reddogblitz Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said: “But he put together that roster, and it's a playoff team without a great quarterback. It made the playoffs. They have a good roster." He should look at his own team this year LOL 1 minute ago, Cruiserplayer said: I still don’t understand the Whaley hate. His two biggest downfalls weren’t Manuel and Watkins. They were the inability to coexist with St Doug and the unfortunate situation that tied him to The Ryans. I thought Doug did a fine job. He definitely left the Bill in better shape than when he found them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Watkins90 said: It wasn't so much Dareus's huge contract, but the fact that there was no out or money we could get back when he was being a !@#$ up, that was the problem. I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, Mango said: I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). I miss Mr. Big Stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfod Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mango said: I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). I don't think they make that trade if they can find common ground with Dareus. I don't think they traded him away without making an attempt to work with him. He could go on to be spectacular but that doesn't assure he would of done it here for these coaches or this team. It's not like Dareus didn't do anything to effect his situation. Edited January 12, 2018 by Lfod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 8 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: It takes a team and full staff of scouts an entire year to put together a draft board, and scouting reports, and player profiles, and do interviews, etc., etc. McDermott did NOT have time to do his own recon while working as DC for the Panthers. That is not what coaches do, especially assistants. While I agree that McD had a say in which specific players were drafted, just like all previous Bills HCs, he was definitely working off of Whaley's intelligence, information, and advisement. Each had equal hand in making that draft happen. It's also exactly why no matter who fell to us, McD was not going to draft a QB. He wanted his own GMs recon for a position that important. But White, Dawkins, and Milano were all standard Whaley guys. Yes, he gave Dareus a huge contract, that at the time we ALL wanted to happen. Had he let our #3 overall choice, the highest draft pick the Bills had in over a decade, walk for nothing after his rookie contract was up, that would have been even worse. Just like the HCs get some credit/blame for the draft, some if not most of the details of that contract are on Overdorff who personally oversaw contracts and the cap. I won't ever say Whaley is completely innocent there, but he had to get Dareus signed. Injuries are always hindsight, wrt Glenn, he still got the contract for our LT done, unlike most of the GMs before him. And I blame Castillo, who I say should be fired, for the way he has handled Groy and Miller while starting Ducasse. The talent is there. I don't know man. 2017 went completely away from what Whaley normally did in the draft. He almost always had the players he drafted (esp. high) in for pre draft visits. None of the players we drafted this year were in for a visit (except Peterman IIRC). In fact, The Bills have had their 1st round draft pick in for a visit from the time he first got here - every year from 2010 to 2016. The only year he didn't... 2017. Drafts as assistant GM (pre draft visits)- -CJ Spiller -Marcell Dareus -Stephon Gilmore -Tank Carder -EJ Manuel -Jonathan Meeks (this 2013 draft was probably him running the show but I'll list it under asst. GM because we don't know if he ran the show or not). Drafts as GM (pre draft visits)- -Sammy Watkins -Cyrus Kouandjio -Preston Brown -Ross Cockrell (thats the top 4 picks from the 2014 draft, all brought in for a pre draft visit) -John Miller -Karlos Williams -Cardale Jones -Kolby Listenbee -Shaw Lawson -Reggie Ragland -Adolphus Washington (I'm not sure if this is a complete list. It's just what I found with a quick search) You know now who did have many of our draft picks in for a visit? Carolina Panthers. -Tre White -Zay Jones -Dion Dawkins -Tanner Vallejo Also, he never drafted players from small schools (like Zay Jones or even Dawkins (Temple)), especially in the first few rounds. Whaley stuck to certain colleges and especially certain conferences. In his time as GM from 2014 to 2015, 9 of his 13 draft picks came form the ACC. Shaq Lawson (in 2016) made that 10. If you go back to 2013, only 3 of his 28 draft picks came form outside the power 5 conference - Duke Williams (4th), Randell Johnson (7th round), Dezmin Lewis (7th). Never a top 3 round pick from outside the power 5, again, until 2017 (Jones, Dawkins). This was comp,etely dfferent than any draft from the time Shakey was hired by Buffalo. I am sure McDermott used some information form him but when looking at everything it's hard to believe that Whaley played much of a role in this draft. Nobody knows for sure, but that's the impression I get when I add up all the pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 he's an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Never a top 3 round pick from outside the power 5, again, until 2017 (Jones, Dawkins). not to quote your huge post. but some points. 1. no GM looks good with coaching turnover. I remember a fellow names Brett Favre getting traded after a new regime. But he's a bust because he didn't win it with ATL lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said: I thought this was fascinating, not because it's about Tyrod (we have a zillion threads about that) but because it's rare for the GM/CEO of one team to be commenting about the personnel of another team. It also suggests that Tyrod might have a hard time finding a starting gig if the Bills cut ties. http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/09/fourth-candidate-confirmed-packers-gm-search/1018451001/ “Doug Whaley really did a job with the interview,” Murphy said. “I think it was not confirmed, but he was the fourth interview. I knew him a little bit, so I enjoyed having a chance to spend some time with him. I'm a Bills fan, so I follow the Bills a little more closely than some of the other teams. “But he put together that roster, and it's a playoff team without a great quarterback. It made the playoffs. They have a good roster." That is nice to hear but but we OVER ACHIEVED , We Are Sorely Lacking In Most Every Position. And Whaley did not build this roster, McD ran that draft and him and Beane purged most of his "Talent" Edited January 12, 2018 by Buffalo Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 12 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said: I think 99.99% of BILLS fans are. It's mostly been our cross to bear. I’ve met a few people here in the Sacramento area that are Bills fans who have no ties to Western New York. It was the Kelly led offense that attracted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Heitz said: Imagine if Beane said something like "I'm a big Vikings fan!" - TBD would melt down at the gall of a Bills GM liking anything other than the Bills! The word "big" wasn't used. And if Beane said, "I'm a Carolina fan," IMHO it would be a very minor story. 8 hours ago, reddogblitz said: He should look at his own team this year LOL I thought Doug did a fine job. He definitely left the Bill in better shape than when he found them. I strongly agree with you that Doug Marrone left this team better off than it was when he got here. Marrone opted out, which hurt a lot of people and left a bad taste, but the team was stronger. He led them to the same record, 9-7, that has gotten such overwhelmingly good reviews this year. But then they switched systems yet again. The Sammy tradeup - not the pick but the tradeup - and the inability to bring in a QB killed Whaley. Not fighting against the Ryan selection too. And also his ending up having problems getting along with both of the coaches hired on his watch. Edited January 12, 2018 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: That is nice to hear but but we OVER ACHIEVED , We Are Sorely Lacking In Most Every Position. And Whaley did not build this roster, McD ran that draft and him and Beane purged most of his "Talent" What's wrong with overachieving. Isn't that a good thing....don't you want your kids to overachieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Mango said: I think we we are going to look back at the history of the Dareus trade and see more Marshawn Lynch (ie never should have happened) than we will Haynesworth (Total dud). Agreed. The Dareus and Lynch trades were very alike. We didn't get enough back. And neither guy was playing anywhere near the top of his game for quite a while before the trade was made, which greatly lowered their values. Both had major problems off the field too. Both were trades that could have been avoided by the guys in question just playing well. Both played themselves off the roster, both forced the team to le them go for poor value. Both were let go partly because of contract situations. Quick note: Here are Marshawn's yearly YPA figures. Guess which came in the last two years in Buffalo: 2007: 4.0 2008: 4.1 2009: 3.8 2010: 3.6 2011: 4.2 2012: 5.0 2013: 4.2 2014: 4.7 2015: 3.8 2017: 4.3 Hard to figure at what point a team might have traded the guy for very little value, hunh? Interestingly, in 2009 and 2010, Freddy Jackson 4.5 and 4.2 YPC behind the Bills OL. Hmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 That CEO is pretty sharp. Has anyone NOT described the Bills as a playoff team without a great QB? He also noted Green Bay is a town with very low average winter temperatures. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, klos63 said: He could have correctly stated the Whaley built a championship level defense, a top 10 offense and a top 5 special teams. Just not all in the same season, with 2 coaches that he didn't hire. 14 hours ago, QCity said: Complete bulls*&t. 13 hours ago, klos63 said: #4 in points allowed, #4 in yardage, top 10 in sacks..... are you able to qualify your brilliant comment? #4 in points allowed, #4 in yardage and top ten in sacks ... so you're saying that Whaley built the 2014 defense that racked up those stats, right? He's right, that is indeed bull ****. That defense was overwhelmingly built during Nix's tenure as GM. Whaley became GM on May 16th, 2013. So the starters on that excellent defense brought in during Whaley's tenure were: Preston Brown Brought in under Nix: Brandon Spikes, Jerry Hughes, Dareus, Bradham, Stephon Gilmore, nickel CB Robey-Coleman, Aaron Williams, Da'Norris Searcy Brought in before Nix: Kyle Williams, Leodis McKelvin Whaley may well have had some influence on some of Nix's picks, but it's impossible to know if or how much or even if Nix was overruling him sometimes. Saying Whaley "built" that defense is indeed ridiculous. He also didn't even have, much less "build" a top ten offense. Offenses under Whaley's tenure were ranked: 2013: 19th 2014: 26th 2015: 13th 2016: 16th Edited January 12, 2018 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, 1ZAYDAY1 said: And why do the Bills have a league high in dead cap money? $18M, that sucks! That a franchise LT and WR money. It'll be over $27M once we get rid of Tyrod. Fortunately, 2019 and beyond looks much better from a cap perspective. We could afford to pay Kirk Cousins in dead cap money this year Edited January 12, 2018 by BuffaloHokie13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: #4 in points allowed, #4 in yardage and top ten in sacks ... so you're saying that Whaley built the 2014 defense that racked up those stats, right? He's right, that is indeed bull ****. That defense was overwhelmingly built during Nix's tenure as GM. Whaley became GM on May 16th, 2013. So the starters on that excellent defense brought in during Whaley's tenure were: Preston Brown Brought in under Nix: Brandon Spikes, Jerry Hughes, Dareus, Bradham, Stephon Gilmore, nickel CB Robey-Coleman, Aaron Williams, Da'Norris Searcy Brought in before Nix: Kyle Williams, Leodis McKelvin Whaley may well have had some influence on some of Nix's picks, but it's impossible to know if or how much or even if Nix was overruling him sometimes. Saying Whaley "built" that defense is indeed ridiculous. He also didn't even have, much less "build" a top ten offense. Offenses under Whaley's tenure were ranked: 2013: 19th 2014: 26th 2015: 13th 2016: 16th So how come those aren't Nix's offenses too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, klos63 said: So how come those aren't Nix's offenses too? OK, they're Nix's offenses too. Happy? Everything, offense, defense, etc. got more Whaleyized as the years passed under his stewardship. But things didn't get better. The reason I included all four is that you said he built a top ten offense and I simply wanted to show we didn't even have one at that time, much less one that Whaley built. Whaley wasn't awful, but his drafts weren't good, the Sammy tradeup was awful and he had major communication issues with both coaches. From what I saw, his pro personnel record was very fine. But he didn't build anything. This wasn't a team on the rise. I like your posts, Klos. I strongly disagree here but I enjoy reading your stuff. See you. Edited January 12, 2018 by Thurman#1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Whaley isn't a good GM. He ran a leaky ship strife with dysfunction. Some of the contracts they handed out are puzzling. Obsession with trading up in the draft hurt. Absolutely no urgency to resolve the awful QB situation. Publicly, as 'CEO' of the football department he came across as a boob. To me, the whole Levy/Brandon/Nix/Whaley lineage was basically one administration anyways. Just a series of passing the baton to buy another few years so the fans wont revolt. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helpmenow Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 6 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said: not to quote your huge post. but some points. 1. no GM looks good with coaching turnover. I remember a fellow names Brett Favre getting traded after a new regime. But he's a bust because he didn't win it with ATL lol Granville was an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 11 hours ago, NoSaint said: So we aren’t counting guys he signed or draft picks made while he was here as his? And to top it off we are pretending none of those spots would’ve otherwise been filled by anyone? It's very well-documented that McDermott ran things before Beane arrived. Let's stop playing games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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