Moving up to #2 = No Playoffs for the next three years

[Wily Dog]

I will remind you all that the only time we went to the Super Bowl we had a real quarterback.

[Green Lightning]

On 4/3/2018 at 12:04 PM, Domdab99 said:

 

Just because it works one time out a hundred doesn't mean it's going to work again. 

Doesn't mean it won't.

On 4/3/2018 at 12:05 PM, Domdab99 said:

Plus, we've got a huge cap surplas next year....we can be very pro-active in FA then. 

Yes, all those assets and still crap for a QB = no playoffs for 17 years.

30 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

Immediately transformed? -Who comes up with this bullsh_t?

 

Both teams had foundations in place before their QB's ever arrived... But, by all means, ignore the fact that the Rams tried drafting a savior, in the form of Sam Bradford, back in 2010.... -How'd that work out?... Any astute observer can point to a series of moves, (and eventualities) OTHER than Jared Goff that led to the Rams success.

The taking of Aaron Donald in RD' 1 of the 2014 draft was a foundation move that would pay dividends later on... Drafting Jared Goff in '16 PLUS taking 2 TE's in that same draft, was also proof the Rams were thinking "right"... Perhaps the biggest turning point, was the firing of HC Jeff Fisher in week 16 o the 2016 season! -New ideas flowed in with the hiring of McVay, and the departure of OC Rob Boras ( current Bills TE coach) for Matt LeFleur.. But the largest contributing factor in the LA Rams success, was the decline of the ENTIRE NFC West!  Time finally caught up with the Seahawks as they failed to field a top 10 defense for the first time since '2012!  L.A. was able to split with the Niners (rested starters wk. 17)  and Seahawks, plus issue beat-downs to ARIZ in both games. Contributing to this laughable schedule strength was the sub-500  Giants Texans, and Colts, plus the non-playoff Cowboys!  LeFleur is now gone and the Niners seem back on track, so let's see what '18 Brings...

 

Then there's the Eagles deception... -A fake narrative of the process that led them to the Superbowl... PHI only added a top draft QB when they had solid help at TE, OT, and WR.. Not to mention role players at DT, LB, and DE on defense... -Does anyone see anything like that around the Bills roster? - I sure as hell Don't!... If anything we helped the RAMS by trading them our two best WR's! ... The Eagles then proceeded to re-inforce that foundation by doubling down on positions like TE, RB, WR and even Quarterback! 

-In the end, it wasn't Philly's shiny, new, 2016 #1 overall pick that led the way, but a near-washout, journeyman 3rd rounder!  So, what's the REAL lesson here?

 

Some of you are so stoked at the prospect of BUF finally drafting a top 3 QB, that you've completely taken leave of your senses.

 

So have you watched the team at all in the past 17 years?  If that makes "sense" to you I guess mediocrity is comfortable for you.

[bills in oregon]

On 4/3/2018 at 1:06 PM, MAJBobby said:

 

So they Built around their trade up QB. 

 

Amazing people here against trading up say that is impossible 

Not sure if you understand what I mean Phillies defense was built before they traded up. We have way too many holes and empty spots where we need people that are stoners before we draft a rookie QB. Besides you could potential he give up five players for one player that me not see the field for three years.

[Batman1876]

2 minutes ago, bills in oregon said:

Not sure if you understand what I mean Phillies defense was built before they traded up. We have way too many holes and empty spots where we need people that are stoners before we draft a rookie QB. Besides you could potential he give up five players for one player that me not see the field for three years.

How good does a team need to be in order to win with a bad QB? If the QB has to sit for three years then your plan is 4 years from now our QB and team will be ready to compete, just in time for the salary cap to start pulling that team you carefully built apart. 

[White Linen]

42 minutes ago, bills in oregon said:

Not sure if you understand what I mean Phillies defense was built before they traded up. We have way too many holes and empty spots where we need people that are stoners before we draft a rookie QB. Besides you could potential he give up five players for one player that me not see the field for three years.

 

Yet we played excellent defense last year and got better in the off season, IMO.  Wait until you see the difference with a defensive tackle next to Kyle. 

 

Philly's defense was not built. In 2015 under Chip Kelly they got dominated by their opponents stats wise - ranked 30th in yds allowed and 28th in points allowed.  They fired Kelly, hired Pederson who hired Schwartz, drafted a rookie QB - the following year they're in the super bowl.   You are incorrect.  Still managed to win after giving up all those "critical picks" to get Wentz.  Building through the draft is only a small portion of building a team and the most important is finding a QB in the draft.  Find the right QB and the right Head Coach and that's the majority of what you need.

[Koufax]

On 4/3/2018 at 9:08 AM, Logic said:

I'll see your "Moving up to #2 = no playoffs for the next three years" and raise it a "No franchise QB = no Super Bowl Championships for the next decade".

Under normal circumstances, I might be inclined to agree with you, but the Bills' 2018 draft is not "normal circumstances". They've spent two full offseasons offloading talent after talent JUST to accumulate picks for this very purpose. As it stands now, they could reasonably trade up, get a quarterback, STILL have a decent amount of picks to use this year, and then go into 2019 with nearly $100 million in cap space to build around the young QB.

Can't say "maybe next year" forever. Go get a QB and be done with it.

I like this. Playing the Jags on the road or even getting Norwood a shot from 47 isn't the goal. Winning a Super Bowl is what all macro decisions should be built on, especially regarding the QB position. Free agent line backers and guards and third round picks can all he based on depth chart and winning right now, but everything big should be about identifying which of these guys gives us the best shot at winning a Super Bowl, and doing what it takes to get him, even if we don't have a pick left to take a Maybin or Troupe or Hardy of Whitner...those kind of blue chips who all but guarantee a Lombardi...

[Lfod]

No one can be certain what will happen until the draft unfolds.  I'm excited and feeling the hype. Kudos to Beane for getting to #12. It adds to the hype. 

 

I'm actually in favor of multiple moves if it makes sense. The more you jump and pay for a QB, the more weight on his success. The more you play it safe, the more that haunts you if the team struggles with subpar QB. 

 

If I felt I could work with a lot of these QBs I might wait and see if one falls in rage. If I really only had my sights set on one or two I thought could really be elite, I might pay the price to get it done.

 

So I think in the end we move up again before it's said and done. I just don't know if it will be to #2.

 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, #34fan said:

 

Immediately transformed? -Who comes up with this bullsh_t?

 

Both teams had foundations in place before their QB's ever arrived... But, by all means, ignore the fact that the Rams tried drafting a savior, in the form of Sam Bradford, back in 2010.... -How'd that work out?... Any astute observer can point to a series of moves, (and eventualities) OTHER than Jared Goff that led to the Rams success.

The taking of Aaron Donald in RD' 1 of the 2014 draft was a foundation move that would pay dividends later on... Drafting Jared Goff in '16 PLUS taking 2 TE's in that same draft, was also proof the Rams were thinking "right"... Perhaps the biggest turning point, was the firing of HC Jeff Fisher in week 16 o the 2016 season! -New ideas flowed in with the hiring of McVay, and the departure of OC Rob Boras ( current Bills TE coach) for Matt LeFleur.. But the largest contributing factor in the LA Rams success, was the decline of the ENTIRE NFC West!  Time finally caught up with the Seahawks as they failed to field a top 10 defense for the first time since '2012!  L.A. was able to split with the Niners (rested starters wk. 17)  and Seahawks, plus issue beat-downs to ARIZ in both games. Contributing to this laughable schedule strength was the sub-500  Giants Texans, and Colts, plus the non-playoff Cowboys!  LeFleur is now gone and the Niners seem back on track, so let's see what '18 Brings...

 

Then there's the Eagles deception... -A fake narrative of the process that led them to the Superbowl... PHI only added a top draft QB when they had solid help at TE, OT, and WR.. Not to mention role players at DT, LB, and DE on defense... -Does anyone see anything like that around the Bills roster? - I sure as hell Don't!... If anything we helped the RAMS by trading them our two best WR's! ... The Eagles then proceeded to re-inforce that foundation by doubling down on positions like TE, RB, WR and even Quarterback! 

-In the end, it wasn't Philly's shiny, new, 2016 #1 overall pick that led the way, but a near-washout, journeyman 3rd rounder!  So, what's the REAL lesson here?

 

Some of you are so stoked at the prospect of BUF finally drafting a top 3 QB, that you've completely taken leave of your senses.

 

 

 

Sorry, he's right. 

 

Know when they got a QB? When one was available. 

 

And Wentz was 11-2 last year while Foles was 2-1 against a very weak schedule while teams didn't have film on him. Foles looked pretty average or below in the game when he took  Their timing was perfect. If you're going to get your QB injured, do it with just a few games left in the year so teams don't know how to handle him in that offense. And especially do it after your franchise QB has gotten you to a place where you can have a bye week before your playoffs start to change the offense to make teams surprised at how your backup looks in those playoffs.

 

Wentz was the key piece. They don't win without him. And they didn't have a strong lineup his first year. Agholor and Matthews were the WRs, a decent group, not great.

 

And yet even with the harvest of picks they had to give up to get Wentz they were able to "reinforce that [7-9] foundation." Notice that we have a lot of cap room next year? We can do the same thing.

 

You're right that the Eagles had more when they traded for Wentz than we have now. Fair enough. For that reason it's likely to take two or three or four years for us to get to real good instead of the two the Eagles took. Assuming they do a good job picking the QB and assembling the pieces around him. But the Eagles went 7-9 the year before the trade and 7-9 the year after. They weren't good.

 

 

2 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

Yet we played excellent defense last year and got better in the off season, IMO.  Wait until you see the difference with a defensive tackle next to Kyle. 

 

Philly's defense was not built. In 2015 under Chip Kelly they got dominated by their opponents stats wise - ranked 30th in yds allowed and 28th in points allowed.  They fired Kelly, hired Pederson who hired Schwartz, drafted a rookie QB - the following year they're in the super bowl.   You are incorrect.  Still managed to win after giving up all those "critical picks" to get Wentz.  Building through the draft is only a small portion of building a team and the most important is finding a QB in the draft.  Find the right QB and the right Head Coach and that's the majority of what you need.

 

 

This, precisely.

 

You put it better than I did. Thanks.

 

However, I wouldn't call the defense we played "excellent." Surprisingly competent, though. Certainly right up there with the Eagles 2015 defense, though, and probably better.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, bills in oregon said:

Not sure if you understand what I mean Phillies defense was built before they traded up. We have way too many holes and empty spots where we need people that are stoners before we draft a rookie QB. Besides you could potential he give up five players for one player that me not see the field for three years.

 

 

How can you say the Eagles defense was built before they traded up?

 

Their starters in 2015 were Fletcher Cox, Cedric Thornton, Bennie Logan, Connor Barwin, Brandon Graham, Mychal Kendricks, DeMeco Ryans, Nolan Carroll, Byron Maxwell, Malcolm Jenkins and Walter Thurmond.

 

How many of those guys still start? Graham, Cox, Kendricks, and Jenkins? And you claim the defense was built before? That doesn't hold up. Yeah, they had Graham and Cox, and that helped them a ton, but they had to make a ton of moves to fill in.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

How can you say the Eagles defense was built before they traded up?

 

Their starters in 2015 were Fletcher Cox, Cedric Thornton, Bennie Logan, Connor Barwin, Brandon Graham, Mychal Kendricks, DeMeco Ryans, Nolan Carroll, Byron Maxwell, Malcolm Jenkins and Walter Thurmond.

 

How many of those guys still start? Graham, Cox, Kendricks, and Jenkins? And you claim the defense was built before? That doesn't hold up. Yeah, they had Graham and Cox, and that helped them a ton, but they had to make a ton of moves to fill in.

 

Yep. They already had a decent front but had a ton of work to do around that. The Bills already had a decent secondary and a lot of work to do.... it really isn't that different. 

[#34fan]

2 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

Yet we played excellent defense last year and got better in the off season, IMO.  Wait until you see the difference with a defensive tackle next to Kyle. 

 

Philly's defense was not built. In 2015 under Chip Kelly they got dominated by their opponents stats wise - ranked 30th in yds allowed and 28th in points allowed.  They fired Kelly, hired Pederson who hired Schwartz, drafted a rookie QB - the following year they're in the super bowl.   You are incorrect.  Still managed to win after giving up all those "critical picks" to get Wentz.  Building through the draft is only a small portion of building a team and the most important is finding a QB in the draft.  Find the right QB and the right Head Coach and that's the majority of what you need.

 

Philly's defense was anchored by pro bowler Connor Barwin, and perennial pro-bowler Fletcher Cox.. In 2015 Chip Kelly had that entire defense playing out of scheme... Hence, they sucked badly... In 2016 they finished as the NFL's 12th ranked defense under Jim Schwartz...  Kelly and his staff were awful, so the coaching changes from '15-'16 (Chip Kelly and Billy Davis) to '16-'17 (Frank Reich and Jim Schwartz) improved BOTH sides of the ball.

The Base WR and TE talent from '15 remained largely in tact with Agholor, Matthews, Burton, Celek, and Ertz welcoming Wentz to the equation in '2016.

 

The Bills current situation is quite different... How long can KW continue to be effective?  -Who will replace Dareus?..  What can we expect out of Shaq Lawson?... Can we upgrade from Preston Brown?..  Will Charles Clay's health hold up?... Is O'Leary a long-term solution at TE?... Wtf can we expect out of Zay Jones?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!!

 

Now you wanna place a rookie QB in the middle of this mess, and expect some big turnaround?  

 

Why not fix the issues?...  Use the valuable picks you have to draft  young NFL starting talent!... That way, you bring your rookie QB into the best possible situation.

 

 

[#34fan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. They already had a decent front but had a ton of work to do around that. The Bills already had a decent secondary and a lot of work to do.... it really isn't that different. 

 

It is Bill...

From DAY ONE Wentz lined up behind a pro bowl center, and two pro-bowl tackles... All of which were firmly in place LONG before he ever got there..

Does anyone even KNOW what our current O-line situation is ?

Yet everyone wants to draft the notoriously fragile Josh Rosen...

 

Seriously, -why not draft a crash-test dummy and call it a day?!!   -We simply collect the limbs after the thing gets smashed to f__ing pieces!

-OR-

OBD can do it's homework... They can build this thing RIGHT with the picks they've got... They can draft as well as they can, and let AJ be the new OC's crash dummy in '17.

[Zerovoltz]

On 4/3/2018 at 1:24 PM, mjt328 said:

 

Three years.  Seems like an exaggeration.  But just for fun, let's go with it.

 

Let's assume we mortgage two full years worth of picks.  We give up #12 and #22 this year, along with our 2019 1st Rounder and a few 2nds/3rds for good measure.  We literally can't draft any top prospects until 2020.  And this sets the franchise back a full 3 years with NO playoffs.

 

If that gives us a CHANCE to get the franchise QB we are looking for, I will take that deal without question.  Because once those 3 years of sacrifice are over, we are setup with a QB who can keep us in championship contention for the next 10-12 years.  Maybe even a Super Bowl.

 

 

 

Now consider the alternative.  We stay put at #12 and all the strong QB prospects are gone.  So we load up on the D-Line, Linebackers, Wide Receivers, etc.  Don't forget we still need to use a Day 2 pick on a QB, like Mason Rudolph or Luke Faulk, who have a much higher chance of becoming nothing in the NFL.

 

Our roster is awesome for the next three years, but we can't get farther than the Wild Card/Division Round, because of mediocre QB play.  Then in 2022, all of our fantastic draft picks are Free Agents.  We only have so much cap space, so we can only re-sign half of those guys. 

 

.... And we are back to the exact same place as April 2018. 

 

 

 

 

This thread is basically what I joined this place for.....this exact same thread exists on KC boards everywhere for the last 2 decades.  So many fans always arguing we had "holes to fill"  ....You all probably recall that KC was in the playoffs all the damn time from 1990 to about 2006.  All we ever did was fill holes.  And our organization was actually good at that.  Many good drafts and free agent finds to fill out rosters.  A long long line of great RB's in that time.  Some super offensive lines.  Pro Bowl pass rushers, and defensive backs...and always making playoffs......and always losing in the playoffs.  Lost to Marino twice.  Manning twice.  Elway, Roethlisberger twice, JIM KELLY, Luck, Brady......I am not that smart, but it doesn't seem like a coincidence that Elvis Grbac, and Chaz Bono....Damon Huard, Matt Cassel etc would find themselves on the losing team in playoff games vs THOSE GUYS.  When you try and make the argument that you can win without a QB, it is worthwhile to look at the teams that pulled it off.  The 2000 Ravens being an example...had great drafts for 3 years or so in a row (very hard to do and very unlikely) and added some great free agent pieces to that team (Shannon Sharpe, Rod Woodson) ...and got game manager play out of Dilfer....AND everything fell just right for ONE SEASON.  If you want to use all your draft picks to fill holes and try and duplicate the 2000 ravens..knock yourselves out.  Kansas City tried it for decades that way, and even when you are reasonably successful at roster building...you have NOTHING wihtout a QB...you have a lottery ticket hoping that ONE season you were the ultimate roster building badass and everything comes together ONE time for that trophy.  GOOD LUCK!

 

19 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Minnesota.  Back in the late 1990s the Vikes went to the playoffs with Brad Johnson (1996 & 1997), Randall Cunningham (1998), Jeff George (1999), Daunte Culpepper (2000).  Then they came back in the last decade to make the playoffs 5 out of the last 10 years despite not having an entrenched franchise QB in his prime:  Gus Frerotte (2008), Favre (2009), Ponder (2012), Bridgewater (2015), and Keenum (2017).   

 

Furthermore, the Bills 17 years of playoff drought wasn't because they lacked a franchise QB.  They failed to make the playoffs for so long primarily because of poor FO decisions, from selecting HCs to drafting players to decisions about which FAs to keep and which FAs to sign.  The Bills had a franchise QB in Drew Bledsoe from 2002-2004, and failed to make the playoffs.  The only year where you actually argue that better QBing would have put them in the playoffs was in 2014 when Marrone dumped Manuel and went with retirement list refugee Kyle Orton who played rather poorly toward the end of the season.   Through most of the drought, the team didn't have enough talent on the sidelines or on the field to even be a playoff contender.

 

 

Expanding on my point.  KC went 13-3 with Steve Bono, they switched out to Elvis Grbac and went 13-3 a couple seasons later.  They switched out to Trent Green and went 13-3 again a couple more seasons later.  That was all sandwiched in between a bunch of 11-5, 10-6, 12-4 ETC.  You give me a roster with the best 52 NON QB in football and I can go 13-3 several times.  You give me Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady...an in his prime Jim Kelly...and I will find 52 football players to fill out my roster and win championships.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, #34fan said:

 

It is Bill...

From DAY ONE Wentz lined up behind a pro bowl center, and two pro-bowl tackles... All of which were firmly in place LONG before he ever got there..

Does anyone even KNOW what our current O-line situation is ?

Yet everyone wants to draft the notoriously fragile Josh Rosen...

 

Seriously, -why not draft a crash-test dummy and call it a day?!!   -We simply collect the limbs after the thing gets smashed to f__ing pieces!

-OR-

OBD can do it's homework... They can build this thing RIGHT with the picks they've got... They can draft as well as they can, and let AJ be the new OC's crash dummy in '17.

 

I was talking about the specific argument that their defense was in place and ours isn't. It's certainly true that they had a more complete offensive line in place but I don't think our is as disastrous as some do. It really played well down the stretch last year and it would benefit from a Quarterback capable of getting the ball out on time and not holding it for long enough to complete the whole box set of the Sopranos.  

[Lfod]

23 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

It is Bill...

From DAY ONE Wentz lined up behind a pro bowl center, and two pro-bowl tackles... All of which were firmly in place LONG before he ever got there..

Does anyone even KNOW what our current O-line situation is ?

Yet everyone wants to draft the notoriously fragile Josh Rosen...

 

Seriously, -why not draft a crash-test dummy and call it a day?!!   -We simply collect the limbs after the thing gets smashed to f__ing pieces!

-OR-

OBD can do it's homework... They can build this thing RIGHT with the picks they've got... They can draft as well as they can, and let AJ be the new OC's crash dummy in '17.

I agree with you. I want them to build the trenches. I want a good QB as well. I think having an o-line is important if you want to keep plugging QBs in until you find the right one.

 

I do think QBs can elevate a team and are important. I just can't argue that having a good o-line could help protect a system in development still. Have to get it running with AJ or Peterman lol.

 

Set the team up. We are in the age of QB desperation. Build up the surrounding team and keep plugging in nobody's until somebody clicks. Only don't wait 3 years. Do a few benchings a year. Have like 3 or 4 qbs

 

I think Beane might have backed himself into a corner when trading up. In to much of a position to be able to jump to not walk away with something. Although I won't be bothered if he lets the draft fall to him.

 

I am just under a strong position if the option is available at the right price Beane will bite. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Lfod

[row_33]

7 hours ago, Wily Dog said:

I will remind you all that the only time we went to the Super Bowl we had a real quarterback.

 

Most of the board never saw Jim Kelly play, we can’t deprive them of the fans constitutional right to worship Flutie or Tyrod.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, #34fan said:

 

Philly's defense was anchored by pro bowler Connor Barwin, and perennial pro-bowler Fletcher Cox.. In 2015 Chip Kelly had that entire defense playing out of scheme... Hence, they sucked badly... In 2016 they finished as the NFL's 12th ranked defense under Jim Schwartz...  Kelly and his staff were awful, so the coaching changes from '15-'16 (Chip Kelly and Billy Davis) to '16-'17 (Frank Reich and Jim Schwartz) improved BOTH sides of the ball.

The Base WR and TE talent from '15 remained largely in tact with Agholor, Matthews, Burton, Celek, and Ertz welcoming Wentz to the equation in '2016.

 

The Bills current situation is quite different... How long can KW continue to be effective?  -Who will replace Dareus?..  What can we expect out of Shaq Lawson?... Can we upgrade from Preston Brown?..  Will Charles Clay's health hold up?... Is O'Leary a long-term solution at TE?... Wtf can we expect out of Zay Jones?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!!

 

Now you wanna place a rookie QB in the middle of this mess, and expect some big turnaround?  

 

Why not fix the issues?...  Use the valuable picks you have to draft  young NFL starting talent!... That way, you bring your rookie QB into the best possible situation.

 

 

 

 

Yes, we want to place a rookie QB in the middle of this mess, probably on the bench for a year, and expect a big turnaround in the next 3 - 4 years. That's absolutely what we want to do, and it's frankly the best available plan.

 

Agreed we draft young NFL starting talent. Starting with a QB. Then fill in around him. We get that there are holes, but we also get that all the other holes are simply less important than QB.

 

If you do it your way you'll become a decent but not great team and have the 18th - 22nd picks somewhere in that area, and not have a franchise QB and not be able to trade up to get one. either because we're too far back. This is the problem you guys keep avoiding, that you can't just become an  8 - 10 win team, just missing or bombing out of the playoffs early and then trade up to get an excellent QB. In years where there's one or two good QBs they're even less likely to get out of the top one or two picks and generally the teams there want QBs. This was the Steelers for around 15 years before Roethlisberger. Great team except at QB. Not good enough to win a title. Unable to get a QB till their worst year gave them the #11 pick in a year that luckily had three terrific prospects. A triumph of luck.

 

That's the situation that results in getting good before you get your QB. After that you're too good to get a good QB. You get nothing but Slashes and O'Donnells and Tomczaks and Bristers and Blackledges and Mark Malones and Tommy Maddoxes unless 15 years down the road you have a bad season and get extremely lucky as to how far a very good QB falls.

 

It's a loser of a strategy. You get your QB when you have a chance. We have a terrific chance this year.

 

Go your way and yeah, you'll bring our QB into the best possible situation but that QB will be one of the Tommy Maddoxes and the Mark Malones and the Kordell Stewarts.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

This thread is basically what I joined this place for.....this exact same thread exists on KC boards everywhere for the last 2 decades.  So many fans always arguing we had "holes to fill"  ....You all probably recall that KC was in the playoffs all the damn time from 1990 to about 2006.  All we ever did was fill holes.  And our organization was actually good at that.  Many good drafts and free agent finds to fill out rosters.  A long long line of great RB's in that time.  Some super offensive lines.  Pro Bowl pass rushers, and defensive backs...and always making playoffs......and always losing in the playoffs.  Lost to Marino twice.  Manning twice.  Elway, Roethlisberger twice, JIM KELLY, Luck, Brady......I am not that smart, but it doesn't seem like a coincidence that Elvis Grbac, and Chaz Bono....Damon Huard, Matt Cassel etc would find themselves on the losing team in playoff games vs THOSE GUYS.  When you try and make the argument that you can win without a QB, it is worthwhile to look at the teams that pulled it off.  The 2000 Ravens being an example...had great drafts for 3 years or so in a row (very hard to do and very unlikely) and added some great free agent pieces to that team (Shannon Sharpe, Rod Woodson) ...and got game manager play out of Dilfer....AND everything fell just right for ONE SEASON.  If you want to use all your draft picks to fill holes and try and duplicate the 2000 ravens..knock yourselves out.  Kansas City tried it for decades that way, and even when you are reasonably successful at roster building...you have NOTHING wihtout a QB...you have a lottery ticket hoping that ONE season you were the ultimate roster building badass and everything comes together ONE time for that trophy.  GOOD LUCK!

 

 

Expanding on my point.  KC went 13-3 with Steve Bono, they switched out to Elvis Grbac and went 13-3 a couple seasons later.  They switched out to Trent Green and went 13-3 again a couple more seasons later.  That was all sandwiched in between a bunch of 11-5, 10-6, 12-4 ETC.  You give me a roster with the best 52 NON QB in football and I can go 13-3 several times.  You give me Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady...an in his prime Jim Kelly...and I will find 52 football players to fill out my roster and win championships.

 

How many playoff games have Phillip Rivers or Matthew Stafford won?   Jim Kelly and Dan Marino won 0 championships between them.  Aaron Rodgers has won only 1 championship as has Drew Brees.  Peyton Manning won only 1 championship with Indy, Andrew Luck none.   If you think that just drafting a "franchise QB" and "filling out the roster" is enough to win championships, guess again.

 

Of course, that presupposes the QB the team drafts in the first round actually becomes a "franchise QB" rather a JP Losman, Mark Sanchez, Matt Leinart, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker or EJ Manuel.

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was talking about the specific argument that their defense was in place and ours isn't. It's certainly true that they had a more complete offensive line in place but I don't think our is as disastrous as some do. It really played well down the stretch last year and it would benefit from a Quarterback capable of getting the ball out on time and not holding it for long enough to complete the whole box set of the Sopranos.  

 

The Bills OL is in no way comparable to Philly's, and it didn't play "really well down the stretch".  It played much better in the second half of the season compared to how it played early in the season, but that's not saying much because the OL really sucked early.  Moreover,  the center position has been weakened because Groy, who couldn't displace Wood as a starter, has now inherited the starting spot.

 

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, #34fan said:

 

It is Bill...

From DAY ONE Wentz lined up behind a pro bowl center, and two pro-bowl tackles... All of which were firmly in place LONG before he ever got there..

Does anyone even KNOW what our current O-line situation is ?

Yet everyone wants to draft the notoriously fragile Josh Rosen...

 

Seriously, -why not draft a crash-test dummy and call it a day?!!   -We simply collect the limbs after the thing gets smashed to f__ing pieces!

-OR-

OBD can do it's homework... They can build this thing RIGHT with the picks they've got... They can draft as well as they can, and let AJ be the new OC's crash dummy in '17.

 

 

We ... can ... sit ... the ... rookie ... behind ... McCarron. You guys keep not hearing this but it's a very decent possibility that first year.

 

Our OL may actually be pretty good. They were quite good before Wood's injury. And last time he played center Groy played well. The right side needs work but Ducasse was decent later in the year.  But our center looks decent and our LT played very well indeed last year.

 

And yet again, there's every chance our new QB spends a year on the bench behind McCarron.

 

Oh, and Vaitai was the tackle for 10 games in 2016 in Philly. Kelce and Peters were good but during the seasons the starters at guard weren't good enough and they had to bring in the backups. And you knew that, didn't you? It's the reason you only mentioned center and tackles.  

 

By the way, remind me, how many sacks did Philly allow this year? 50. 

 

The original sentiment here was that Philly'd already built the team up before they'd brought in Wentz. And the 2015 roster makes it very clear they hadn't, as does the major turnover during the next two seasons.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

2015 (7-9) Eagles offensive starters:  Sam Bradford, DeMarco Murray, Nelson Agholor, Riley Cooper, Jordan Matthews, Brent Celek, Jason Peters, Allen Barbre, Jason Kelce, Matt Tobin, Lane Johnson

 

2017 new starters: LeGarrette Blount, Alshon Jeffery, Torrey Smith, Zach Ertz, Halapoulivaati Vaitai (in place of injured Peters), Stefen Wisniewski, Brandon Brooks

 

The offense was in place? Who? Agholor, Celek, Peters, Barbre, Kelce, Lane Johnson. 

 

They spent 2016 and 2017 frantically putting new pieces in place around Wentz despite giving up all that draft ammo.