Great Breakdown on Rudolph and Jackson

[Scorp83]

For starters I understand some people on here listen to WGR, but I know some people don't get a chance to. So like I use to do on the BB Msg board, I would post some good but not long interviews. This one was good... & until McBeane decides they want to move up to 2 or the Giants decide they want to trade out of 2... it's time we get realistic on what our options really might be.

 

Enjoy! ?

 

 

03-20 Mark Schofield of Inside the Pylon with Howard and Jeremy - http://www.wgr550.com/media/podcast/howard-and-jeremy

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Scorp83

[26CornerBlitz]

Heard that earlier today. Always good to hear from Schofield regarding draft prospects. 

[habes1280]

I still have a hangover from the JP and EJ moves.  I'm all for doing what we have to do to get the guy we want, but if we miss, I don't want to reach on a prospect simply to have a new young quarterback on the roster.  If this year doesn't produce the opportunity to draft the QB we want or need, fill other positions, regroup, and go after one in next year's class, when we will likely be picking in the top 10.

 

I trust that McDermott and Beane will make the right call, though.  And that's a significant relief, given how I've felt going into drafts with previous front offices.

[Scorp83]

3 minutes ago, habes1280 said:

I still have a hangover from the JP and EJ moves.  I'm all for doing what we have to do to get the guy we want, but if we miss, I don't want to reach on a prospect simply to have a new young quarterback on the roster.  If this year doesn't produce the opportunity to draft the QB we want or need, fill other positions, regroup, and go after one in next year's class, when we will likely be picking in the top 10.

 

I trust that McDermott and Beane will make the right call, though.  And that's a significant relief, given how I've felt going into drafts with previous front offices.

If they don't move up... this is still a good class that you might find a Derek Carr or Russell Wilson. But we won't know unless we take a chance. All we've done is draft & fill other positions...it doesn't work. I don't care if we draft another Dareus, Gilmore, Darby, Kyle Williams, Sammy, Robert Woods, ect. We still will be middle of the pack like always until we draft a QB. We have to draft one & draft one often.

 

If we don't move up to the top 3, draft one at 12.

[habes1280]

I hear you.  I just don't like how drafting a lower ceiling quarterback one year tends to preclude teams from drafting a higher ceiling quarterback the next.  I'll never forget watching Aaron Rodgers slide down the draft board-- past where the Bills would have picked, if they hadn't traded the pick for JP the year before.

 

The thing about Derek Carr and Russell Wilson is that they were second and third round picks, respectively.  Teams don't hesitate to draft competition for players like that the following year.  QBs picked in the top-third of the 1st round are a different story.  Teams stick with those players until they've proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they can't handle the load, and aren't getting better.

[Ayjent]

I don't know about trusting Beane and McDermott - I think they got away with thinning out the talent on the team this year and since then have already traded a starting LT and QB, lost the starting C to retirement, lost their starting MLB to free agency, and are going to loose another starting CB and WR to free agency.  Oh and Zay may be craZay and looking at some missed time this season.  They have made some moves to get some players in to fill those positions but I don't think the guys they signed are better than the guys they lost, and they have a lot of picks (for now) in the first 3 rounds.  They've put themselves in a pickle with the QB position in my opinion - and if they can get a rookie or McCarron to give them the same output as Tyrod (low turnovers, decent completion percentage, and some ability to extend drives with scrambling) I think we will all be thrilled, but the chances of that with McCarron, Peterman or a Rookie is unlikely. 

 

I understand why they wanted to move on from Tyrod and his limitations, but I think it is going to bite them in the ass to not be sure that they had a better player at QB before letting him go.  They just made the playoffs, despite having a horrendous OC (who was rightfully fired) and Tyrod did what he could do with bad playcalling, a WR corps that was about as bad as the OC.  Tyrod was sometimes part of the problems on Offense, but he also did a lot of things right.  We will be pining for the days of Tyrod should we be stuck with McCarron and Peterman, and a struggling top prospect.  Don't be enamoured with the potential of a guy that can do one thing better than Tyrod if he is a disaster in other aspects (e.g., Peterman), or a guy that couldn't unseat Andy Dalton as a starter, or a QB prospect that looks completely lost against NFL defenses and shows he doesn't have enough accuracy or anticipation in the  NFL (e.g., Allen, Rudolph, Jackson), or has some pocket presence issues (e.g., Rosen, Darnold).  Mayfield would be my pick at QB, but I think 12 is about where his value is - I don't think the Bills should move up any more, and the teams that would be fielding offers know the Bills are in a bit of a predicament with their QBs and that raises the ante.

[Chuck Wagon]

9 hours ago, Scorp83 said:

If they don't move up... this is still a good class that you might find a Derek Carr or Russell Wilson. But we won't know unless we take a chance. All we've done is draft & fill other positions...it doesn't work. I don't care if we draft another Dareus, Gilmore, Darby, Kyle Williams, Sammy, Robert Woods, ect. We still will be middle of the pack like always until we draft a QB. We have to draft one & draft one often.

 

If we don't move up to the top 3, draft one at 12.

 

 

Literally the worst thing that could possibly happen is drafting one at 12 to just draft one.

 

Frankly, if they are frozen out of the top tier of QBs yet again, I think they need to trade 12 for a 1st next year and a late 1st or early 2nd this year if at all possible.  You never know when you get stupid lucky like Cleveland and trade for a top 5 pick next year.

 

If Beane wasn't ready to pull the trigger for 3, that's already on him, but just taking one at 12 just to take one is throwing good money after bad.  Not getting an elite prospect after supposedly loading up to get an elite prospect is already a massive failure they'll have to wear if the Giants won't trade the pick.  But under that scenario, the best plan of attack is roll whatever we can into next year then try to build the best team around McCarron while using a ~4th round pick on a QB to fight with Peterman.

[Scorp83]

1 hour ago, Ayjent said:

 

I understand why they wanted to move on from Tyrod and his limitations, but I think it is going to bite them in the ass to not be sure that they had a better player at QB before letting him go.  They just made the playoffs, despite having a horrendous OC (who was rightfully fired) and Tyrod did what he could do with bad playcalling, a WR corps that was about as bad as the OC.  Tyrod was sometimes part of the problems on Offense, but he also did a lot of things right

Well said ??

 

This is why I said in another thread... I don't completely trust Derm & Beane. They haven't done anything for us to trust their decision making. Then I had a poster say..."well that's who's in charge now, we have to trust them, there's nobody else"

 

Just because their in charge doesn't mean we have to trust they're making the best decisions... like you said Ayjent to move on from Tyrod without having a QB already in place isn't a good move you make. They got rid of alot of talent & haven't replace it either. 

 

But they have to draft a QB! It's a must... even if they want to get to the top 3. Well get one of your guy's cause I know they like more then just 1 QB. So if Jackson or Rudolph is your 3rd best option... draft him a 12 before The Cards or Saints do it. They made this plan last year when they decided NOT to draft Mahomes or Watson, so now they have to complete it

1 hour ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Literally the worst thing that could possibly happen is drafting one at 12 to just draft one.

 

Frankly, if they are frozen out of the top tier of QBs yet again, I think they need to trade 12 for a 1st next year and a late 1st or early 2nd this year if at all possible.  You never know when you get stupid lucky like Cleveland and trade for a top 5 pick next year.

 

If Beane wasn't ready to pull the trigger for 3, that's already on him, but just taking one at 12 just to take one is throwing good money after bad.  Not getting an elite prospect after supposedly loading up to get an elite prospect is already a massive failure they'll have to wear if the Giants won't trade the pick.  But under that scenario, the best plan of attack is roll whatever we can into next year then try to build the best team around McCarron while using a ~4th round pick on a QB to fight with Peterman.

I'm not saying draft one just to do it... see my other post ☝️?

[Ayjent]

2 hours ago, Scorp83 said:

 

This is why I said in another thread... I don't completely trust Derm & Beane. They haven't done anything for us to trust their decision making. Then I had a poster say..."well that's who's in charge now, we have to trust them, there's nobody else"

 

Just because their in charge doesn't mean we have to trust they're making the best decisions... like you said Ayjent to move on from Tyrod without having a QB already in place isn't a good move you make. They got rid of alot of talent & haven't replace it either. 

 

But they have to draft a QB! It's a must... even if they want to get to the top 3. Well get one of your guy's cause I know they like more then just 1 QB. So if Jackson or Rudolph is your 3rd best option... draft him a 12 before The Cards or Saints do it. They made this plan last year when they decided NOT to draft Mahomes or Watson, so now they have to complete it

They are drafting a QB, but I'd rather them back off at 12 if Rosen, Mayfield and Darnold are gone, and only Allen and Jackson available.  Maybe even trade out to someone more desperate, although I think the Bills hold that crown right now.  Putting all of the eggs into Lamar Jackson or Allen would be just a small bit better than thinking EJ was the guy.  I do like Jackson more than Allen, but I think they are both 2nd rounders at best and both are longshots to be long term great QBs.

[Scorp83]

57 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

They are drafting a QB, but I'd rather them back off at 12 if Rosen, Mayfield and Darnold are gone, and only Allen and Jackson available.  Maybe even trade out to someone more desperate, although I think the Bills hold that crown right now.  Putting all of the eggs into Lamar Jackson or Allen would be just a small bit better than thinking EJ was the guy.  I do like Jackson more than Allen, but I think they are both 2nd rounders at best and both are longshots to be long term great QBs.

I hear you, but I feel differently on Jackson. I feel like he's every bit of Watson if not better. People thought Watson was Tyrod... literally ESPN compared him to Tyrod. Yet he isn't...Watson is more then that...& as a prospect coming out of College, Jackson is better then Watson in every category 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Scorp83
Typo

[Ayjent]

5 hours ago, Scorp83 said:

I hear you, but I feel differently on Jackson. I feel like he's every bit of Watson if not better. People thought Watson was Tyrod... literally ESPN compared him to Tyrod. Yet he isn't...Watson is more then that...& as a prospect coming out of College, Jackson is better then Watson in every category 

I like Jackson too, but if this staff seems to be more enamoured with traditional passers as I think they are, then chances are Lamar Jackson isn’t going to be the choice for them.  The fact that they trotted our Peterman and benched Tyrod tells me all I need to know about this staff’s ability to assess competent QB play, especially when the biggest issues were up front on the OL preceding the change.  So your OL is struggling and the defense turns into a sieve, let’s put in a 5th round draft pick that doesn’t handle pressure in the pocket well against a good pass rushing team - great solution. 

 

Watson was surprisingly good before being injured, but let’s see him over the course of a couple years before we say he is a superstar.  I do like what Jackson has to offer and he is probably my 2nd choice after Mayfield.   I’m not sold on Darnold and Rosen, because every time I watched them they just didn’t look like guys that would be consistent enough in the NFL, but I can’t say I watched them as much as the QBs in the ACC, SEC, BIG12 and BIG10

[OldTimer1960]

11 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Literally the worst thing that could possibly happen is drafting one at 12 to just draft one.

 

Frankly, if they are frozen out of the top tier of QBs yet again, I think they need to trade 12 for a 1st next year and a late 1st or early 2nd this year if at all possible.  You never know when you get stupid lucky like Cleveland and trade for a top 5 pick next year.

 

If Beane wasn't ready to pull the trigger for 3, that's already on him, but just taking one at 12 just to take one is throwing good money after bad.  Not getting an elite prospect after supposedly loading up to get an elite prospect is already a massive failure they'll have to wear if the Giants won't trade the pick.  But under that scenario, the best plan of attack is roll whatever we can into next year then try to build the best team around McCarron while using a ~4th round pick on a QB to fight with Peterman.

Every year is very different.  This year has more good prospects than most.  It could easily be that next year’s draft doesn’t have a QB who is as good a prospect as any of the top 5/6 this year.  That doesn’t mean that even half of this year’s prospects pan out, but next year is no guarantee to have even a good QB prospect.

[Boatdrinks]

10 hours ago, Ayjent said:

They are drafting a QB, but I'd rather them back off at 12 if Rosen, Mayfield and Darnold are gone, and only Allen and Jackson available.  Maybe even trade out to someone more desperate, although I think the Bills hold that crown right now.  Putting all of the eggs into Lamar Jackson or Allen would be just a small bit better than thinking EJ was the guy.  I do like Jackson more than Allen, but I think they are both 2nd rounders at best and both are longshots to be long term great QBs.

Using one draft pick at 12 would qualify as " all the eggs"?  Now I've heard everything. Part of the reason the Bills haven't had a consistent QB in a long time is NOT taking enough chances at the position in the draft. If they get shut out of the " big 3" they absolutely should use 12 on a QB. Why not? The potential payoff is greater than any other position. If the team sucks this year and they end up with a higher draft slot in 2019 then take a QB there too. 

[Scorp83]

4 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Every year is very different.  This year has more good prospects than most.  It could easily be that next year’s draft doesn’t have a QB who is as good a prospect as any of the top 5/6 this year.  That doesn’t mean that even half of this year’s prospects pan out, but next year is no guarantee to have even a good QB prospect.

Great point!

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

Using one draft pick at 12 would qualify as " all the eggs"?  Now I've heard everything. Part of the reason the Bills haven't had a consistent QB in a long time is NOT taking enough chances at the position in the draft. If they get shut out of the " big 3" they absolutely should use 12 on a QB. Why not? The potential payoff is greater than any other position. If the team sucks this year and they end up with a higher draft slot in 2019 then take a QB there too. 

It's amazing how some people don't understand this logic. You have to take chances... & the Bills have taken the fewest QB's in the draft the last 30 years if I'm not mistaken. It's only been Jimbo, Collins, JP, Trent, & EJ... that's not good. Then you have the fliers like Troy Brown, Peterman & company ? 

 

This organization haven't taken enough chances at QB & for any fan to try & justify not taking one in a year where you have literally 8 good prospects at the position tells me who's not paying attention to what this team really needs. 

[Ayjent]

14 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Using one draft pick at 12 would qualify as " all the eggs"?  Now I've heard everything. Part of the reason the Bills haven't had a consistent QB in a long time is NOT taking enough chances at the position in the draft. If they get shut out of the " big 3" they absolutely should use 12 on a QB. Why not? The potential payoff is greater than any other position. If the team sucks this year and they end up with a higher draft slot in 2019 then take a QB there too. 

The presumptuousness of people sometimes drives me crazy.  If you don't understand what people are saying, maybe ask a question about what they mean rather than assume you know and that the person posting has a poorly formed opinion.  You will get no argument from me about the value of QB play, but if you draft a guy that is a long shot or has a lot of issues with his game, do you really want to wait for him to develop over the course of a couple of years while your team struggles with inconsistent QB play?  Or would you feel more comfortable waiting to see if you can get him with your 22nd pick and not have as much draft capital and expectations invested in him?  If the top 3 QBs are gone by 12 I just think that there are a lot of good options available outside QB if you don't get a chance at Rosen, Darnold or Mayfield, and maybe you can move back down a little bit  or wait until No. 22 and still get the guy you want.

 

Counting on Jackson or Allen as a consistent starter with McCarron and Peterman as backups isn't a good plan for success, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't draft a QB at all.  I think they have no other choice now that they jettisoned Tyrod and that  their best chance at finding a quality starter is in the draft.  I'm really just saying that I don't want them to count on Jackson or Allen like they did with EJ to be a franchise guy.  I also don't think that either guy merits a No. 12 pick, because of the deficiencies in their game.  We can differ on that opinion, but the point is I don't want the Bills holding on to some illusion that they shouldn't draft a better prospect if one becomes available next year or the year after just because of what round and position they draft a guy this year.  Especially, if next year presents better prospects.  IMO they made the same mistake this year with Tyrod that they made with Fitz, putting themselves in a must draft QB predicament without a top 5 pick. 

 

The Bills put all of their eggs into the EJ basket and then doubled down with Watkins rather than staying put and giving themselves a chance to get both a QB and a WR in that draft, which I thought they should have.  I was a big proponent of them drafting another QB in the Watkins draft - those two drafts were horrendous and it was clear at the time that they were.