Making the case for Lamar Jackson

[502Buffs]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

There is so much wrong with this...

 

1.) Our OL is not that good, the right side especially - thankfully we matched Groy last year, so we at least have a center. Our depth is awful as well...

2.) The running game - aside from Shady who is 30 we have nothing.  It is hot garbage as well - Tolbert last year and Chris Ivory this year? Nothing scares me there...

3.) Wilson also took an amazing Jimmy Graham and made him literally disappear from the face of the earth.

4.) Beane does not value this in a QB at all...

 

Brandon Beane: You know, you love arm strength. You can't teach arm strength. You can probably improve it a little bit... the accuracy is very important. You know, the guys are not as open in the pros as they are in college, and so, it will show if you've got a guy that's inaccurate from the pocket.

 

You have to have the leadership qualities. You've got to get guys to follow you. It is a quarterback league, and if you don't have the leadership in the other guys, that's 11 guys on the field -- if they're not following you, it just doesn't work. I've seen quarterbacks that have arm talent. We've known the names in this league -- I'm not going to call them out -- that have all the talent in the world and they've been first-round picks.... but they aren't leaders. You've got to start there. You want to be able to have a passer that can throw from the pocket. It's good to be mobile... we love that. And obviously, Tyrod brings that, and I think Peterman has some things like that. You know, all these guys have some different qualities... there's not one thing, but, at the end of the day, quarterbacks in the NFL must be able to throw from the pocket.

 

Brandon Beane: Yeah, I mean, calculated risk... whatever you want to call it. There are some times when they are going to have to thread the needle. It's third and long, and it's late in the game, and we've got to get this play, and they're going to put a spy on the quarterback or something like that... he's got to stand in there, trust his reads, trust his progressions... and sling it and make the throw. You have to do that. In college, you see a lot of running quarterbacks that can just make a play with their own. Everything breaks down and it becomes sandlot football, and you do see some plays in the NFL, but the speed is so different here. It takes a special player to do it, and to do it often... and again, the pounding that you take. We saw that in Carolina last year. Cam took more hits last year than he had in the previous years, so, it's a tough league. And again, I'll go back to it: You have to be able to throw from the pocket.

Anybody we draft I believe is going to be a project. Jackson is capable of doing everything you just listed. I think you're assuming he's never going to feel comfortable in throwing in the pocket. P.S. this wasn't supposed to be a post about what we think McBeane is going to do. I'll leave you all to speculate that. I just think he is the best QB in this draft and is worth our consideration at 12 or 22. While I do think we need to draft a couple offensive lineman and probably a running back, don't act like our running game sucks. Losing Glenn and Wood hurts, but we have the capital to fill the holes. Which is also why we absolutely should not trade up to draft a quarterback. If we're going to throw someone in there with a bad offensive line like you say we have, I'd rather have someone mobile who can avoid hits.

14 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

There is so much wrong with this...

 

1.) Our OL is not that good, the right side especially - thankfully we matched Groy last year, so we at least have a center. Our depth is awful as well...

2.) The running game - aside from Shady who is 30 we have nothing.  It is hot garbage as well - Tolbert last year and Chris Ivory this year? Nothing scares me there...

3.) Wilson also took an amazing Jimmy Graham and made him literally disappear from the face of the earth.

4.) Beane does not value this in a QB at all...

 

Brandon Beane: You know, you love arm strength. You can't teach arm strength. You can probably improve it a little bit... the accuracy is very important. You know, the guys are not as open in the pros as they are in college, and so, it will show if you've got a guy that's inaccurate from the pocket.

 

You have to have the leadership qualities. You've got to get guys to follow you. It is a quarterback league, and if you don't have the leadership in the other guys, that's 11 guys on the field -- if they're not following you, it just doesn't work. I've seen quarterbacks that have arm talent. We've known the names in this league -- I'm not going to call them out -- that have all the talent in the world and they've been first-round picks.... but they aren't leaders. You've got to start there. You want to be able to have a passer that can throw from the pocket. It's good to be mobile... we love that. And obviously, Tyrod brings that, and I think Peterman has some things like that. You know, all these guys have some different qualities... there's not one thing, but, at the end of the day, quarterbacks in the NFL must be able to throw from the pocket.

 

Brandon Beane: Yeah, I mean, calculated risk... whatever you want to call it. There are some times when they are going to have to thread the needle. It's third and long, and it's late in the game, and we've got to get this play, and they're going to put a spy on the quarterback or something like that... he's got to stand in there, trust his reads, trust his progressions... and sling it and make the throw. You have to do that. In college, you see a lot of running quarterbacks that can just make a play with their own. Everything breaks down and it becomes sandlot football, and you do see some plays in the NFL, but the speed is so different here. It takes a special player to do it, and to do it often... and again, the pounding that you take. We saw that in Carolina last year. Cam took more hits last year than he had in the previous years, so, it's a tough league. And again, I'll go back to it: You have to be able to throw from the pocket.

I didn't mean to come across as ****ty btw 

Hey man, you stated your case well. I can take it. I probably did over-value our O-line, we have had one of the best rushing attacks the past 2-3 years, but losing Glenn and Wood hurts a lot. Which is why I, and the article you posted about Wilson, states you're better off having a running qb in these scenarios. In the process of his development there might be some bumps in the road, but I truly believe he will get better and better as a passer as he's shown through his college career.

[Reed83HOF]

14 minutes ago, Lfod said:

You are absolutely killing it man. Good job. 

 

I don't really know much about Lamar Jackson, but if he is just a mobile sandlot QB you definitely made a strong case that he won't be a Buffalo Bill. We definitely seen the result with Tyrod and it did trend down the longer he remained a starter. 

I'm just trying to read what little tea leaves there are to try to understand what Beane looks for in a QB. I think that during his time in CAR he saw how dynamic Newton is, but I think he also saw the issues that are there as well. I figure our best chance for figuring out who we might take is to what fits his profile.

 

There is nothing that says Jackson can't be a good NFL QB and he is a helluva athlete. There is a chance we could even end up with him depending where there draft falls and what players are rated where on our board. You obviously want to feel good about how a prospect can develop and that has to factor into as well. I don't see him as a fit from his style of play, but that doesn't mean wee would ignore him or he won't be on our board. If we take him, I will root for him and hope he turns out to be awesome. If he doesn't, time to move forward...

[Reed83HOF]

16 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

Anybody we draft I believe is going to be a project. Jackson is capable of doing everything you just listed. I think you're assuming he's never going to feel comfortable in throwing in the pocket. P.S. this wasn't supposed to be a post about what we think McBeane is going to do. I'll leave you all to speculate that. I just think he is the best QB in this draft and is worth our consideration at 12 or 22. While I do think we need to draft a couple offensive lineman and probably a running back, don't act like our running game sucks. Losing Glenn and Wood hurts, but we have the capital to fill the holes. Which is also why we absolutely should not trade up to draft a quarterback. If we're going to throw someone in there with a bad offensive line like you say we have, I'd rather have someone mobile who can avoid hits.

 

Hey man, you stated your case well. I can take it. I probably did over-value our O-line, we have had one of the best rushing attacks the past 2-3 years, but losing Glenn and Wood hurts a lot. Which is why I, and the article you posted about Wilson, states you're better off having a running qb in these scenarios. In the process of his development there might be some bumps in the road, but I truly believe he will get better and better as a passer as he's shown through his college career.

You are right about the OL, it worked for Tyrod - I think he had the most time in the league to pass...I think that they want to move a bit away from the sandlot football and go "more traditional"; the drafting of Peterman makes it appear that way, hell even starting him over Tyrod I think points that way. The wild card/unknown in this is, can our new offensive staff develop a QB - they are all from the college ranks as well.

 

I ragged on the running game a little bit, because once a D stopped our running game, the game was over. Also without Tyrod back there as QB, I'm not sure how teams will play us when we rush, we did lose a running threat in the QB. I think we may take a step back there. Let's face it the entire offense is in transition this year....

 

No clue what is going to happen with QB, Darnold & Rosen are the top 2 passers and Mayfield isn't too far away from them. Only Mayfield & Rosen could start right away, Darnold needs time. Allen is interesting, he is either going top 5 or sliding, but he looks to be a good guy with a high ceiling who will get a chance, his release is really fast and that arm is amazing. He also needs some time. After those guys, personally I don't like the rest of the QBs - Rudolph maybe but it's meh at that point and I would probably look at Jackson over him. If it goes that far, it feels like yet another failure to grab a QB becuase we weren't bad enough to draft in a high enough position....

 

I'm pretty direct when I talk/write so I can easily come off like an !@#$ - it is almost never meant that way

[Lfod]

11 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm just trying to read what little tea leaves there are to try to understand what Beane looks for in a QB. I think that during his time in CAR he saw how dynamic Newton is, but I think he also saw the issues that are there as well. I figure our best chance for figuring out who we might take is to what fits his profile.

 

There is nothing that says Jackson can't be a good NFL QB and he is a helluva athlete. There is a chance we could even end up with him depending where there draft falls and what players are rated where on our board. You obviously want to feel good about how a prospect can develop and that has to factor into as well. I don't see him as a fit from his style of play, but that doesn't mean wee would ignore him or he won't be on our board. If we take him, I will root for him and hope he turns out to be awesome. If he doesn't, time to move forward...

I was just reading through a lot of what you posted about the Mobile QB. It makes a lot of sense. Tyrod at first was leading a top scoring offense. As the years went on it seemed like those running lanes for him closed up and to resolve it they tried to mold him into a pocket passer and it just wasn't happening. Basically it confirmed what you posted was true because we all lived through it.

 

I don't know about Lamar Jackson. I don't follow college ball. I'm not sure if the mobile QB is a fair label for him or not. A person smarter then me would have to dig into his passing stats and sum it up. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

8 hours ago, MJS said:

Not very accurate. Holds onto the ball too long.

 

No thank you. Just had a few years of that with Tyrod.

Also he looks unnatural in the pocket his mechanics are like a high school QB. Doesn't take chances against safeties in the seem.  He's an area code thrower makes his Wrs work very hard . Doesn't lead wrs open consistently . He's not Tyrod but he has alot of the same problems throwing the ball.  Forget about Yac again for another 3yrs with this guy.

[502Buffs]

14 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

You are right about the OL, it worked for Tyrod - I think he had the most time in the league to pass...I think that they want to move a bit away from the sandlot football and go "more traditional"; the drafting of Peterman makes it appear that way, hell even starting him over Tyrod I think points that way. The wild card/unknown in this is, can our new offensive staff develop a QB - they are all from the college ranks as well.

 

I ragged on the running game a little bit, because once a D stopped our running game, the game was over. Also without Tyrod back there as QB, I'm not sure how teams will play us when we rush, we did lose a running threat in the QB. I think we may take a step back there. Let's face it the entire offense is in transition this year....

 

No clue what is going to happen with QB, Darnold & Rosen are the top 2 passers and Mayfield isn't too far away from them. Only Mayfield & Rosen could start right away, Darnold needs time. Allen is interesting, he is either going top 5 or sliding, but he looks to be a good guy with a high ceiling who will get a chance, his release is really fast and that arm is amazing. He also needs some time. After those guys, personally I don't like the rest of the QBs - Rudolph maybe but it's meh at that point and I would probably look at Jackson over him. If it goes that far, it feels like yet another failure to grab a QB becuase we weren't bad enough to draft in a high enough position....

 

I'm pretty direct when I talk/write so I can easily come off like an !@#$ - it is almost never meant that way

I can't just buy that Darnold or Rosen are a better passer than Jackson. Darnold turned the ball over way more than Jackson and Rosen also proved to be just as inconsistent and, while still mobile, is obviously much less mobile than Jackson, who has freakish ball carrier vision. Allen I haven't seen play enough to be honest, but I find it hard to believe he is worththe project. Plenty of big arm QBs have come through the draft and done nothing. He couldn't even really win in whatever conference at Wyoming. I did however watch a lot of PAC-12 football just because I wanted to see these guys play and dear God are those defenses bad. I could definitely get excited about Mayfield and would even get excited about the other guys if they slid, but I truly believe now is not a time to gamble it all on trading up for a QB. The Jets set the price too high. Let them make that gamble their roster still looks worse than ours anyway. Hell I'd even be ok with Rudolph. I just can't be convinced any of these QBs are that far apart from each other, but I think Jackson makes the most sense for our team (ran the same Eackhardt-Perkins offense Daboll ran at Bama) and has the most potential to be special.  Again, I'm a Louisville fan, I'm biased, but I wouldn't want us to take him if I didn't think it would work.

10 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I was just reading through a lot of what you posted about the Mobile QB. It makes a lot of sense. Tyrod at first was leading a top scoring offense. As the years went on it seemed like those running lanes for him closed up and to resolve it they tried to mold him into a pocket passer and it just wasn't happening. Basically it confirmed what you posted was true because we all lived through it.

 

I don't know about Lamar Jackson. I don't follow college ball. I'm not sure if the mobile QB is a fair label for him or not. A person smarter then me would have to dig into his passing stats and sum it up. 

I tried to if you read the original post, with video to back it upnot to say I'm smarter than you

Edited March 27, 2018 by 502Buffs

[Lfod]

2 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

 

I tried to if you read the original post, with video to back it up

Haha you got me. I'll go take a look and check the video out. 

[502Buffs]

6 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Also he looks unnatural in the pocket his mechanics are like a high school QB. Doesn't take chances against safeties in the seem.  He's an area code thrower makes his Wrs work very hard . Doesn't lead wrs open consistently . He's not Tyrod but he has alot of the same problems throwing the ball.  Forget about Yac again for another 3yrs with this guy.

Have you watched any of his highlights? He's definitely not afraid to take chances. He just can also choose to take chances with his feet as well and is 100x better at it than Tyrod. I've said it before and I'll say it again, comparing Tyrod to Lamar is lazy, their games don't match up at all. You're free to disagree all I'm saying is check the tape.

[Lfod]

Ok I checked out the highlights and read your post. I'll start first by saying I liked his interview. The yes ma'am part part shows me I don't have to worry about Baker Mayfield style crotch grabs when it comes to respect. 

 

Did I see him smiling after that fight? Bills fans complained that no one did squat after Tre White was hit by Gronk. I wonder if Lamar Jackson would run out.....

 

I like that he has height. That was a knock on Tyrod not seeing the field because he was to short. Not sure if that was the problem but it definitely won't be an excuse with Lamar. The most dropped passes? Tyrod didn't have that problem as much because he didn't throw the ball. 

 

On a serious note, yes Lamar is going to have to live with the Tyrod/Mobile QB comparison. It may not be fair but it's going to happen. Lamar is going to have doubters but it's so much sweeter proving doubters wrong then having everyone ride your jock. It adds more fuel to your fire.

 

I really can't say much. Any rookie we draft I will probably feel the same about because I don't follow college ball. I'll just keep the hope unless they play so bad for so many games it gets annoying and I want to run and hold the door open for them on thier way out.

 

 

 

 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

1 hour ago, 502Buffs said:

Have you watched any of his highlights? He's definitely not afraid to take chances. He just can also choose to take chances with his feet as well and is 100x better at it than Tyrod. I've said it before and I'll say it again, comparing Tyrod to Lamar is lazy, their games don't match up at all. You're free to disagree all I'm saying is check the tape.

Its not lazy i see him

#1 hold the ball to long way to much

#2 doesn't lead wrs consistently which leads to less yac opportunity for wrs. 

#3 He's a Area Code Passer Makes Wrs work to hard because bad ball placement.

 

These are all major issues in Tyrod and Lamar gms. 

 

Ask yourself this question strictly as a passer is Lamar worth the 12th overall pk?   

[Mat68]

39 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Its not lazy i see him

#1 hold the ball to long way to much

#2 doesn't lead wrs consistently which leads to less yac opportunity for wrs. 

#3 He's a Area Code Passer Makes Wrs work to hard because bad ball placement.

 

These are all major issues in Tyrod and Lamar gms. 

 

Ask yourself this question strictly as a passer is Lamar worth the 12th overall pk?   

If this was all true why does Jackson have about the same ypa as Rosen?  The guy with the best ball placement in the draft?  As a passer he is just as accomplished as Rosen.  When he runs hes more accomplished than Saquan Barkley.  I fail to see that as a negetive.  When you get a guy who can beat you in the pocket and the open feild there is no defense for it.  

[NastyNateSoldiers]

4 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

If this was all true why does Jackson have about the same ypa as Rosen?  The guy with the best ball placement in the draft?  As a passer he is just as accomplished as Rosen.  When he runs hes more accomplished than Saquan Barkley.  I fail to see that as a negetive.  When you get a guy who can beat you in the pocket and the open feild there is no defense for it.  

U can nitpick the stats all u like he still has major deficiencies as a passer. This is just my opinion and your definitely entitled to yours . 

 

Lamar will need a Taylor ( no pun intended) made offense to succeed on the next level. U can't just put this guy into a timing based offense and expect him to succeed.  I guess it comes down to preference.  I would like a strict pocket passer that sometimes can make a play outside the offensive play design.

 

Other then Darnold i would love Mayfield he's very accurate and can make plays on the run from both sides of the field not only that but something people don't talk about much here is he gets better when pressured either via blitz or just from the natural rush. These are key elements to succeeding on the next level. Baker is the man and i hope he slips threw the cracks and we can draft him in the 6-10 range. 

[Mat68]

11 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

U can nitpick the stats all u like he still has major deficiencies as a passer. This is just my opinion and your definitely entitled to yours . 

 

Lamar will need a Taylor ( no pun intended) made offense to succeed on the next level. U can't just put this guy into a timing based offense and expect him to succeed.  I guess it comes down to preference.  I would like a strict pocket passer that sometimes can make a play outside the offensive play design.

 

Other then Darnold i would love Mayfield he's very accurate and can make plays on the run from both sides of the field not only that but something people don't talk about much here is he gets better when pressured either via blitz or just from the natural rush. These are key elements to succeeding on the next level. Baker is the man and i hope he slips threw the cracks and we can draft him in the 6-10 range. 

Petrinos offense is a pro concept passing attack.  Jackson is far more accurate that his 59% would tell you. His adjusted completion % makes the most improvement than any other qb in draft.   Imo Baker will struggle inside an NFL pocket.  When the play breaks down he wont get away from NFL defenders.  Also, Jackson does not have a video of him getting tackled by cop.  

[NastyNateSoldiers]

1 hour ago, Mat68 said:

Petrinos offense is a pro concept passing attack.  Jackson is far more accurate that his 59% would tell you. His adjusted completion % makes the most improvement than any other qb in draft.   Imo Baker will struggle inside an NFL pocket.  When the play breaks down he wont get away from NFL defenders.  Also, Jackson does not have a video of him getting tackled by cop.  

Petrino system is similar to what the Bills will run but there's different variations of the Perkins Erhardt system.  Lamar is just not accurate enough for the NFL. I don't care what his adjusted comp percentage is.  He's not a natural passer . 

 

Btw Baker is incredibly accurate in and out of the pocket and I'm not basing it on stats. He passes the eye test. The ball comes out clean from his hands . Yes he's not tall but his release pt makes up for that as well as ability to throw threw lanes just like Brees and Russ.

[Solomon Grundy]

8 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Petrino system is similar to what the Bills will run but there's different variations of the Perkins Erhardt system.  Lamar is just not accurate enough for the NFL. I don't care what his adjusted comp percentage is.  He's not a natural passer . 

 

Btw Baker is incredibly accurate in and out of the pocket and I'm not basing it on stats. He passes the eye test. The ball comes out clean from his hands . Yes he's not tall but his release pt makes up for that as well as ability to throw threw lanes just like Brees and Russ.

Eye test? Were you wearing your Blu Blockers when watching Jackson videos?

[502Buffs]

16 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Its not lazy i see him

#1 hold the ball to long way to much

#2 doesn't lead wrs consistently which leads to less yac opportunity for wrs. 

#3 He's a Area Code Passer Makes Wrs work to hard because bad ball placement.

 

These are all major issues in Tyrod and Lamar gms. 

 

Ask yourself this question strictly as a passer is Lamar worth the 12th overall pk?   

Strictly as a passer no. If he can't run he's definitely not even a 1st rd pick, but he can. Also I disagree with the area code passer thing, that just makes no sense. Check out his passes on Youtube, a lot of his touchdown passes are in the perfect spot right on the money. Part of a WR getting open is that you have to throw them open.

[John from Riverside]

On 3/26/2018 at 7:55 PM, BadLandsMeanie said:

 Thanks 502!

Look at the way Lamar looks like he is gonna take off....then stops before he leaves the pocket and throws a strike

 

This is where he and TT differentiate.......Taylor takes off in those situations

19 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Petrino system is similar to what the Bills will run but there's different variations of the Perkins Erhardt system.  Lamar is just not accurate enough for the NFL. I don't care what his adjusted comp percentage is.  He's not a natural passer . 

 

Btw Baker is incredibly accurate in and out of the pocket and I'm not basing it on stats. He passes the eye test. The ball comes out clean from his hands . Yes he's not tall but his release pt makes up for that as well as ability to throw threw lanes just like Brees and Russ.

This is seriously funny stuff

 

He is putting the ball right on guys and you wont come off it

[NastyNateSoldiers]

25 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Look at the way Lamar looks like he is gonna take off....then stops before he leaves the pocket and throws a strike

 

This is where he and TT differentiate.......Taylor takes off in those situations

This is seriously funny stuff

 

He is putting the ball right on guys and you wont come off it

I'm not just basing my opinion on a youtube highlights film. U ever seen Ej Manuel on youtube he looks pretty good.  I actually  watch full gms on draftbreakdown. 

 

At the end of the day its all about preference i just want the QB that's best at finding open wrs consistently. Sounds simple right?  In my opinion that's Mayfield.  Not the rocket arm Allen or the if i didn't have my legs i won't be a first rd pk Jackson.  

[Pete]

This not leading with crown of helmet rule will help Lamar's chances of staying healthy his career

[502Buffs]

4 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I'm not just basing my opinion on a youtube highlights film. U ever seen Ej Manuel on youtube he looks pretty good.  I actually  watch full gms on draftbreakdown. 

 

At the end of the day its all about preference i just want the QB that's best at finding open wrs consistently. Sounds simple right?  In my opinion that's Mayfield.  Not the rocket arm Allen or the if i didn't have my legs i won't be a first rd pk Jackson.  

You just killed your argument by comparing Lamar Jackson tape to EJ Manual's. Wish some of you guys could get over stereotyping QB's, or at least not be so obvious about it. First everyone compares him to Tyrod now EJ...it makes no sense they're all completely different players. You're doing nothing but showing you don't watch any football outside of Bills games by making these comparisons which is fine, but it doesn't mean you can look at a QB  and say it won't work based off of his appearance.