National Anthem (Cameron Jefferson)

[Boatdrinks]

Not me.

Universal Standing for the aanthem never started in the NFL until 2009.

So did you still support the 90s teams when they did other things instead if standing

Everyone stood to the best of my recollection. There is no " universal standing" in the NFL : they don't mandate it now and didn't in the '90s . Anyway, I believe the Bills player in question here stood for the anthem. So he raised his arm. Maybe he was stretching it or reaching out to a deceased relative that was in the military. I don't know why he did it and I don't care to know. There is no more need for the media to talk about this than if a guy sneezed during the anthem. It's not a story. As long as he's standing like everyone else, I don't care and I don't see anything disrespectful about it.

Sorry not with you, So your upset that a guy raised his arm during the national anthem in silent protest?

 

The best part is the way the media is covering this. They refuse to talk about why Jefferson had his arm raised in the first place and only talk about the act of what he did.

 

The reality is they shouldn't talk about why. Who cares? I don't need to know why ( or if ) he did something. A media driven bunch of drivel is all this really is.

I agree take the anthem out of the NFL, there really is no need for it.

This is a good idea. Or do what college teams do and keep the teams inside until after the anthem is played. Perfect solution .

[Boatdrinks]

Do you play and stand for the National Anthem before you go off to work every morning? If not maybe you should leave the country as well.

 

I'm fine with leaving the National Anthem as is for sporting events but I got to admit that it doesn't really make sense why we have it for every sporting event.

 

We really shouldn't. I'm starting to think it would be best if we had a two minute period of protest. All in attendance as well as players coaches whomever stand or kneel and raise one arm holding a small flag with a brief summary of their " protest" so we all know what everyone else is protesting. We can either agree or disagree with others views but we'd all get to tell everyone else what we don't like about our country or something that has happened either real or just perceived. Everyone gathered together for entertainment but still letting others know that just because we are in the same venue doesn't mean we agree on anything. Then with that order of business taken care of, proceed to watch our heroes bash each other around for three hours.

I think this is true, which is what somehow makes the anthem an appropriate protest venue for those who, for whatever reason, believe that the country is failing to live up to its ideal of equal rights for all.

The Country isn't failing to live up to its ideal. Perhaps some of its citizens do, but the Country doesn't fail at this.

I honestly don't care. Sit, stand, do cart wheels, yell at people during the singing. All I care about is the police being held accountable for their actions.

I'm more outraged about criminals that are not held accountable for their actions and continue to commit crimes, than a few Police.( who are always subject to an investigation at minimum) I believe the Officer in the Castile shooting went to trial and was found not guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. What is un American about that? Un American is being convicted before trial by the likes of CNN and those that gobble up this nonsense. Edited September 2, 2017 by Boatdrinks

[ALF]

Cleveland police, EMS unions refuse to hold flag at game after Browns players kneel

CLEVELAND.(WJW) -- There is new fallout from the fierce debate over Cleveland Browns players kneeling during the national anthem.

Cleveland safety forces have backed out of a plan to hold a large flag on the field for the opening game.

"This hit home with me. I am a veteran, an 8-year veteran with the U.S. Marine Corp. So, to disrespect the flag by taking a knee is not something I was going to be a part of," Nemeth said.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/09/01/cleveland-police-ems-unions-refuse-to-hold-flag-at-game-after-browns-players-kneel/23194151/

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just do your job and don't make schit up along the way. I mean, LEO's are supposed to be the enforcement arm of the law, you would think they would know the law the best:

 

This is just crazy:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?deferJs=true&outputType=default-article&utm_term=.431fceff7a45

 

Is this the tip of the iceberg, or just an overzealous cop?

 

Any other job and the person would be fired on the spot. Yet the unions protect, put them on admin leave and shuffle it under the rug. What are departments taking lessons from the Catholic Church on how to shuffle things under the rug? Instead of getting Type A's that are on power trips, how about actually schooling LEO's about the laws that they should know better than the back of their hand? Heck it is in their job title: "Law Enforcement Officer

 

Just do your job and know the law one is enforcing. That is only reasonable. Yet, the pissing contest will surely start and end with the person who controls the playground. Guess who's' playground society has become, not you the people... But the government's and who does the government have enforcing for them?

Edited September 2, 2017 by ExiledInIllinois

[Kelly the Dog]

why can't you? Jesus Christ, I've had it done to me and done it to many in my life. My dad included for the most part.

Liar. Ha.

 

Everyone, all of us we know have done something heinous or not righteous in their life. It's human nature. Do you really think there is anyone on earth who has never did something really bad?

 

The greatest men and women you have ever met in your life have ridiculous skeletons. Do you really believe the one man or woman you know who is the best example of the human spirit doesn't have something only they know or others were never told. It's human nature.

 

The best anyone can do, religious or not, is to try to not be a dick. There are no perfect people. No.such thing.

[BringBackOrton]

Kelly the champion of racial equality basically admitted that if his best buddy was an undercover Neo-Nazi, he wouldn't do anything about it besides give him some schit at poker night on Tuesdays. I'm sure minorities around the US are grateful for you taking charge on the battlefield for them.

 

Laugh out loud funny! This topic is beautiful.

Edited September 2, 2017 by jmc12290

[BillsFan4]

Find a link to this in the "There's No Voter Fraud " thread:

 

More than 14,000 votes were cast in Chicago during the 2016 general election than there were voters to cast them, based on separate figures released by the Chicago Board of Elections, the chairman of the Chicago Republican Party has reported.

Chris Cleveland told the Chicago Wire that "on a whim," he filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request with the board, which provided him with a list of 1,101,178 people who voted in the general election. An earlier post on the board's website said that 1,115,664 votes had been cast.

 

Chris Cleveland, chairman, Chicago Republican Party

 

 

There should never be more votes than voters, Cleveland said. Every ballot cast should be recorded against a registered voter.

 

There is plenty of proof that voter fraud is rare (with most that do it getting caught) -

 

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

 

http://www.snopes.com/tag/voter-fraud/

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/26/fact-check-trumps-bogus-voter-fraud-claims-revisited/97080242/

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/trumps-bogus-voter-fraud-claims/

 

https://www.electioninnovation.org/news/2017/5/1/just-the-facts-on-fraud

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attorneys-said-no-evidence-voter-fraud-2017-1

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/315844-ryan-no-evidence-of-mass-voter-fraud-as-trump-claimed

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/322522-states-find-little-evidence-of-voter-fraud-in-months-after-election

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/01/voting-conspiracies/

 

I could link plenty more sources. This is just what I came up with doing a quick search. I tried to use sources that were considered credible and/or had links to verify their information. I could not find any credible sources to back up your claim of the Chicago voter fraud, however. There were very few sources claiming this and none were from what I would call a credible source - Americanthinker, freerepublic, ussa, tigerdroppings were the only sources I could find claiming this and none seemed to provide any hard evidence to back it up. I didn't try to do any real in depth research into it but It all seemed to be based off what that Chris Cleveland guy said. But they provided no actual proof to back up his claims.

Edited September 2, 2017 by BillsFan4

[boyst]

Liar. Ha.

 

Everyone, all of us we know have done something heinous or not righteous in their life. It's human nature. Do you really think there is anyone on earth who has never did something really bad?

 

The greatest men and women you have ever met in your life have ridiculous skeletons. Do you really believe the one man or woman you know who is the best example of the human spirit doesn't have something only they know or others were never told. It's human nature.

 

The best anyone can do, religious or not, is to try to not be a dick. There are no perfect people. No.such thing.

clearly you don't know.my skeletons. Jeez. And I thought everyone did.

[IDBillzFan]

If people did what you are requiring them to do there would be very little racism, misogyny, drug abuse, etc. there would, of course be a lot more murders and broken families and few people with friends and probably civil war, but not as much racism.

 

I don't know if there are a lot more murders, but since the middle of Obama's time to now, I've seen politics have more families spending less time together, people with friends on Facebook getting into ridiculous battles to the point of ending friendships, and I don't know if you've noticed but if someone doesn't take a real stand against Antifa and Alt-Right, a civil war isn't the craziest idea.

 

It won't be north and south, though. It'll be left and right, and it will end quickly because, let's face it, you should never bring a gay couple looking for a wedding cake to a gun fight.

Edited September 2, 2017 by LABillzFan

[DC Tom]

There is plenty of proof that voter fraud is rare (with most that do it getting caught) -

 

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

 

http://www.snopes.com/tag/voter-fraud/

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/26/fact-check-trumps-bogus-voter-fraud-claims-revisited/97080242/

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/trumps-bogus-voter-fraud-claims/

 

https://www.electioninnovation.org/news/2017/5/1/just-the-facts-on-fraud

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attorneys-said-no-evidence-voter-fraud-2017-1

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/315844-ryan-no-evidence-of-mass-voter-fraud-as-trump-claimed

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/322522-states-find-little-evidence-of-voter-fraud-in-months-after-election

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/01/voting-conspiracies/

 

I could link plenty more sources. This is just what I came up with doing a quick search. I tried to use sources that were considered credible and/or had links to verify their information. I could not find any credible sources to back up your claim of the Chicago voter fraud, however. There were very few sources claiming this and none were from what I would call a credible source - Americanthinker, freerepublic, ussa, tigerdroppings were the only sources I could find claiming this and none seemed to provide any hard evidence to back it up. I didn't try to do any real in depth research into it but It all seemed to be based off what that Chris Cleveland guy said. But they provided no actual proof to back up his claims.

 

The problem with those sources is with a statement you yourself made:

 

(with most that do it getting caught)

 

 

You can't claim a behavior is rare based on the rarity of catching the people doing it, not without considering your rate of catching it.

 

Which could very easily be universally poor, because of claims of "It never happens, because we so rarely detect it," so why bother protecting against it?

 

It's a circular argument masking the very simple truth that we have no idea how rare or prevalent voter fraud is, since for various political reasons no one wants to do a real study of it.

 

I don't know if there are a lot more murders, but since the middle of Obama's time to now, I've seen politics have more families spending less time together, people with friends on Facebook getting into ridiculous battles to the point of ending friendships, and I don't know if you've noticed but if someone doesn't take a real stand against Antifa and Alt-Right, a civil war isn't the craziest idea.

 

It won't be north and south, though. It'll be left and right, and it will end quickly because, let's face it, you should never bring a gay couple looking for a wedding cake to a gun fight.

 

It'll be urban vs. rural, actually.

 

Basically left vs. right, philosophically, but with some important sociological and practical differences. I'll be with the people who grow the food, myself.

[Kelly the Dog]

I don't know if there are a lot more murders, but since the middle of Obama's time to now, I've seen politics have more families spending less time together, people with friends on Facebook getting into ridiculous battles to the point of ending friendships, and I don't know if you've noticed but if someone doesn't take a real stand against Antifa and Alt-Right, a civil war isn't the craziest idea.

 

It won't be north and south, though. It'll be left and right, and it will end quickly because, let's face it, you should never bring a gay couple looking for a wedding cake to a gun fight.

Gays are ruthless bastards and bitches.

[IDBillzFan]

It's a circular argument masking the very simple truth that we have no idea how rare or prevalent voter fraud is, since for various political reasons no one wants to do a real study of it.

 

Yes, but other than that, it's pretty rare.

Gays are ruthless bastards and bitches.

 

Only with other gays.

 

(Side note: good to see you over here. I know it's short-lived, but you're the last of the logical left-leaning thinkers.)

[DC Tom]

Gays are ruthless bastards and bitches.

 

"Nobody does revenge like a faggot." - David Gerrold.

 

(He's gay, so that's not un-PC.)

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Only with other gays.

 

(Side note: good to see you over here. I know it's short-lived, but you're the last of the logical left-leaning thinkers.)

Then I am on an island as there surely are none on the right.

[IDBillzFan]

Then I am on an island as there surely are none on the right.

 

You'd be surprised what Trump did to a lot of us.

 

On the upside, every time someone accuses us conservatives of being Trump lovers, we get to honestly admit we didn't vote for him.

[Boatdrinks]

Cleveland police, EMS unions refuse to hold flag at game after Browns players kneel

 

CLEVELAND.(WJW) -- There is new fallout from the fierce debate over Cleveland Browns players kneeling during the national anthem.

 

Cleveland safety forces have backed out of a plan to hold a large flag on the field for the opening game.

 

"This hit home with me. I am a veteran, an 8-year veteran with the U.S. Marine Corp. So, to disrespect the flag by taking a knee is not something I was going to be a part of," Nemeth said.

 

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/09/01/cleveland-police-ems-unions-refuse-to-hold-flag-at-game-after-browns-players-kneel/23194151/

Good for them. I wonder how much their protest will be covered by the talking heads on TV? Seriously , just getting rid of the anthem before games or keeping the players inside during it is looking mighty palatable these days. We are there to watch a game, not some " airing of grievances " type beeeyotch-fest. Edited September 2, 2017 by Boatdrinks

[aussiew]

Do any fellow historians know how and when National Anthems even started? Every country has a flag and a national anthem and almost every one of he anthems is about war/fighting (except Canada). Most countries do not play their anthems before sporting events. I never heard it growing up in Australia.

 

What I don't understand is why so many people go on and on about a few athletes exercising their rights as citizens, but why is only required to stand if you're actually at your seat? lots of folks are still getting food, going potty etc., and they don't stand still and take their hat off. And in addition, when did the hat thingy start? I never saw that until about early 90s. The military don't remove their hats, or put their hand over their heart during the anthem.

 

I'm so bloody confused now.

[DC Tom]

Do any fellow historians know how and when National Anthems even started? Every country has a flag and a national anthem and almost every one of he anthems is about war/fighting (except Canada). Most countries do not play their anthems before sporting events. I never heard it growing up in Australia.

 

What I don't understand is why so many people go on and on about a few athletes exercising their rights as citizens, but why is only required to stand if you're actually at your seat? lots of folks are still getting food, going potty etc., and they don't stand still and take their hat off. And in addition, when did the hat thingy start? I never saw that until about early 90s. The military don't remove their hats, or put their hand over their heart during the anthem.

 

I'm so bloody confused now.

 

In the US, the playing of the anthem before sporting events started in baseball, in the early 1900's (1917, I think) as a reaction to anarcho-terrorism and US entry into World War 1.

 

No, I am not making that up.

[Doc Brown]

 

I don't know if there are a lot more murders, but since the middle of Obama's time to now, I've seen politics have more families spending less time together, people with friends on Facebook getting into ridiculous battles to the point of ending friendships, and I don't know if you've noticed but if someone doesn't take a real stand against Antifa and Alt-Right, a civil war isn't the craziest idea.

 

It won't be north and south, though. It'll be left and right, and it will end quickly because, let's face it, you should never bring a gay couple looking for a wedding cake to a gun fight.

I really am worried about the future of our country as our democracy can't survive without rational discussion and informed discourse in a public realm. More people now hide behind social media and only get their news from biased sources (who profit from being more extreme) that reinforce that their political views are the correct ones. This is filtering down to the politicians who are rewarded by opposing the other side and never compromising. When language breaks down people resort to violence. I don't know if another "civil war" will ever happen in our lifetimes, but I do fear for our future as I don't think there's any way to break this toxic political environment we're in right now. It's only going to get worse.

 

By the way, antifa needs to change their name as I'm assuming 99.9% of the population is anti fascism.

[DC Tom]

I really am worried about the future of our country as our democracy can't survive without rational discussion and informed discourse in a public realm. More people now hide behind social media and only get their news from biased sources (who profit from being more extreme) that reinforce that their political views are the correct ones.

 

I've fallen in love with BBC as compared to American media. Far more "this is what happened" and less "this is what you should think about it" reporting.

 

I'm pretty sure that - eschewing mawky opinionating reports for facts - makes me some sort of a neo-Nazi.