Daboll's preferred offense and QB.

[keepthefaith]

18 minutes ago, BeefCurtns said:

One thing for sure Tyrod is as good as gone. He's too stupid for this offense.

I don't think that's a fair comment at all.  Being able to read defenses quickly and react is not his strong suit but that's not necessarily an intelligence thing.  Some minds just do things like that better regardless of the underlying smarts.

 

Example:  Some people who are highly intelligent and drive a car all the time have a very hard time judging the difference between a quarter mile, half mile or 2 miles.  They're intelligent but struggle at things like spacial relationships. 

 

By no means am I saying that TT should stay. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by keepthefaith

[billsredneck1]

On 1/15/2018 at 2:18 PM, dneveu said:

 

I think it's really just in conceptualizing the offense,  and naming plays.  

 

You said it better.  I think it lends to a better no huddle attack once everyone is on the same page - but that might just be brady being good.  

sounds like it's similar to what kelly ran. have a dozen formations/plays  that you are good at and have the ability to pick which variation to use based on the situation.

[26TrapDraw]

12 minutes ago, keepthefaith said:

I don't think that's a fair comment at all.  Being able to read defenses quickly and react is not his strong suit but that's not necessarily an intelligence thing.  Some minds just do things like that better regardless of the underlying smarts.

 

Example:  Some people who are highly intelligent and drive a car all the time have a very hard time judging the difference between a quarter mile, half mile or 2 miles.  They're intelligent but struggle at things like spacial relationships. 

 

By no means am I saying that TT should stay. 

I didn't mean to come off dooshy there but the point of the comment rings true. His inability to read a defense is why he would fail miserably in a cerebral offense such as this one. I also am incredibly bitter of that putrid performance against the jags in a very winnable game so there's that

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by BeefCurtns

[billsredneck1]

On 1/15/2018 at 4:56 PM, 145B4IDIE said:

I'm being serious, sounds like Peterman's scouting report

give him a good oline and he can be every bit as effective as alex smith....minus giving up picks and cap, while still having a rookie in the fold. i think peterman is plenty cerebral and accurate to get us 10 wins next year. he may not have been drafted as high as wentz or geoff, but he can have similar success. still waiting for castillo to be gone...

Edited January 17, 2018 by billsredneck1

[Punching Bag]

On 1/15/2018 at 4:56 PM, 145B4IDIE said:

I'm being serious, sounds like Peterman's scouting report

If you include opposing team members as part of receiving group.

[Punching Bag]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:29 AM, ddaryl said:

I prefer fresh threads over 20 page long reads myself...

 

I think we will grab a vet whom is a crap shoot right now until the tags are dolled outr.. We also will draft a QB.. Depending on which FA we pick up it oculd be a move up and grab a top QB sit where we are and grap one with out picks in the 1st or wait and pick up a day 2 or 3 guy who would comepte with Peterman to be the a possible successor.

 

I don't think anyone wants to keep their eggs in the Peterman basket alone..

 

There are some backet cases who want to keep their scrambled eggs in the Peteredman basket alone but many of them were advocating tanking this year.

On 1/16/2018 at 12:25 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

It does discourage me when I click on a nice juicy link and run into a paywall.  Alas I refuse to pay for the privilege of reading Gleason and Sullivan's stuff, whatever good stuff they may have besides.

 

I look at the paywall as being a vaccine against the internet's equivalent to CTE but some not are using their brain for anything but keeping their ears warm so I understand why the Suck Its for Sullivan think he is worth it.

[Punching Bag]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Again, this spreads the responsibility - instead of the QB needing to change how he calls the play so he gives the receiver all the info he needs to run his route, the QB calls the same play and the QB knows this week the cut is different.   It puts more responsibility on the receiver, because he has to have learned the weekly change, too.  

 

The more I learn about what Belichick does, the more I marvel at his ability to train his players to be active thinkers on the field.   They all have to understand what's going on in this play or that play, they all are expected to understand how the play may be run differently at different times in the game.   All the complexity he sees gets down-loaded to players - the players only learn the principles that govern their play and the play of the guys around them, the QB has to learn it all.  Belichick has remarkable success getting his players to think along with him.  

 

This is why some players go there and are very successful and others are not.  They look for certain type of players rather than the "I run down the field and QB overthrows me so I run under it" players.

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

One thing I think about this change is that it's another indication that McD isn't planning on Tyrod being the guy.  If he wanted to keep Tryrod around, he wouldn't be changing systems.   He'd want to keep Tyrod in the same system for a second season.   With a new system being installed, Tyrod has no advantage over anyone else competing for the job.  

 

There was no advantage for any QB in that system - it was too inconsistent.  But I think the blocking philosophy had as much to do with offense woes as OC play calls.

[thunderingsquid]

I've always been a big Perkins fan.

 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, thunderingsquid said:

I've always been a big Perkins fan.

 

Tiger Woods agrees

[hondo in seattle]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:19 AM, TigerJ said:

What I get from the article on Erhardt-Perkins is that it doesn't dictate reliance on either the running game or the passing game dominance.  In essence, it provides a framework for organizing and communicating plays, which are mostly the same plays in the other two systems (Coryell and West Coast).  As a framework, Grantland maintains it has an advantage in that is simplifies understanding and communication, and is thus easier for QBs to master.  So depending on the personnel Daboll is working with, he could in theory have a run heavy offense or a pass happy offense, or anything in between.

 

Exactly.  Lots of dissimilar offenses run the E-P.  It's not the same everywhere in every game.  But it is good news that Daboll learned from the modern day E-P masters up in NE.  

 

And, btw, has Daboll said he's running the E-P?  It's probably a good guess but I haven't heard him speak yet.  

[26CornerBlitz]

After a wild ride and the end of the drought, the Bills’ offseason began with an offensive coordinator change. Out is Rick Dennison and in is Western New York native Brian Daboll, back with the power running concept and a reputation of adjusting well and maximizing the talents of his players, and not forcing then into a poor scheme fit. Today, I’m starting the “Should he stay or should he go” series with QB Tyrod Taylor.

Tyrod finished his third season as the Bills’ starting QB with maybe his worst year in that role. But even in a down year he threw for, playoffs included, 2933 yards and 14 TDs to only 5 INTs (two coming from drops by his receivers), completed 61.3% of his passes, and finished with a solid 85.5 QB rating. His Pro Football Focus 79.7 passer rating was rock solid. He also added 446 yards and 4 TDs on the ground, with a very good 86.5 PFF rushing grade. His 83.0 PFF overall grade was good for the 14th-best QB in the league, in front of guys like Goff, Winston, Cousins, and Newton.

The problem with Taylor is well documented; it’s not about the plays he makes, but the ones he refuses to attempt. He was sacked 47 times this season, always risk averse and ultra conservative. Media members and fans are more than ever ready to turn this page and go all in into a new QB plan, but after the hire of Daboll as the team’s new OC, I think Tyrod’s odds to come back for his 4th year with the Bills just got higher.

[BringBackFlutie]

On 1/17/2018 at 4:05 AM, LeGOATski said:

Lol, no. This isn't a unique system. I'm pretty sure Gailey's was very similar.

 

Exactly.  This is not new.

 

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2015/1/14/7545199/everything-you-need-to-know-about-chan-gaileys-offense

 

"What Gailey does instead is to change the formation and personnel, but running the same core concepts from each, to give you fifteen different looks of what is, at its most basic function, the same play. For further reading, I suggest you take a look at BuffaloRumblings."

 

And

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2012/6/21/3105714/buffalo-bills-offense-chan-gailey-spread

 

"Gailey's offense is complex only in the sense that it uses a variety of different personnel groupings, formations and motions to execute the same play calls."

 

Gailey's offense was also often compared to the Pats' offense in that it ran a lot of stacked sets of WRs and rub routes.   His offense was better, in some ways, though.  His running and screen game was unmatched.  Nothing could stop his offense if he had a Ryan Fitzpatrick that could throw past 15 yards.  I always believed that's why we had so much trouble scoring points after the first half of the season- Fitz's arm was dead.  I don't think it had much to do with the offense being "figured out."

[transplantbillsfan]

Gotta say, both of these were really interesting reads.

 

It actually sounds like a system that has a ton of options yet, at the same time, really organizes itself and simplifies itself for all the offensive players, particularly QB. Sounds promising for some potentially quick success for a young rookie QB.

 

McDermott hired him quickly... I assume there are reasons  

[Augie]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Gotta say, both of these were really interesting reads.

 

It actually sounds like a system that has a ton of options yet, at the same time, really organizes itself and simplifies itself for all the offensive players, particularly QB. Sounds promising for some potentially quick success for a young rookie QB.

 

McDermott hired him quickly... I assume there are reasons  

 

So....Super Bowl???    

[transplantbillsfan]

44 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

So....Super Bowl???    

 

Well... obviously. We just made the playoffs, isn't winning the Super Bowl the next natural step?  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/17/2018 at 8:31 PM, hondo in seattle said:

Exactly.  Lots of dissimilar offenses run the E-P.  It's not the same everywhere in every game.  But it is good news that Daboll learned from the modern day E-P masters up in NE.  

 

And, btw, has Daboll said he's running the E-P?  It's probably a good guess but I haven't heard him speak yet.  

 

He has not said a word, but it's the only offensive system he's worked in.  It would be bizarre indeed for a new OC to install a system he's never before used.

9 hours ago, BringBackFlutie said:

 

Exactly.  This is not new.

 

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2015/1/14/7545199/everything-you-need-to-know-about-chan-gaileys-offense

 

"What Gailey does instead is to change the formation and personnel, but running the same core concepts from each, to give you fifteen different looks of what is, at its most basic function, the same play. For further reading, I suggest you take a look at BuffaloRumblings."

 

And

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2012/6/21/3105714/buffalo-bills-offense-chan-gailey-spread

 

"Gailey's offense is complex only in the sense that it uses a variety of different personnel groupings, formations and motions to execute the same play calls."

 

Gailey's offense was also often compared to the Pats' offense in that it ran a lot of stacked sets of WRs and rub routes.   His offense was better, in some ways, though.  His running and screen game was unmatched.  Nothing could stop his offense if he had a Ryan Fitzpatrick that could throw past 15 yards.  I always believed that's why we had so much trouble scoring points after the first half of the season- Fitz's arm was dead.  I don't think it had much to do with the offense being "figured out."

 

What used to drive me bug!@#$ about Gailey was his play selection.  He would move away from that unmatched running and screen game, and call plays that could utilize Aaron Rodgers when he had Ryan Fitzpatrick instead.

[transplantbillsfan]

On 1/15/2018 at 10:44 AM, chris heff said:

I’m still confused,it’s a conceptual offense? Not to bring up a sore subject, but when EJ was the QB one of the criticisms was that he came from dumbed down offense at FSU. That offense really only had a handful of plays that were run out of multiple formations. Isn’t that what Perkins/Erhardt offense is?

 

Well, yes, this sounds essentially like a dumbed down offense that can be spiced up depending on players and QB.

 

EJ, unfortunately, was just a serious choke job of a QB and seemed to fold in the most epic manners.

On 1/15/2018 at 10:45 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The fundamental principle as I understand it is you can run the exact same passing routes and combinations of passing routes under any of these systems.  But in the WCO, it's all spelled out precisely for each skill player.  The same play executed on the left or the right has a different playcall.  In E-P,  combinations of routes are grouped together and described by a single word, and who does what is determined by where the players line up combined with the play call.  So it's easier to understand the similarities and to minimize the reads the QB has to memorize.

 

Right, which is the way I understood what I read, as well.

 

More QB friendly, Dabol just didn't have a QB who could actually pass the football competently until the 2nd half of the National Championship game.

[transplantbillsfan]

On 1/16/2018 at 4:28 AM, Mrbojanglezs said:

Getting rid of Dennison and hiring Daboll keeps it open ended at qb, we are no longer restricted at a type of QB to fit the west coast style

 

Yep. This system actually seems to be very adaptable to whatever QB is running the system. I guess that's the appeal.

[transplantbillsfan]

On 1/16/2018 at 7:39 AM, YoloinOhio said:

Daboll was able to adjust to Hurts out of necessity with the help of Locksley, but that’s not his system and not what he wants to do. Hurts never developed as a passer with that approach and it only works until you meet a good defense with on par athletes. 

 

Could Daboll get more out of TT than Denison did? Possibly, but they want more than what they got when they had Roman/ Lynn trying that. It’s time to rip the band aid off and move on. I highly doubt Daboll wants to work with TT, but, I’ve been wrong before and may be again.

 

I think Daboll is eager to work with whatever rookie QB we're inevitably going to draft in the 1st, but knows that for 2018, if necessary, Tyrod is a helluva lot better passer than the QB who just led Alabama up to the National Championship game.

 

 

 

PS: Tua for 2020!!!  

[transplantbillsfan]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:06 AM, Shaw66 said:

I just looked through the first page and a half of posts, and it seems most people except you are making more of this article than it is. 

 

As you say, the article is verbiage, nomenclature.    And as you say, regardless of nomenclature, most teams, including the Pats, run the same plays.   The interesting point to me was that this system tends to be more QB-centric, that is, it allows the QB to talk about plays in ways that help him think about what's happening.   Simply by using one word, he knows what all his receivers are doing on one half of the field.    It makes life easier for the QB, and it makes a life a little more complicated for the receivers, because they have to know which route to run depending on where he's lined up in the formation.   That is, it off loads some responsibility from the QB to other players.   Brady doesn't have to know which wideout is second from the outside and tell the wideout what to do.  All he has to know is whoever that wideout is, he's running a particular pattern.   And, playing for Belichick, if you're the wideout and you don't know your assignment, you're sitting.  

 

None of this says much about the offensive philosophy.   It doesn't say the offense will be run- or pass-oriented.   Remember, it's just about how the plays are communicated to the players, not about the nature of the plays.

 

It's also noteworthy that in one of the articles there was a suggestion that it was time for Daboll to leave Alabama because Saban wants to go to more of a spread-formation college-type offense.   In other words, more passing and less running.   So I wouldn't be quick to expect Daboll to be a pass-first guy.   I think McD is a run-first guy - he's a fundamental-football guy, and I don't think he called up Daboll and asked him how he'd like to run an offense that throws the ball 40 plays a game.   

 

One thing I think about this change is that it's another indication that McD isn't planning on Tyrod being the guy.  If he wanted to keep Tryrod around, he wouldn't be changing systems.   He'd want to keep Tyrod in the same system for a second season.   With a new system being installed, Tyrod has no advantage over anyone else competing for the job.  

 

I think we have to wait and see.  

 

Great overall post, but in reading both of these articles I'm seeing the likelihood of Tyrod being under center for one more year more likely rather than less likely.

 

You say yourself that this system "makes it easier for the QB."

 

I'm really not going to be surprised by anything this offseason, but I feel like those people talking Cousins or Smith as our QB in 2018 are talking very distant possibilities.

 

Smith is certainly much more possible than Cousins, who is just a pipe dream, IMO.

 

 

Regardless... draft a guy in the 1st!