indeed be swinging for the fences and taking Allen instead of Darnold. My sense of it is that Beane and the Bills want a traditional pocket passer, especially after seeing how they managed Cam in Carolina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo44 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Only at number 12 and that’s if Rosen is not there.Too many question marks about him, not the least of which is his height To me he is, by far, the most overrated of the top four. Would rather the bills not get him but I’ll support it if they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 hours ago, starrymessenger said: He is not a target IMO. If we were planning on installing a college system (or at best a customized hybrid combo of college and pro concepts) why get rid of Tyrod Taylor. If your franchise fancy is a dual threat QB not only is Taylor your best mentor but as we've seen you will get much better production from Tyrod too as he sets the table for Baker in a RPO offence. We know what happens when you try to force Tyrod into the classic pocket passer mould and that hardly seems to be the scheme suited to Mayfield either. But it suits Rosen or Darnold pretty well (and our current placeholder McCarron). Although it doesn't make a lot of sense to me personally, the Brown's overpaying for Taylor with the 65th pick suggests that they may indeed be swinging for the fences and taking Allen instead of Darnold. My sense of it is that Beane and the Bills want a traditional pocket passer, especially after seeing how they managed Cam in Carolina. ....thanks for the assessment....much appreciated bud......seems like "traditional pocket passer" leaves Jackson out of the mix as well?............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ....thanks for the assessment....much appreciated bud......seems like "traditional pocket passer" leaves Jackson out of the mix as well?............ Your welcome. For what it's worth (probably not much) I don't think Jackson is out of the discussion as a pocket passer and therefore someone who might interest Beane. Right now the only throw he makes on a consistently accurate basis is the inside slant. He can make all other required throws but his accuracy is inconsistent, especially on out patterns. Some analysts are of the view that his flaws re lower body mechanics are very correctable. Beane's moves can be interpreted as a gigantic Lamar smokescreen ie don't bring him in, move to 12 to leap frog Zona, feign interest in moving up etc...but obviously that's a real stretch. I actually think they may be more intrigued with Allen than with Lamar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 13 hours ago, dave mcbride said: Good line: "Too many snaps with his head working side-to-side indicating he saw everything and saw nothing." That is a good line. Now we gotta get him to yell, "Omaha!", to really sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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