nbbillsfan Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Just now, YattaOkasan said: So you didn't watch the video then. Its been stated there and elsewhere that the Jackson has the most relevant experience to NFL offenses. He has been asked to read defenses and has demonstrated an ability to work his way through progressions (check out the cover1 article). He needs to work on his deep ball accuracy but checks most every other box. I did watch the video, that does not mean I agree with their assessment. Also, scouting is not really about what you were asked to do, but how well you could do. Just because you could argue Jackson was in an offense with the most relevant NFL components does not mean that Rosen/Darnold/Allen would not have been able to handle those components better than Jackson if asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 minute ago, nbbillsfan said: I did watch the video, that does not mean I agree with their assessment. Also, scouting is not really about what you were asked to do, but how well you could do. Just because you could argue Jackson was in an offense with the most relevant NFL components does not mean that Rosen/Darnold/Allen would not have been able to handle those components better than Jackson if asked. What you are saying is highly opinionated 26 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said: That's bold. I don't see 1983 here. Im not saying HOF's That is the thing that keeps getting in the way.....lofty expectations.....there are very few HOF qbs..... If a player is a solid starter then they are not a bust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbbillsfan Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: What you are saying is highly opinionated Duh? So was that video...so is nearly all evaluation of prospects. Edited March 9, 2018 by nbbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said: This is exhausting. Mayfield is immature and short. He is not ready to lead franchise, in my opinion. If you throw him out there and typical rookie struggles happen, how will he react? Is he going to start grabbing his junk when his passes are constantly getting batted down and opposing teams are in his **** on every play? Respect is earned in the NFL, not given. I do not trust his mental makeup. Allen and Jackson both need to hone their craft. This has been gone over this ad-nauseam, I'm not going to waste my time. Just throwing rookie QBs in the deep end, hoping they can swim, often times, isn't smart. I agree with that last statement. As to the first, you started out with "based on game tape", which to me is how a guy plays, not what his hand size or height is or psychoanalyzing his mental makeup. I can't argue with perception (Mayfield is immature, Rosen is entitled and conceited etc.). I consider the guy's actual personality and mental toughness/dedication to be things that have to come out during team (not media) interviews and facility visits, and from talking to coaches and teammates, that fans really can't tell with any accuracy unless they meet the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 22 hours ago, Thurmanator 12074 said: But he is a good passer you just don’t like his throwing style. You can’t say he’s not a good passer satistics do not back you up. His rather low completion percentage is speaking to you. Don't ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I agree with that last statement. As to the first, you started out with "based on game tape", which to me is how a guy plays, not what his hand size or height is or psychoanalyzing his mental makeup. I can't argue with perception (Mayfield is immature, Rosen is entitled and conceited etc.). I consider the guy's actual personality and mental toughness/dedication to be things that have to come out during team (not media) interviews and facility visits, and from talking to coaches and teammates, that fans really can't tell with any accuracy unless they meet the guy. That's the other side of the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4BillsintheBurgh Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Excellent, so everyone agrees, we'll just take qb's at 21 and 22 and let them fight to be the backup to taylor. That way most folks will have someone to complain about and someone to cheer for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 22 hours ago, Thurmanator 12074 said: The results that are all that matters. I didn't watch Jackson play at all in college so don't know if he's the guy or not. BUT, I do know that the quote above is used as justification every year for certain players, and is it not a good one. Warnings about Tebow and Maziel were routinely shot down with similar "scoreboard" logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, KD in CA said: I didn't watch Jackson play at all in college so don't know if he's the guy or not. BUT, I do know that the quote above is used as justification every year for certain players, and is it not a good one. Warnings about Tebow and Maziel were routinely shot down with similar "scoreboard" logic. Tyrod as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco_92 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 The accuracy "issue" is not debunked by playing with numbers, even if the "completion percentage issue" is. Watching him shows that his placement and accuracy in general are subpar, and there is no historical context which should make anyone confident that he becomes good at that stuff, or that he can be a good NFL QB without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Polish, you know that has to be BS. When a guy has 430 passing attempts and 232 rushing attempts, he's making more plays with his arm than his feet, OK? If he's being considered against other draftee QB who have thrown 452, 404, and 270 attempts, it has to be acknowledged that he's shown enough passing to be evaluated as a QB. He has made as many passes as his peer draftees. Why is this so difficult? I think that's what has people scratching their heads. The "elusiveness" question is strictly tied to "in what way is he elusive?" Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers are still making those little side steps and shoulder ducks and stepping up to make guys miss in their 30s. And yes, sometimes that is the manner in which Jackson is elusive. If he's being elusive by taking off downfield, then you have a point. To my eye most of Jackson's rushes in 2017 were called run plays. The "average passing ability", you got to look at the other prospects too and also say what you mean by that. Is he up with Rosen and Mayfield? IMO, No. Has he demonstrated ability to be more accurate, to throw with anticipation into tight windows in a game than Allen or Rudolph? I would say "yes". Is his arm as strong as Allen? No way. So it depends upon what you mean. Maybe I wasn't clear. When I used the phrase "making a play" I was inferring "big plays". Should have said big plays. What I see in the video is an elusive running back - who makes average throws compared to other (potential NFL prospect) college level quarterbacks. Once in a while he makes a throw that makes him look special. But the number of incomplete simple throws and incomplete average throws is certainly too high compared to the number of big passing plays he makes. If you want a clearer picture - just focus for a minute on his "big plays". Too large of a percentage of those are plays where he took off and ran with the ball. That is what "wows" people about this guy. It isn't his arm. If you just look at the big plays he makes throwing the ball, there aren't enough of them. That is my knock against him. Much rather have a better passer than he is that very rarely leaves the pocket. Is that too much to ask for? A better passer than him? I would take Mason Rudolph all day every day over this guy. And I would rather have 3 other qbs in this draft higher than Rudolph. Rudolph is a much better pocket passer in my opinion, and it's not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 50 minutes ago, KD in CA said: I didn't watch Jackson play at all in college so don't know if he's the guy or not. BUT, I do know that the quote above is used as justification every year for certain players, and is it not a good one. Warnings about Tebow and Maziel were routinely shot down with similar "scoreboard" logic. And a ton of other qbs not named Tebow and Manziel....... They are hard to find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Elsewhere, I posted a link to the combine workouts of Rosen Mayfield Jackson Allen, and Rudolph. Suggest you watch them with the sound turned off, and roughly in that order (to train your eye to what the passes are supposed to be). Look carefully for WR having to drop low, hesitate in their route or jump. This is just lazy post right here. I don't give a garbage about what they do in combine workout. Its about film. go watch it some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 49 minutes ago, PolishDave said: Maybe I wasn't clear. When I used the phrase "making a play" I was inferring "big plays". Should have said big plays. What I see in the video is an elusive running back - who makes average throws compared to other (potential NFL prospect) college level quarterbacks. Once in a while he makes a throw that makes him look special. But the number of incomplete simple throws and incomplete average throws is certainly too high compared to the number of big passing plays he makes. If you want a clearer picture - just focus for a minute on his "big plays". Too large of a percentage of those are plays where he took off and ran with the ball. That is what "wows" people about this guy. It isn't his arm. If you just look at the big plays he makes throwing the ball, there aren't enough of them. That is my knock against him. Much rather have a better passer than he is that very rarely leaves the pocket. Is that too much to ask for? A better passer than him? I would take Mason Rudolph all day every day over this guy. And I would rather have 3 other qbs in this draft higher than Rudolph. Rudolph is a much better pocket passer in my opinion, and it's not even close. Jackson looks like a MUCH better NFL "style" passer than Rudolph. It's crazy how opinions are so widely different here on these QBs. From the videos I've seen, Rudolph's passes seem to be the same high, slow, floating passes over and over again. On video, he looks like a 3rd-5th round QB. Jackson looks like he can sling the ball from many different angles, heights and speeds. Then add in that he'll be the most athletically gifted QB since Vick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodman19 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 So three white guys are offended at the thought of perceived racism due to legitimate criticism (that all prospects get) of a players weaknesses... Never heard of this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, 1billsfan said: Jackson looks like a MUCH better NFL "style" passer than Rudolph. It's crazy how opinions are so widely different here on these QBs. From the videos I've seen, Rudolph's passes seem to be the same high, slow, floating passes over and over again. On video, he looks like a 3rd-5th round QB. Jackson looks like he can sling the ball from many different angles, heights and speeds. Then add in that he'll be the most athletically gifted QB since Vick. Nope. You are just wrong. Or blind. Or is it that you didn't like all those deep touchdown passes Rudolph threw? Edited March 9, 2018 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, PolishDave said: Maybe I wasn't clear. When I used the phrase "making a play" I was inferring "big plays". Should have said big plays. What I see in the video is an elusive running back - who makes average throws compared to other (potential NFL prospect) college level quarterbacks. Once in a while he makes a throw that makes him look special. But the number of incomplete simple throws and incomplete average throws is certainly too high compared to the number of big passing plays he makes. What video are you watching, if I may ask? I could not watch highlight video of Jackson. His running ability is so stunning, that it hid his passing ability from my sight, I literally could not force myself to watch his passing footwork and throwing motion and ball placement. I had to start out with video that was all his passing TDs and move on to video scouting him as a passer. But he does make significant plays with his arm - not all the impressive "long bombs" that the OSU and UO offenses are designed to produce - is that what you mean by "big plays"? Because if so, it has to be recognized that for NFL QB, the bread-and-butter play is over the middle for 10-20 yds with some YAC. The QB often doesn't have the protection to let deep plays develop, and the DBs can often keep up with the WR. So long bombs in college make great "big play" highlight films, but don't necessarily translate to the NFL that well. Jackson can make plays with his arm in the sense of moving the chains and getting the TD. 3 hours ago, 1billsfan said: From the videos I've seen, Rudolph's passes seem to be the same high, slow, floating passes over and over again. On video, he looks like a 3rd-5th round Q Now I haven't seen that on video at all. Rudolph throws a very pretty ball, indeed. He has nice footwork. He often doesn't set his feet when he throws the short stuff. Edited March 10, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 On 3/8/2018 at 3:52 PM, whatdrought said: That very well might be the case, but since you mentioned Cam, doesn't he kind of debunk the idea that Jackson gets no credit because he's black? People still say cam is overrated and not that good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 This video seems like a comedic parody of someone making the racial bias argument, not a serious argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 13 hours ago, Agent 91 said: People still say cam is overrated and not that good People will always say things. The NFL said he was good enough for a first overall pick and an MVP award. I think Cam get's flamed because it seems (and this is my opinion) that his whole team goes the way that his attitude is going and he hasn't figured out (except for that time in '15) how to harness his competitiveness and make the team fall in behind him. On 3/9/2018 at 8:28 AM, PaattMaann said: what????? Mike Vick in the hall of fame? For what????? What did he do during his career that would put him anywhere near even a nomination to the hall of fame? His stats certainly don't support it...he barely has more career passing yards than QBs who are in the hall of fame that played in the 1940s!!!!!!! He played in the era of the passing offense, and put up some pretty average stats. Hall of fame!!???? I mean, I don't know if he will be or not, but saying he wont because of his passing stats is just ignorant. MV revolutionized the QB position and did (at a high level) what nobody else had been able to truly do (Cunningham was close to his level). Also, I think you ? key is stuck. You might want to get that checked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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