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The Frankish Reich

So Maybe the '15-'16 Defensive Collapse Wasn't All on Rex

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Let the rehabilitation of Rex Ryan's reputation begin. The standard wisdom: Rex took a Top 5 defense and single-handedly ruined it. McDermott came in and restored order.

A few of us liked to point out that it wasn't all on Rex. The defensive talent started to disappear. (Who's left from those Schwartz defenses we loved? Kyle and Preston Brown.) 

And now: the worst defenses we've ever seen in Buffalo.

Discuss.

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It was all on Rex , way too complicated , and switching from 4-3 to 3-4

 

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23 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Let the rehabilitation of Rex Ryan's reputation begin. The standard wisdom: Rex took a Top 5 defense and single-handedly ruined it. McDermott came in and restored order.

A few of us liked to point out that it wasn't all on Rex. The defensive talent started to disappear. (Who's left from those Schwartz defenses we loved? Kyle and Preston Brown.) 

And now: the worst defenses we've ever seen in Buffalo.

Discuss.

McBeane is doing a WORSE job then Rex. 

 

Gotta give em credit, that's tough to do. 

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Scheme changes are always hard.  Rex destroyed that defense with scheme.  Mcd and Frazier also brought in a new scheme.  Also, the personnel turnover has been massive.  We have an entirely new secondary including nickle and dime CBs.  literally not a single one has played together before.  Humber new at LB and Preston and Lorax playing in a new scheme at new positions.  Shaq barely played last year, and the interior DL with all its rotations features young or new players in a new scheme.  None of that is assigning blame, that is just reporting the news.  Rex took veterans and ruined them with scheme.  This defense has new players, coaches, and scheme all to deal with at once.  apples and oranges, even though the results are similar..both bad.  

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1 hour ago, ALF said:

It was all on Rex , way too complicated , and switching from 4-3 to 3-4

 

maybe it was complicated because he was trying to cover all the short comings.   

what he did at the time was head scratching , now not so much. 

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2 minutes ago, baskingridgebillsfan said:

maybe it was complicated because he was trying to cover all the short comings.   

what he did at the time was head scratching , now not so much. 

?

 

Really?

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1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Ahh, the simplicity of Simply Sucking under McD!

Well, to be fair McD and Beane shipped off it's most talented players. But, Rex was trying to fit square pegs into round holes. 

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1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Let the rehabilitation of Rex Ryan's reputation begin. The standard wisdom: Rex took a Top 5 defense and single-handedly ruined it. McDermott came in and restored order.

A few of us liked to point out that it wasn't all on Rex. The defensive talent started to disappear. (Who's left from those Schwartz defenses we loved? Kyle and Preston Brown.) 

And now: the worst defenses we've ever seen in Buffalo.

Discuss.

 

15 was on Rex. That team was uber talented and he wasted it. The defense lost none of their starters but his scheme was a disastrous fit.

 

16 though the defense was not all his fault as we see now. He lost some pretty solid starters/depth in Bradham, Brooks, McKelvin, & Charles plus Mario quitting. Add in that Kyle Williams started aging plus Lawson & Ragland both were injured for the season and that was a bad mix. BUT he also had a pretty big role in those personnel decisions and I firmly believe not keeping Bradham screwed this defense badly because they have no one at LB who can cover and tackle like he did.

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2 hours ago, ALF said:

It was all on Rex , way too complicated , and switching from 4-3 to 3-4

 

The players also lacked accountability and self control under Rex. Dumb penalties at the worst possible moments. 

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Saying that is such a slap to the great Gym Shorts.. Rex !@#$ed up so bad that it takes 2 years to undo his colossal !@#$ up - on the other Bills forum I made the comment that Rex set us back three years but in reality its closer to 4-5 years. Disaster 

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1 hour ago, corta765 said:

 

15 was on Rex. That team was uber talented and he wasted it. The defense lost none of their starters but his scheme was a disastrous fit.

 

16 though the defense was not all his fault as we see now. He lost some pretty solid starters/depth in Bradham, Brooks, McKelvin, & Charles plus Mario quitting. Add in that Kyle Williams started aging plus Lawson & Ragland both were injured for the season and that was a bad mix. BUT he also had a pretty big role in those personnel decisions and I firmly believe not keeping Bradham screwed this defense badly because they have no one at LB who can cover and tackle like he did.

He lost those guys because he wanted to lose them.  He thought Ragland was actually an NFL player, drafted Lawson because Clemson and even took the useless Washington.  Don't blame Whaley....it was obviously Rex.

 

It is a borderline miracle tha McD produced even one good game from Rex's scrap heap.  He needs time.  I'm not loving the trend but look at the talent.  Rex crashed us in2015 and burned us in 2016.  This is what happens in rebuilds.

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4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Let the rehabilitation of Rex Ryan's reputation begin. The standard wisdom: Rex took a Top 5 defense and single-handedly ruined it. McDermott came in and restored order.

A few of us liked to point out that it wasn't all on Rex. The defensive talent started to disappear. (Who's left from those Schwartz defenses we loved? Kyle and Preston Brown.) 

And now: the worst defenses we've ever seen in Buffalo.

Discuss.

 

He still had a lot of good players, this team, mostly of their own doing by getting rid of various people, has a lot of blah players...

Edited by matter2003

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4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Ahh, the simplicity of Simply Sucking under McD!

No, it's all on Rex for the last two years.  If I'm wrong debate me. 

 

You wanted it discussed with the nonsense guise of the argument that Ryan didn't mess us up.

 

Bring your a game and debate me

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1 hour ago, Boyst62 said:

No, it's all on Rex for the last two years.  If I'm wrong debate me. 

 

You wanted it discussed with the nonsense guise of the argument that Ryan didn't mess us up.

 

Bring your a game and debate me

More than happy to take that wager. (I'm limited to cell phone analysis now, but I'll shore up the evidence later). Starting point:

- yards against defense:

2015: 19th

2016: 19th

2017: 25th

i don't have the numbers on 2014. I think it was top 5. But this looks more like a downward trend line than a (semi) correctable Rex blip. McD added as well as subtracted. Dareus is gone, but he was "gone" a fair amount (about 50 % if memory serves) last year. Gilmore is gone, but White has outperformed him so far anyway. Hyde and Poyer are in; what, you'd prefer Ihedigbo or whoever Rex was stuck with last year? Losing Zach Brown hurt. But what new coach didn't lobby to keep him?  Jay Ayayi ran all over us last year. So did Kamara and several others this year. Kyle is back this year, but it hasn't helped. 

So my point- well, points:

1. Schwartz was kind of lucky in 2014 as well as good

2. We never realized the value of a motivated Mario. Sure, blame Rex for that if you want, but it's not as if Mario came storming back last year. And Marcell too - Rex also didn't give Marcell a huge blunt to suck on. 

3. Key guys are gone, and that started under Rex and was at least as much Whaley (or nobody's fault) as Rex. 2 players left from Schwartz's defense and they aren't exactly great players (Kyle and Preston Brown). Whaley didn't bring in great reinforcements. Quick: who's the best free agent signing on defense prior to 2015 or 2016?  Umm, wait ... I'm thinking ... hold on ... maybe Lorax?  And which coach used Lorax more effectively?  Why, it was Mr. Complexity himself, the defensive mastermind Rex and his defensive masterblubber brother!  McD seems to have no idea of how to use him. Kind of reminiscent of how Rex couldn't figure out how to use Jerry Hughes.

4. Rex couldn't handle Dareus. He sulked and malingererd and put in lackluster seasons. It was all about hating that 3-4, remember? So it was a joy to see how rejuvenated Dareus was under McD's Marcell-friendly scheme. Oh, wait a minute. Marcell sulked and malingerered and got his fat butt traded for a 6th rounder. Maybe it was about Marcell after and not about Rex's scheme. 

 

And don't get me started on the offense. Suffice to say Rex thought he could turn a short running QB 6th round backup into a league average starter. He did. McD thought he could turn a weak armed 5th rounder into something better, and he thought it was smart to do it while his team still sat in 6th position for the playoffs. Oops. 

 

OK, that's a start. I hated Rex. In retrospect, it (mostly) wasn't his fault. 

Edited by The Frankish Reich
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6 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Let the rehabilitation of Rex Ryan's reputation begin. The standard wisdom: Rex took a Top 5 defense and single-handedly ruined it. McDermott came in and restored order.

A few of us liked to point out that it wasn't all on Rex. The defensive talent started to disappear. (Who's left from those Schwartz defenses we loved? Kyle and Preston Brown.) 

And now: the worst defenses we've ever seen in Buffalo.

Discuss.

If Schwartz stayed, the D would have continued to rock.

Rex is absolutely responsible for screwing it all up with his brilliant schemes and his “ Big Book of Plays”. 

Water under the bridge at this point.

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21 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

More than happy to take that wager. (I'm limited to cell phone analysis now, but I'll shore up the evidence later). Starting point:

- yards against defense:

2015: 19th

2016: 19th

2017: 25th

i don't have the numbers on 2014. I think it was top 5. But this looks more like a downward trend line than a (semi) correctable Rex blip. McD added as well as subtracted. Dareus is gone, but he was "gone" a fair amount (about 50 % if memory serves) last year. Gilmore is gone, but White has outperformed him so far anyway. Hyde and Poyer are in; what, you'd prefer Ihedigbo or whoever Rex was stuck with last year? Losing Zach Brown hurt. But what new coach didn't lobby to keep him?  Jay Ayayi ran all over us last year. So did Kamara and several others this year. Kyle is back this year, but it hasn't helped. 

So my point- well, points:

1. Schwartz was kind of lucky in 2014 as well as good

2. We never realized the value of a motivated Mario. Sure, blame Rex for that if you want, but it's not as if Mario came storming back last year. And Marcell too - Rex also didn't give Marcell a huge blunt to suck on. 

3. Key guys are gone, and that started under Rex and was at least as much Whaley (or nobody's fault) as Rex. 2 players left from Schwartz's defense and they aren't exactly great players (Kyle and Preston Brown). Whaley didn't bring in great reinforcements. Quick: who's the best free agent signing on defense prior to 2015 or 2016?  Umm, wait ... I'm thinking ... hold on ... maybe Lorax?  And which coach used Lorax more effectively?  Why, it was Mr. Complexity himself, the defensive mastermind Rex and his defensive masterblubber brother!  McD seems to have no idea of how to use him. Kind of reminiscent of how Rex couldn't figure out how to use Jerry Hughes.

4. Rex couldn't handle Dareus. He sulked and malingererd and put in lackluster seasons. It was all about hating that 3-4, remember? So it was a joy to see how rejuvenated Dareus was under McD's Marcell-friendly scheme. Oh, wait a minute. Marcell sulked and malingerered and got his fat butt traded for a 6th rounder. Maybe it was about Marcell after and not about Rex's scheme. 

 

And don't get me started on the offense. Suffice to say Rex thought he could turn a short running QB 6th round backup into a league average starter. He did. McD thought he could turn a weak armed 5th rounder into something better, and he thought it was smart to do it while his team still sat in 6th position for the playoffs. Oops. 

 

OK, that's a start. I hated Rex. In retrospect, it (mostly) wasn't his fault. 

This is not a very good response to the argument.

 

That is because you started with stats. You spoke about losing key players without analysis.

 

I will touch on each point I get the opportunity to in a way that will allow you a rebuttal.

 

Dareus is a non factor in any argument. First I must say that personally I am glad he is gone and I think this is what he needed in his life to help get it together. But, relating to foootball I believe that he is a non factor in the argument of what was on the field this season because he didn't play enough. He needs tough love like marrone gave him and not what Rex has created of him. Schwartz was great with him because he gave him space and really worked with him whilst marrone was the disciplinarian.

 

Moving to the safeties we have to know that this year's safeties are better than last year's but the linebackers corpse are terrible. Literally, dead. Alexander was a never was, I don't care what the stats say. These linebackers are getting our safeties killed we have this defense designed for reading defenses and breaking the field in to sections vs Ryan's which set aside a lane for Gilmore/1cb whilst the rest was a hodgepodge of ****.  Ryan's belief that you could mask schemes and coverages put guys like Robey on #1 wR's and big tight ends. That's not a good coach.  Ryan took linebackers deep in coverage when they already suck at it vs MCD leaving them shallow and covering low stopping the run and failing because they can't shed blockers or anyone else for that matter. It's partially the DL being reassigned to a new scheme from the last two years.  But we now have good football players like Washington, worthy, Williams and Lawson not being used in a manner which benefits them. And we still see them equal to last year's performance by the eye test when the scheme fit them perfectly. The DL isn't to blame for the run defense. It is the linebackers that can't step to the hole and the safeties playing cover 2/4 and other schemes which back them off the ball to the outside as our CB's are actually pretty lousy. White isn't bad but he has been given a lot of slack and praise that he doesn't deserve. 

 

Whites failures are simply that he isn't able to concentrate on the game enough to see the plays develop - he is behaving like mckelvin and it shows. Phenom as an athlete. Lousy in developing in this level. Still. He is going to be a star. At this point, I'd take Gilmore over white. Hands down. And I didn't think Gilmore was all that amazing. Ryan just !@#$ed up his career here. 

 

The next part I'll reply with won't have stats or anything else but describe what each player does to detail from footwork and everything else and I'll explain why on defense Jerry Hughes has been our best defensive player for 3 years 

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7 hours ago, ALF said:

It was all on Rex , way too complicated , and switching from 4-3 to 3-4

 

Combined with the roster moves and aging players this year, yep. When you bring in a guy who wants to turn your top 5 defense from a 4-3 to a 3-4 for more than a year, allow him to bring in guys to fit the scheme, and then try to fix it all in one offseason with a new Coaching staff, you're going to have a bad time.

 

Rex didn't have an entire upheaval of the system, but he changed enough to make the switch from an already established 4-3 defense systemically different. You add this with the fact that Rex is a player's coach and all the guys love having him, change to McD or any kind of regulated coach is also an adjustment. Rex created a tumor, yes, but the underlying issues were there before he arrived in not sustaining talent development pipelines at key positions.

 

It's alright guys we gotta rebuild for a change, not just piecemeal it over 17 years and hope each little change every year is the one that helps us build a perennial contender.

Edited by ctk232

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9 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Let the rehabilitation of Rex Ryan's reputation begin. The standard wisdom: Rex took a Top 5 defense and single-handedly ruined it. McDermott came in and restored order.

A few of us liked to point out that it wasn't all on Rex. The defensive talent started to disappear. (Who's left from those Schwartz defenses we loved? Kyle and Preston Brown.) 

And now: the worst defenses we've ever seen in Buffalo.

Discuss.

Loose discipline led to a lot of it 

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What is interesting in all this is how pro coaches in the NFL really only know how to do it one way--their way--whatever that way may be.

 

They should all be smart enough to coach in 100 different ways and adjust to what players they have on their roster.


But they aren't and they don't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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