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What If A QB Says No? Can They Say No Any More?


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3 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

The NFL draft is probably illegal. It's allowed to exist because the players and owners realize the mutual benefits of the competitive balance it provides. The NFL is run like a communist collectivity, with its revenue sharing amongst franchises and similar policies that have grown it into the premiere sports league. They don't want to have to deal with a minor league, so the College ranks are a de facto farm team for the clubs. Simply put, ending the draft would probably destroy the NFL as we know it. It's a well worn argument that the draft is likely illegal, but it works and enriches the league so it's been accepted as the way it is. 

 

??

How is it "probably illegal"?

 

Many business have their own rules that you have to abide by when you join that company.

The NFL draft is one of those things you sign up for when you want to work as a player for the NFL.

There's nothing "illegal" about it.

Just like many large medical practices/hospitals have a "non-compete clause" in their contracts, wherein you cannot work for a competitor in X mile radius on the side, and when you leave the company you have a set time duration and mileage radius you cannot practice in.

Your assertion that it's "illegal" makes zero sense.

 

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4 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

Actually, I really don't understand the legality of the draft.  From a legal perspective, why can't I work for who I want to work for?   I realize the teams are part of an association whose rules require the members (the teams) to abide by the draft rules, but these rules would make no sense in a commercial employment context.   Most states are right to work states (New York is an exception) and you can work for whoever makes the best offer.  That would of course turn football into baseball with a half dozen big city teams having all the players (and the league enforces the draft to avoid that), but still that is our employment system in this country. 

 

 I guess my point is we are all free agents, all the time.   Why not stop the draft and have all the college guys be free agents day 1 ?  If I want Sam Darnold, why can't I go sign him?   Yeah the contracts of the best 20 guys would be out of control, but It would all work out in the end.   College football players aren't getting educations worth a crap anyway, so who cares if the NFL becomes the NBA in terms of underclassmen coming out?   it would all self correct as soon as a few 19 year olds get blown up playing in the NFL.  Thoughts?  

 

It's legal because it is collectively bargained.  It's one of the arguments for the player's union to de-certify rather than go on strike.  If there's no union, this becomes illegal.

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Just now, Epstein's Mother said:

 

Actually got paid more than he would have likely made in the NFL.  I don't know where that option exists anymore. 

 It doesn't and that's why they would be less likely to say no to the team that drafted them now.

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1 hour ago, fergie's ire said:

It's legal because it is collectively bargained.  It's one of the arguments for the player's union to de-certify rather than go on strike.  If there's no union, this becomes illegal.

 

I don't believe that. If you work at a company that has locations in 20 different states, you don't get to automatically choose which location you work at because you aren't in a union. Same goes for college job fairs where they recruit college grads. They allocate their resources where they deem necessary. The NFL does the same. If you want to work for them, you have to follow their rules and fill the positions they need you to fill.

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7 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

Actually, I really don't understand the legality of the draft.  From a legal perspective, why can't I work for who I want to work for?   I realize the teams are part of an association whose rules require the members (the teams) to abide by the draft rules, but these rules would make no sense in a commercial employment context.   Most states are right to work states (New York is an exception) and you can work for whoever makes the best offer.  That would of course turn football into baseball with a half dozen big city teams having all the players (and the league enforces the draft to avoid that), but still that is our employment system in this country. 

 

 I guess my point is we are all free agents, all the time.   Why not stop the draft and have all the college guys be free agents day 1 ?  If I want Sam Darnold, why can't I go sign him?   Yeah the contracts of the best 20 guys would be out of control, but It would all work out in the end.   College football players aren't getting educations worth a crap anyway, so who cares if the NFL becomes the NBA in terms of underclassmen coming out?   it would all self correct as soon as a few 19 year olds get blown up playing in the NFL.  Thoughts?  

 

 

I understand and agree with your point on the draft as a concept. However, legally speaking, it has no basis. Playing in the NFL is joining a union, it's collectively bargained and part of joining the union can include being drafted. They can choose to work where they want, they just won't make as much playing football as they would in the NFL. No one is forcing them to play football, the draft is something they sign up for.

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8 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

Actually, I really don't understand the legality of the draft.  From a legal perspective, why can't I work for who I want to work for?   I realize the teams are part of an association whose rules require the members (the teams) to abide by the draft rules, but these rules would make no sense in a commercial employment context.   Most states are right to work states (New York is an exception) and you can work for whoever makes the best offer.  That would of course turn football into baseball with a half dozen big city teams having all the players (and the league enforces the draft to avoid that), but still that is our employment system in this country. 

 

Look up "NFL Anti-trust Exemption".  It's why they get away with that ****.

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9 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

Actually, I really don't understand the legality of the draft.  From a legal perspective, why can't I work for who I want to work for?   I realize the teams are part of an association whose rules require the members (the teams) to abide by the draft rules, but these rules would make no sense in a commercial employment context.   Most states are right to work states (New York is an exception) and you can work for whoever makes the best offer.  That would of course turn football into baseball with a half dozen big city teams having all the players (and the league enforces the draft to avoid that), but still that is our employment system in this country. 

 

 I guess my point is we are all free agents, all the time.   Why not stop the draft and have all the college guys be free agents day 1 ?  If I want Sam Darnold, why can't I go sign him?   Yeah the contracts of the best 20 guys would be out of control, but It would all work out in the end.   College football players aren't getting educations worth a crap anyway, so who cares if the NFL becomes the NBA in terms of underclassmen coming out?   it would all self correct as soon as a few 19 year olds get blown up playing in the NFL.  Thoughts?  

 

I would look at it more like this... The NFL is the overall corporation,  with franchises in 32 different locations that all draw from a common talent pool.  If there were other comparable leagues that could compensate players at a similar rate, you would see more of a free market approach.  Since they're by far the biggest consumer of football talent, they can dictate the rules of employment.  Also players declare themselves eligible to be drafted, basically agreeing to this system.

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9 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

Actually, I really don't understand the legality of the draft.  From a legal perspective, why can't I work for who I want to work for?   I realize the teams are part of an association whose rules require the members (the teams) to abide by the draft rules, but these rules would make no sense in a commercial employment context.   Most states are right to work states (New York is an exception) and you can work for whoever makes the best offer.  That would of course turn football into baseball with a half dozen big city teams having all the players (and the league enforces the draft to avoid that), but still that is our employment system in this country. 

 

 I guess my point is we are all free agents, all the time.   Why not stop the draft and have all the college guys be free agents day 1 ?  If I want Sam Darnold, why can't I go sign him?   Yeah the contracts of the best 20 guys would be out of control, but It would all work out in the end.   College football players aren't getting educations worth a crap anyway, so who cares if the NFL becomes the NBA in terms of underclassmen coming out?   it would all self correct as soon as a few 19 year olds get blown up playing in the NFL.  Thoughts?  

 

NFL is an allowed monopoly so many normal work rules do not apply.

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10 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

From a legal perspective, why can't I work for who I want to work for?

 

You can. If you don't want to work for the corporation known as the NFL, then you can work for the CFL or another football league. Or not play professional football.

 

Players know that the NFL is their best option to make a bunch of money, so they abide by the rules, including the draft.

 

 

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5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

People need to get over their WNY inferiority complex. Would a player rather go to Cleveland? The Browns were winless and haven’t been competitive for years! The Jets? NYC isn’t anything to scream at and the Jets will always be the LA Clippers in that town. As I see it, I’d much rather step into Buffalo where the team just made the playoffs, the coach is young, the fan base is forgiving, and I get to be the biggest show in town. Sign me up!

  An inferiority complex has nothing to do with it.  The NFL recognizes that the players in most demand will bypass certain NFL cities  they deem undesirable.  Pleasant weather, low or no state income taxes, and hot bed of night life are the main things most 21-22 year old men are interested in.  Competitive balance would cease to exist as players would choose NFL cities such as Miami, Tampa Bay, and Jacksonville as Florida has no personal income taxes.  The same with Dallas and Houston in Texas.  Then there is LA and SF although with a fairly high tax burden the night life is among the best of the NFL cities.  The draft is the only way that cities such as Buffalo, Cleveland, Green Bay, etc. have an opportunity to select post graduate players in quite a  number of cases.  How many high level college players have a tie such as family to lure a player to a city such as Buffalo?  Very few unfortunately.  HIgh valued college players from WNY are pretty rare and other than Gronk I can only readily think of OT Albert and Shane Conlan.

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15 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

??

How is it "probably illegal"?

 

Many business have their own rules that you have to abide by when you join that company.

The NFL draft is one of those things you sign up for when you want to work as a player for the NFL.

There's nothing "illegal" about it.

Just like many large medical practices/hospitals have a "non-compete clause" in their contracts, wherein you cannot work for a competitor in X mile radius on the side, and when you leave the company you have a set time duration and mileage radius you cannot practice in.

Your assertion that it's "illegal" makes zero sense.

 

There has been much written on the subject over the years. Look it up. It's not my opinion , but rather the assertion of many legal experts over time. There have been threats of lawsuits and challenges by College players. All antitrust exemptions aside, the draft itself on its own merits is probably illegal if it were challenged in a court of law. In the past it hasn't gotten to that point because judges say the league and players should work it out themselves. That if the judges have to decide then neither party will like the outcome . Again, this is far from the first time the subject has come up and I'm only citing from memory opinions of legal experts who say the draft probably wouldn't hold up in court. The draft has continued to exist because it works ( i.e generates beaucoup dollars) for the league and players, though it does restrict their rights that they would enjoy if they worked in other industries. 

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I can't do side work in my field of employment or work for any company that is considered a competitor in any capacity. To say it's illegal or wouldn't hold up in court is not true. If you enter the draft,  they are drafting your NFL rights for a year. If a player wants to work at McDonalds, they can't stop him, but he can't work for a competitor. 

 

The player can re-enter the draft the following year, but will most likely be taken in a later round after being out of football for a year which means 1 missed year of pay followed by a smaller rookie contract. Couple that with short career associated with football and it's hardly a good idea. 

 

Top players could probably force a trade and lower round guys might get just get cut.

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7 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

There has been much written on the subject over the years. Look it up. It's not my opinion , but rather the assertion of many legal experts over time. There have been threats of lawsuits and challenges by College players. All antitrust exemptions aside, the draft itself on its own merits is probably illegal if it were challenged in a court of law. In the past it hasn't gotten to that point because judges say the league and players should work it out themselves. That if the judges have to decide then neither party will like the outcome . Again, this is far from the first time the subject has come up and I'm only citing from memory opinions of legal experts who say the draft probably wouldn't hold up in court. The draft has continued to exist because it works ( i.e generates beaucoup dollars) for the league and players, though it does restrict their rights that they would enjoy if they worked in other industries. 

 

The NFL (the NBA, NHL, MLB also, for that matter) are not "other industries" in a "free market"

They are CHOOSING TO WORK FOR THE NFL, and thus are abiding by the rules within that company.

 

Yes, I can choose what physical therapy company to work for (I'm a PT), but I can't always choose my location within that company.

 

We have multiple offices, and guess what?

I got transferred a few years ago to one of the other offices, 49 miles away, two days after I had just moved to a new home less than 5 minutes form my old office.

Did I have a say in that?

Nope.

I had two options.

Take the transfer or quit.

No other options.

So my employer dictated where I worked.

 

The NFL draft is not illegal because the players and owners agree to the CBA.

It's the same reason the salary cap, rookie wage scales, vet minimums, etc are all allowed.

In an open, free market, they are not legal, and I understand that, but within the confines of the NFL they are allowed because the player's association and the owners all agreed on them.

It is done for competitive balance.

Teams in desirable places (Miami, Los angles, NYC, states with no income tax) would have a huge advantage, like they do in free agency.

If there was no salary cap, the good teams could just keep signing the good players as free agents.

This goes in conjunction with why the draft exists, so teams have a choice of who's available, and teams like the browns aren't left picking through scraps every year.

Yes I've read all the bullsh*t posturing about it how it violates free market, monopoly, blah blah.

This is because there is no other league where the players could go to make comparable $$.

If one of the sides decided to take it to court, then the judge would more than likely disband the league and the draft as a whole, by dissolving the CBA.

So yes, the concept of a draft might be illegal in a free market, but as it stands, it is not illegal since the CBA is an agreement which bypasses that.

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3 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

The NFL (the NBA, NHL, MLB also, for that matter) are not "other industries" in a "free market"

They are CHOOSING TO WORK FOR THE NFL, and thus are abiding by the rules within that company.

 

Yes, I can choose what physical therapy company to work for (I'm a PT), but I can't always choose my location within that company.

 

We have multiple offices, and guess what?

I got transferred a few years ago to one of the other offices, 49 miles away, two days after I had just moved to a new home less than 5 minutes form my old office.

Did I have a say in that?

Nope.

I had two options.

Take the transfer or quit.

No other options.

So my employer dictated where I worked.

 

The NFL draft is not illegal because the players and owners agree to the CBA.

It's the same reason the salary cap, rookie wage scales, vet minimums, etc are all allowed.

In an open, free market, they are not legal, and I understand that, but within the confines of the NFL they are allowed because the player's association and the owners all agreed on them.

It is done for competitive balance.

Teams in desirable places (Miami, Los angles, NYC, states with no income tax) would have a huge advantage, like they do in free agency.

If there was no salary cap, the good teams could just keep signing the good players as free agents.

This goes in conjunction with why the draft exists, so teams have a choice of who's available, and teams like the browns aren't left picking through scraps every year.

Yes I've read all the bullsh*t posturing about it how it violates free market, monopoly, blah blah.

This is because there is no other league where the players could go to make comparable $$.

If one of the sides decided to take it to court, then the judge would more than likely disband the league and the draft as a whole, by dissolving the CBA.

So yes, the concept of a draft might be illegal in a free market, but as it stands, it is not illegal since the CBA is an agreement which bypasses that.

Again, not my opinion but rather opinions of lawyers when the issue came up in the past. I do not need convincing, nor do I need explanations as to why the draft exists today. I understand the arguments for and against it, and there are certainly opinions on both sides as to what could occur if it were legally challenged in a court of law. I was merely responding to a question posed as to why it exists in its current form today, and why eliminating it via legal challenge could end the league as we know it. An earlier post in the thread seemed to be banging a drum for ending the draft, so I replied to that. 

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