KingRex Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term). I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD. Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him. Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate. If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one. Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman. I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft. However, ready to play as a #2 or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things. When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well. I call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana. Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed. RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year. Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs. I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than TT. However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT. Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton. However , think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 tyrod limited what Dennison could do quite a bit in the passing game. tt is too short... too many batted balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoandfourteen Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 hours ago, KingRex said: One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term). I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD. Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him. Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate. If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one. Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman. I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft. However, ready to play as a #2 or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things. When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well. I call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana. Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed. RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year. Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs. I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than TT. However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT. Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton. However , think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure. Ok, sure. Sounds good to me. Couldn't possibly care any less about the OC, whoever it is. He'll be an 8th-year veteran. I think that ship sailed a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 To the Pit of Misery? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'm not a football expert, but I trust that McDermott gets to the root cause(s) of why the offense was pitiful, and maybe Dennison is part of the problem. We're all still under the assumption that the same O-line talent exists that led the league in rushing back to back years... But I saw our O-line guys getting dominated off the snap all year long. I think we're going to continue to see major changes across the entire football team similar to the last off season. Although the Bills only scored 3-pts against Jax... the offense did move the ball pretty well at points in the game (and controlled the game clock for the first 3 qtrs). I think the coaching staff squeezed everything they could get out of the players that they had. So it wouldn't shock me if Dennsion stays if they determine that player talent was the limiting factor. Also let's be real the defense giving up only 10 pts is with many thanks to Bortles being absolute garbage... A good qb puts up at least double that under the same conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsoldier54 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, bmur66 said: To the Pit of Misery? Dilly Dilly! You had to know that was coming, lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 hours ago, KingRex said: One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term). I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD. Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him. Sure blame TT for not making the right choice in the Run/Pass Option play RD called, but the blame for failure here rather than falling solely on TT actually has to start with RD giving the RPO to a QB some folks say is clearly inadequate. If you hate TT and think he should be shown the door, then also sign right up to also get rid of RD for not calling for 3 straight run play from 1st and goal at the one. Add to this, RD participated in the stupid decision to start NP against the Chargers. This was a stupid move not because Taylor is great (he ain't) but because this was a stupid attempt at developing Peterman. I agree that he was one of (if not the) most ready to play QBs in the draft. However, ready to play as a #2 or disaster QB and ready to start are two different things. When your starter QB gets knocked out of the game it often seems to have the impact of the D laying back a little and the back-up does well. I call this the AVP effect a several times we saw Jimbo go down and AVP would come in and look like Joe Montana. Then the next week, the opponent would have a week to study film and install disguised coverages Jimbo would have shredded and AVP would be destroyed. RD and McD did NP and the Bills no favor by announcing early in the week NP would start, the opponent got to practice and lick there lips waiting for this NFFL concensus 5th round talent to start (even Tom Brady sat on the bench and learned the pro game until a freakish lung collapse injury removed Bledsoe in his second year. Not only was the dumb decision to throw NP to the wolves made, but it was done in a manner that maximized his chances to fail. I had (and still hope) he can become a good pro, but RD and McD panicked and may have butchered his self-confidence (that being said n the big picture a ton of praise and the rest of the team- including RD and TT for leading thi squad to the playoffs. I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than TT. However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT. Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton. However , think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure. 3 years with regression 1st year OC with a QB that is regressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 hours ago, KingRex said: One of the arguments I find odd is by folks who indict TT as being worthless as a QB and then seem to think this excuses Denison from blame for O suckitude (to use a technical term). I have even seen apologies for RD that claim TTs lack of ability handcuffed RD. Actually if one assesses TT as clearly being a bum, rather than this getting RD off the hook, it provides even another reason for canning him. (...) I for one hope they can find a better cheaper QB than TT. However, the truth is there a shortage of QBs in this league and I easily think of worse cases than trying to do better next year with a better trained and managed TT. Still I much prefer we bite the bullet and overpay Cousins or trade vets for Andy Dalton. However , think both RD and TT share the blame for many of our failings and given the cruddy job of developing NP I think RD is most accountable for O faiulure. Overall, after giving it probably too much thought, I agree with you. I'm persuaded Dennison is a clever guy, a guy who can pick apart opponents film and personnel and design solid plays that will work in the abstract against those coverages. I think the evidence points to, he's the kind of guy who doesn't spend enough time learning the limitations and strengths of his players in practice and taking them into account, or teaching them effectively. I think all agree that TT is not The Man for the Bills at QB. You can see his ceiling, and it's Alex Smith (effective, but not quite good enough), not Aaron Rodgers. He is what he is at this point, and the question is just do you move on right now, or keep him as a bridge and mentor? Some here (Shaw66 for example) have made a good point that when the assistant doesn't do what the boss wants, the right thing is for the boss to talk to him and request change. I think that would be a great idea for a newly-promoted OC or a guy who's been an OC for only a couple years. Dennison has been in the league 10 years. I think you say "he is what he is", also, at this point. 14 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: 3 years with regression 1st year OC with a QB that is regressing The point to be made is, just why is that QB "regressing"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Denison is not TTs first coordinator. Last year TT had a great running attack and looks like the weapons he had last year were not the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, 8-8 Forever? said: tyrod limited what Dennison could do quite a bit in the passing game. tt is too short... too many batted balls It's not because he's short per se. Russ Wilson is shorter. Drew Brees is alleged to be the same height. Aaron Rodgers is asserted to be 2" taller. Does 2" really make a difference against 6'5" DL? (laws of optics say, "not") What Taylor lacks that ability to sense pressure and shift around in the pocket to find throwing lanes and buy himself time. Rodgers has it. Brees has it in spades. Cousins seems to have it. Alex Smith does not have it. I'm told it's something that's difficult or impossible to teach - you either have it, or you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadonkadonk Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, artmalibu said: Denison is not TTs first coordinator. Last year TT had a great running attack and looks like the weapons he had last year were not the problem. Watkins was injured. At one point they were on their 7th and 8th WR. Dennison made TT and offense worse. All the complaints about TT not throwing over the middle or going through progressions were disproved. Dennison changed blocking scheme on number 1 rush offense in NFL. At the bye, players revolted and scheme had to be changed mid-season. They both must go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 No one in their right mind thinks Tyrod is, or ever will be, a transcendent talent. But the offense was pretty darn good - not great, but good - until Dennison showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Kevi Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Clevelamd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 The one thing constant between Tyrod every OC, is the number of plays left on the field that the QB simply isn't making. Get rid of both, the "top 10 offense" from 2016 was highly inflated with points against 9ers, Browns and garbage time in games we were losing by 2 scores late in the 4th, we would score to make the score look respectable but the game was out of reach all day because Tyrod couldn't execute until the game was over. It's been 3 years, 44 starts, the Tyrod era is over if you like it or not. He misses too many open receivers, he's 1 read or run and the rest of the league caught up. This is !@#$ing nonsense Peterman sucks too, bring in 3 new QBs and an OC. QB more important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Overall, after giving it probably too much thought, I agree with you. I'm persuaded Dennison is a clever guy, a guy who can pick apart opponents film and personnel and design solid plays that will work in the abstract against those coverages. I think the evidence points to, he's the kind of guy who doesn't spend enough time learning the limitations and strengths of his players in practice and taking them into account, or teaching them effectively. I think all agree that TT is not The Man for the Bills at QB. You can see his ceiling, and it's Alex Smith (effective, but not quite good enough), not Aaron Rodgers. He is what he is at this point, and the question is just do you move on right now, or keep him as a bridge and mentor? Some here (Shaw66 for example) have made a good point that when the assistant doesn't do what the boss wants, the right thing is for the boss to talk to him and request change. I think that would be a great idea for a newly-promoted OC or a guy who's been an OC for only a couple years. Dennison has been in the league 10 years. I think you say "he is what he is", also, at this point. The point to be made is, just why is that QB "regressing"? Because he hit his ceiling year one. that just really is the reality, once teams figured out who TT was there was not surprise to him anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillyG Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 hours ago, bmur66 said: To the Pit of Misery? Dilly dilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Because he hit his ceiling year one. that just really is the reality, once teams figured out who TT was there was not surprise to him anymore Maybe so, but Dennison also didn’t build an offence towards TTs skill set like Roman did. You can’t tell me that Dennison got everything possible out of Tyrod this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said: Watkins was injured. At one point they were on their 7th and 8th WR. Dennison made TT and offense worse. All the complaints about TT not throwing over the middle or going through progressions were disproved. Dennison changed blocking scheme on number 1 rush offense in NFL. At the bye, players revolted and scheme had to be changed mid-season. They both must go. Sammy played in 8 games last year... Woods played 13 last year and 12 this year to get 168 more yards Flash played in 15 games last year but had 531 more yards this year. Clay played in 15 games last year and 13 this year. Hogan this year had about the same production in 9 games as he did with TT in 16 games So saying TT didnt have receivers to throw to doesnt add up. Everyone who leaves becomes more productive. Lastly and most note worthy TT took a pay cut to stay with the Bills. If any other team thought he was the answer TT would have told the Bills to pound salt. Edited January 11, 2018 by artmalibu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Pit of Misery ... Dilly Dilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, MAJBobby said: 3 years with regression 1st year OC with a QB that is regressing I want them both gone. Same day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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