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matter2003

Refs miss obvious illegal formation penalty on Foles TD catch

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1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Correct

 

Had he been too far back in the ref's opinion, he'd simply have moved up

 

A penalty was never in play

 

Just because Jefferies said he got approval doesn't mean he did.  The line of scrimmage is clearly the 5 yard line.  He's at the 7.  That's an illegal formation.  Hell, they called our tackle on that 2 times in the same game....Henderson.  The tackle was called, and he was in formation,  cost us big time in a game.  Two huge first downs.  Might have been preseason.  

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1 minute ago, TC in St. Louis said:

Just because Jefferies said he got approval doesn't mean he did.  The line of scrimmage is clearly the 5 yard line.  He's at the 7.  That's an illegal formation.  Hell, they called our tackle on that 2 times in the same game....Henderson.  The tackle was called, and he was in formation,  cost us big time in a game.  Two huge first downs.  Might have been preseason.  

 

If he said he did and he didn't get flagged, I think the safe assumption is he did and got the OK. 

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3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Jeffrey had to be on the LOS as they only had 6 players lined up on the ball instead of 7...play should have been flsgged for illegal formation...

 

Guess it was Pats turn to get screwed last night by the stripes Hahahahaha.

DVO-sSSUQAAUz4m.jpeg

 

 

I believe he checked with the ref and was considered ok - not illegal in that case.

 

I don’t think there was any issue here.

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, here's the youtube clip.  Look at it with the sound off.  Especially the view at 0:31.

 

I think what people see is being influenced by the announcers.

 

What I see is that Clement has the ball caught between his R hand, his L arm, and his body.  He never bobbles it, ball never wobbles or starts to "pop up".  Both feet down.  Now, from the front, it looks like he has control, and he shifts it to his L arm so it will "survive the ground", steps OOB, and goes to the ground cradling the ball between his L hand and body.  It is allowed to manipulate the ball after you catch it!  You can cover it up, shift it from one arm to another, so forth.  Especially, the guy is an RB, that's what they're coached to do, shift the ball from one arm to another if it will better protect it from being knocked out by a defender as they go to the ground.

 

Collinsworth, looking at it from the side where you can't tell what is going on with Clement's hands, starts talking about how he starts to "lose control" then steps out before he recovers.  That's BS, Clement never loses control, he shifts the ball from his R hand to his L so as he goes down, he contacts first with his R arm and protects the ball with his L hand, arm, and body. 

 

I will admit, I thought it would be overturned, but that wasn't because I thought it should be overturned, it's because I've thought there have been outrageous overturns all season.

 

Agreed - I see the ball move, but it does not leave his possession.  There is no true bobble or a period where the ball is out of contact.  I thought it would be ok because you don’t see that look like he is fighting to keep control.

 

The Benjamin non TD to me was because he first gets the ball in his hands, but in bringing it to his body there is a clear period of time the ball is not controlled and therefore required him to regain control which is the sticking point for the TD.

 

Clement maintained control to me so they ruled it correctly as a TD.

 

I thought the refs did a pretty good job all game getting those calls right.

Edited by Rochesterfan
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1 hour ago, BUFFALOBART said:

It was not.The camera angle creates the impression. It is a matter of camera perspective in the strictest definition.

 

Blasphemy:  Off with your head!

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36 minutes ago, TC in St. Louis said:

 

Just because Jefferies said he got approval doesn't mean he did.  The line of scrimmage is clearly the 5 yard line.  He's at the 7.  That's an illegal formation.  Hell, they called our tackle on that 2 times in the same game....Henderson.  The tackle was called, and he was in formation,  cost us big time in a game.  Two huge first downs.  Might have been preseason.  

 

The point is that WRs check if they're good nearly every play, and the linesmen will almost always give them a thumbs up or down.

 

Some guys are going to call it closer than others.

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1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The point is that WRs check if they're good nearly every play, and the linesmen will almost always give them a thumbs up or down.

 

Some guys are going to call it closer than others.

 

I'm not doubting you, Bandit, but I gotta ask then - if WR have the option to check if they're good, and they do so almost every play,  how is this penalty "a thing"?

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54 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Aren’t you the one that repetitively declared that you are now rooting for the Patriots* because you want to “celebrate their greatness”. You are a typical fair weather Pats* fan.  

 

HAHAH!

 

I hate the Pats and obviously you knew I was just greasing my cheeks for the pain of watching the Pats possibly win another title!

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49 minutes ago, TC in St. Louis said:

 

Just because Jefferies said he got approval doesn't mean he did.  The line of scrimmage is clearly the 5 yard line.  He's at the 7.  That's an illegal formation.  Hell, they called our tackle on that 2 times in the same game....Henderson.  The tackle was called, and he was in formation,  cost us big time in a game.  Two huge first downs.  Might have been preseason.  

 

Here's the clip in Youtube.  At about 0:21 you can see Jeffries raise an arm and point at the ref momentarily - this would be him checking - and the ref would thumb up or thumb down.  If he thumbed down, Jeffries would presumably move up.

 

If the zebra gave him the thumbs-up it would surely be ticky-tack to then call it.

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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not doubting you, Bandit, but I gotta ask then - if WR have the option to check if they're good, and they do so almost every play,  how is this penalty "a thing"?

 

Usually it's because they neglect to ask, as was the case with Seantrel.

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36 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

The Benjamin non TD to me was because he first gets the ball in his hands, but in bringing it to his body there is a clear period of time the ball is not controlled and therefore required him to regain control which is the sticking point for the TD.

 

How can one bring the football to his body if one does not already have control of it? "Bringing it to his body" is Riveron's asinine explanation that has never, and will never again, be relevant to a catch. Receivers catch the ball with their hands all the time without then bringing the ball to their body. Benjamin is the only receiver to have ever been held to a standard of "securing it to his body" in addition to catching it. His back foot was also still dragging when he brought the ball to his body, so that explanation doesn't even make any sense. It was a Patriots call, plain and simple. 

 

Speaking of Patriots calls, how embarrassing is it that their fanbase is riled up about an illegal formation call that wasn't even illegal? THAT'S the worst call they can choose to complain about. The Patriots had two touchdown drives made possible by ridiculous holding calls, and the play before Foles' TD reception was blatant pass interference against the Patriots that was just ignored. That's a potential 18-point swing (and 14-point actual swing) in favor of the Patriots due to referee bias. 

 

Illegal formation? GTFO. 

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22 minutes ago, KW95 said:

Blasphemy:  Off with your head!

 

Um, he's saying that it wasn't a backwards pass, i.e. it was an illegal forward pass.  And it was.

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Just now, Doc said:

 

Um, he's saying that it wasn't a backwards pass, i.e. it was an illegal forward pass.  And it was.

 

oh!  TO be honest, I haven't seen any video proof of that pass going forward.  Anywho, sorry for misunderstanding!

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8 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Usually it's because they neglect to ask, as was the case with Seantrel.

 

Ultimately it’s a few humans regulating the actions of a whole lot of humans. It won’t always be perfect or perfectly consistent - but hopefully it’s fair. In this case it was incredibly fair. 

 

As a fan, if you are seeking a PERFECT to the letter of the book game — you’ll never see it. And I don’t think you’d enjoy it all that much if you did.

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3 hours ago, Commonsense said:

If the bobbled catch and the illegal formation make it a harder on the Pats and their fans I'm all for it. Make this thing as painful as possible. Keep reviewing those tapes I'm sure they missed

a holding or two!

No waay !

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, here's the youtube clip.  Look at it with the sound off.  Especially the view at 0:31.

 

I think what people see is being influenced by the announcers.

 

What I see is that Clement has the ball caught between his R hand, his L arm, and his body.  He never bobbles it, ball never wobbles or starts to "pop up".  Both feet down.  Now, from the front, it looks like he has control, and he shifts it to his L arm so it will "survive the ground", steps OOB, and goes to the ground cradling the ball between his L hand and body.  It is allowed to manipulate the ball after you catch it!  You can cover it up, shift it from one arm to another, so forth.  Especially, the guy is an RB, that's what they're coached to do, shift the ball from one arm to another if it will better protect it from being knocked out by a defender as they go to the ground.

 

Collinsworth, looking at it from the side where you can't tell what is going on with Clement's hands, starts talking about how he starts to "lose control" then steps out before he recovers.  That's BS, Clement never loses control, he shifts the ball from his R hand to his L so as he goes down, he contacts first with his R arm and protects the ball with his L hand, arm, and body. 

 

I will admit, I thought it would be overturned, but that wasn't because I thought it should be overturned, it's because I've thought there have been outrageous overturns all season.

Chris talked it up. It was awkward but i did feel confident he had it.
Some of these folks viewing slo mo,  they want Recs to put a ribbon on it. or something. I had to see it more than once to in replay. but at the time of the call. catch

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14 minutes ago, RememberTheRockpile said:

Looks like a yard and a half off. So what is the rule?

 

large.5a790e644c006_SixorSeven.png.9bf629fb5ec23219c6ed16c4b5be1992.png

 

Camera angle is tilted a bit, but the rule is that Jeffery's helmet needs to be breaking the hip line of the center.

 

It's pretty close 

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4 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

The game was definitely not rigged in the pats favor last night. 

Refreshing!  Or maybe just the way it is suppose to be

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3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, here's the youtube clip.  Look at it with the sound off.  Especially the view at 0:31.

 

I think what people see is being influenced by the announcers.

 

What I see is that Clement has the ball caught between his R hand, his L arm, and his body.  He never bobbles it, ball never wobbles or starts to "pop up".  Both feet down.  Now, from the front, it looks like he has control, and he shifts it to his L arm so it will "survive the ground", steps OOB, and goes to the ground cradling the ball between his L hand and body.  It is allowed to manipulate the ball after you catch it!  You can cover it up, shift it from one arm to another, so forth.  Especially, the guy is an RB, that's what they're coached to do, shift the ball from one arm to another if it will better protect it from being knocked out by a defender as they go to the ground.

 

Collinsworth, looking at it from the side where you can't tell what is going on with Clement's hands, starts talking about how he starts to "lose control" then steps out before he recovers.  That's BS, Clement never loses control, he shifts the ball from his R hand to his L so as he goes down, he contacts first with his R arm and protects the ball with his L hand, arm, and body. 

 

I will admit, I thought it would be overturned, but that wasn't because I thought it should be overturned, it's because I've thought there have been outrageous overturns all season.

look at 41 sec mark. dark line where left toe drags before it hits white. This was after he put it in left arm secure and right foot was down then left foot down.

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4 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said:

 

I care.

 

We should all care about the incompetent NFL officials.

I care, but its great if/when it happens to a team that ALWAYS gets away with flagrant stuff. 

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42 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

How can one bring the football to his body if one does not already have control of it? "Bringing it to his body" is Riveron's asinine explanation that has never, and will never again, be relevant to a catch. Receivers catch the ball with their hands all the time without then bringing the ball to their body. Benjamin is the only receiver to have ever been held to a standard of "securing it to his body" in addition to catching it. His back foot was also still dragging when he brought the ball to his body, so that explanation doesn't even make any sense. It was a Patriots call, plain and simple. 

 

Speaking of Patriots calls, how embarrassing is it that their fanbase is riled up about an illegal formation call that wasn't even illegal? THAT'S the worst call they can choose to complain about. The Patriots had two touchdown drives made possible by ridiculous holding calls, and the play before Foles' TD reception was blatant pass interference against the Patriots that was just ignored. That's a potential 18-point swing (and 14-point actual swing) in favor of the Patriots due to referee bias. 

 

Illegal formation? GTFO. 

 

That is bull.

 

If you watch the Benjamin play - he does not catch it cleanly in his hands and bring it to his body.  The ball hits his hands (no control) and bounces toward his body.  It is not until he secures it to his body with his left arm that he gains control.  If he cleanly catches it with his hands it is a TD, but he does not.  

 

Looking at his toe at that point it is questionable whether it touches the ground or not once the ball is secured.  The issue is deciding the exact moment of control.  If you give him control the absolute very second it gets to his body the toe is maybe touching - if you extend that even a fraction of a second - it is not.

 

I think they got the call right - it sucks, but it was a close play and if Benjamin just catches the ball it is easy, but he does not catch it cleanly.

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2 hours ago, Dan said:

Exactly how it looks to me.  

 

What's the rule exactly?  He's at most a half yard behind the RT.  The entire line is a full yard or so off the ball, so does he have to be within a yard of the ball, or a the tackle at the end of the line?   I honestly don't know, but this alignment doesn't seem any more egregious than you see every Sunday in the league.   It's the very definition of much ado about nothing.

Right.  The way that teams line up they could force every teams tackles to move up, they dont.  The Wr split farthest is at mercy of the line judge and as long that they are close to the tackle they are fine.  Foles motion and he is a wing and not even with the Wr further shows he is not too far off the line.  There is a grey area  but Its like traveling in the NBA its not called unless its egregious IE covering an eligable reciever.    

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The missed helmet to helmet hit on Cooks was a bigger play than this crap.

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1 minute ago, horned dogs said:

The missed helmet to helmet hit on Cooks was a bigger play than this crap.

Its not college there is no rule of helment to helment on a runner.  Cooks made a move lost track of where he was and cut back right into Jenkins.  Clean hit.  College it could have beem seen as targeting, but at some point an offensive player is responsible for avoiding would be tacklers.

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